2011-04-22, 02:54 | Link #782 |
Segmentation fault
Join Date: Mar 2011
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what i could say is QB demonstrated and effectively pressured homu with psychological warfare to achieve his goal. he deduced homu's intention and made an educated guess about the peculiar case of madoka. he dropped the bomb and hit the mark. homu is visibly surprised and taken aback. QB dropped something she did not know or did not expect. it's her own doing that a madoka's growing potential. QB hit homu at her weakest.
because of this homu had second thoughts of repeating and about to lose hope in the end. so crafty of this little devil! if QB was a little less clever, the ending could have been different. |
2011-04-22, 08:49 | Link #784 |
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When all is said and done, Kyubey is a picture perfect pragmatist.
He'll do whatever works best for him and his goals, simple as that. His goals are at least somewhat understandable, and certainly not inherently evil. Kyubey's methods, pre-Madoka World, were quite nasty, but now it seems he can achieve his goals by less nefarious means. As such, he's not really an evil character at the point where the anime ends. I have to say that I kind of like how Gen rehabilitated Kyubey without changing the core essence of his character. Gen simply changed the rules of the game, making it so that Kyubey is now best served by sincerely working with the good guys.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-04-22 at 09:01. |
2011-04-22, 08:52 | Link #785 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Brief history review
1)group A says that QB has evil intentions and explains their theory 2)show supports group A claims 3) group A becomes excited.. probably overexcited .. really overexcited 4)group B finds this obnoxious.. forms QB defense force and argues with group A over the semantics of the world evil 5)Discussions are no longer about the show but rather about who is right and wrong on the internet. QB becomes a strawman 6)People start to believe their own propaganda about QB. They develop their own expectations. 7)QB does not react and behave the way they want or expect.. disgruntled people cries of bad writing 8)but someone is still wrong on the internet so arguments and heavy play of semantics continue QB arguments have also been about one thing: internet drama It's too bad really
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2011-04-23, 09:25 | Link #786 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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I know I previously demanded that QB's race be exterminated for their crimes....
But I see why they survived. Madoka's wish, of stopping Witches from being created forwards and backwards in time, means that QB never actually harvested a single Magical Girl for energy. QB's people have been spared harsh punishment because Madoka had actually undone their evil acts entirely via time travel. I guess the logic is that you can't punish someone for something they didn't actually do. Yes, they would have done it again if the option is there, but the fact is their major evil act is simply erase from time as if it was never done. Like it or not, QB is free to do what he likes until he actually hurts anyone. With the magic system now consist of girls fighting monsters, I don't have a case against QB's race anymore.
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2011-04-23, 10:06 | Link #788 | |
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I mean, I agreed that Kyubey circa Original World needed to be stopped, but once the Incubators (of the Original World) are forced to leave Earth, that should be satisfactory, imo. Also, capital punishment is not the only form of punishment. Why not simply imprison Kyubey if a means of doing so is found? I'm sure we could learn invaluable scientific knowledge from him in return for making his stay in captivity a slightly more pleasant one. Anyway, these are now somewhat moot points, but I felt compelled to bring them up given what you wrote.
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2011-04-23, 10:29 | Link #789 |
simp for Lyria
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Screw that. Kyubei is evil. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.", and trying to intentionally regulate power on a universal scale is as absolute as you can get. True evil is one where he who commits evil believes he is righteous. And these Incubators are filling the bill fairly easy.
And to those who say Kyubei's actions are logical and possess no ill intent, I'd like to say that deciphering evil takes emotion. Observe the action and decide(w/emotions) whether it is evil. And I say using young girls to fulfill energy quotas for the universe for your own ambitions is pretty damn evil. And in order to completely erase that evil, every trace of its being needs to be exterminated, else, there is always a chance that the evil will arise, sometimes in a completely unexpected way. |
2011-04-23, 10:32 | Link #790 | ||
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A person who believes what he is doing is righteous is at least motivated by good intentions.
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2011-04-23, 10:34 | Link #791 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Edit: Damn, ninja'd by Triple R. And nice point on the rationale of Madoka being evil. Last edited by Akashin; 2011-04-23 at 10:36. Reason: Ninja'd |
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2011-04-23, 10:53 | Link #792 | ||
simp for Lyria
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I didn't know Madoka was trying to regulate the great powers of the universe . She is not evil because her actions are not evil. You should try to look deeper than the surface of the quote I just mentioned.
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2011-04-23, 11:09 | Link #793 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Yes, the fact that he uses people is evil; note, however, that it is the action itself that is evil. He has good intentions behind them and simply fails to understand why it is wrong; thus, he is only evil from a strictly human perspective. This is why he is painted as an antagonist by the story, which depicts him from a human perspective. But once you look at the situation away from that, it becomes increasingly less black and white. |
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2011-04-23, 11:17 | Link #794 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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The problem with this line of reasoning is of course, 'why are you so absolutely convinced that you're in the right? Doesn't that make you just like Kyubey?' You claim 'they are actually evil', but that's just an opinion: the fact that there are people who disagree with this shows that it's not something objective. If you think that causing evil with good intentions is the worst sort of evil, then that makes pretty much everyone potentially the worst type of evil unless someone can prove beyond a doubt that their system of morality is absolutely right. I guess it's an issue of consequentialism vs virtue ethics, which I'm not going to go into. 'Good' and 'evil' are all wooly concepts anyway. On that note, Incubators are definitely utilitarian, which is a valid ethical system in modern society. |
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2011-04-23, 11:17 | Link #795 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Let me repeat; QB does not care if he killed every human on Earth. If you say that isn't evil, then nothing I do would be evil either. Evil either exists or it doesn't. Sociopath who have no emotions don't get an exemption. Quote:
"It's okay because he isn't human" is not a defence when he is interacting with humans.
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2011-04-23, 11:22 | Link #796 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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I agree with you, for the most part. So either they're both horribly evil or they're both acceptable. By wanting to kill off the incubators, you're either using their horrible evil as an excuse to inflict the same horrible evil on them so they can't do it to you first, or you're doing something perfectly okay to their race because they're doing something perfectly okay to humans. |
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2011-04-23, 11:31 | Link #797 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Further, it is a case of defending the galaxy as a whole. If they are willing to murder humanity, they are willing to murder other alien lifeforms too. From that angle, it is about keeping the peace in the galaxy by removing a clear and present danger. And finally, by QB's own rules it is perfectly acceptable for us to kill them, as murder isn't a crime on his planet. It's just happened that Madoka is too nice to do it. What is your reasoning to suggest we should "play nice" with QB's race? Because if you suggest they were not our enemy, you need to watch the show again. Madoka changed the past so I can't pursue this matter any further, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
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2011-04-23, 11:35 | Link #798 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Where did I say that it's okay since he isn't human? I don't believe I said he was good, nor that his actions are in any way "okay". My point is that he's only evil so long as you hold him up to human morality. For the sake of this story, to the main characters, he is evil. I never disputed that, and I believe I actually said exactly that. My point is that once you step back and consider the universe as a whole, it isn't fair to say he is undeniably evil, since by his own moral standard he is not. Thus you cannot call him pure evil, since he is only evil so long as you look at him from a single perspective. He's a confusing character to judge properly, and I've probably contradicted myself somewhere here. Whatever. |
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2011-04-23, 11:37 | Link #799 | |||
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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(Well, humanity isn't a 'clear and present danger' but it is indeed about sacrificing for the good of the whole). Quote:
Even so... Quote:
The QB race is not 'a clear and present danger'. The universe will gain no benefit from wiping them out. Why do they need to be punished? What benefit will anyone gain from that besides a tiny blue planet of humans getting some sort of emotional satisfaction? |
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2011-04-23, 11:43 | Link #800 |
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When hanging around the space nerds, one quickly realizes that aliens will really be alien. That doesn't go for just the physical, but their thought processes and morality as well. They'll be so different, that we'll really have to struggle to understand them. If you think it is bad now, with different groups of humans fighting with other groups of humans and not understanding them, well, you haven't seen anything.
So with an alien lifeform, our morality is as equally pointless as theirs. The only question that remains, then, is: "Do we do what is best for us, fighting for it if need be, or submit to what the aliens say is best?" in that light, ascribing any morality to Kyube is a fool's errand. Either go along with him because you agree entropy is an issue and you're willing to sacrifice a few lives to deal with that and buy our incredible civilization... or declare that you'd rather remain naked in a cave, rather than sacrifice anyone, and thus fight against Kyube. I suppose the third option would be to try and find a way for the two races to coexist which would require compromise, which is what Madoka ultimately could be seen as doing. Girls still fight and die, although they don't turn into witches anymore. And the Kyube's still get energy, although not as much anymore. Decide for yourself which approach you favor and why. And decide what principles you feel are worth sacrificing in the name of compromise. |
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