(L) Genjitsu Shugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki (How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom)

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by stray

If you want to continue this conversation I'd appreciate you quoting the actual source or wherever you're getting this from because none of Ginger's slaves were portrayed as "debt slaves" at all and none were really set free aside from San and the sisters who were taken as wives, which is kind of fucked up in its own way.

Well here are some parts from LN v04, relating to the plot around Ginger (there are also more, but i couldn't immediately remember were they are mentioned).

I’m Ginger Camus, age 17. I’m from the Elfrieden Kingdom... Oh, I guess it’s the Kingdom of Friedonia now, huh. Anyway, I’m a slave trader in the capital of the Kingdom of Friedonia.

...Yeah. I’m a slave trader.

Not exactly a respectable job, huh? It’s people buying and selling people, after all.

Well, aside from the convict slaves, most of them were economic slaves who couldn’t afford to eat and didn’t want to go hungry, or who had sold themselves because they needed money; so, in a way, it could have been seen as a sort of welfare system, but... it wasn’t a job you could do without having thick skin.

Me? Mine was thin, you know? Like, paper thin, okay? I fought with stomach pain every day.

According to San, the treatment of slaves differed from trader to trader.

Technically, because the system of economic slaves was in part a system of social welfare to at least keep people from dying, violence and sexual abuse were forbidden. (Though some slaves included the option of sex in order to sell themselves for more than double the price.) However, when it came to how far those rules were respected, or if they were respected at all, that depended largely on the state of public order in the area and their owner’s morals.

For instance, if a female slave was raped by her master, even if she lodged a complaint over it, and even if that noble were punished, because that woman would have no assets, she would ultimately just end up back at the slave trader waiting to be purchased again. That being the case, the woman might think it better to silently endure it. (Unless her life were in danger; that would be another matter entirely.)

In the case of male slaves, they were mostly purchased to be used as manual labor. Even if they were worked until they collapsed, it would be difficult to prove that that was a case of abuse.

In the world of slaves, that sort of darkness ran rampant. The slave traders themselves also came in many shapes and sizes.

Some treated their slaves like animals, not feeding them decent food. They permitted them to wear nothing more than their collars, and on cold nights, they wouldn’t give them even a scrap of cloth as a blanket. Even if their slaves fell sick, they would let the sickness run its course. They had exclusive contracts with nobles with certain proclivities, and no one knew what happened to the women they sent them...

The list went on.

It seemed there were still a large number of slave traders with those sorts of dark rumors swirling around them. It seemed the new king had been alarmed by the current situation, and a number of them had been apprehended, but some were still out there in the rural areas and in the dark places in the cities.

Compared to that, Grandpa had apparently treated his slaves well. They were given clothes to wear, even if the clothes were shabby, and they were fed properly. He didn’t abuse them, and if they fell ill, he looked after them. He also didn’t sell them off to any overly strange customers. It seems he was a decent slave trader.

Rather than focus on the purchase price, I was concerned with how the slaves would be treated afterwards. There were quite a few who said, “I want to employ them as bureaucrats, so I’m willing to release them from slavery.” Those people were given preference when I set them up with slaves. I didn’t sell to those I could see clearly had ill intent, and decided to keep relatives together as much as possible.

For the mother with the infant...

“I’ll release her from slavery! The child can come, too! So, please, I’m begging you, have her come to my domain!”

...is what one female knight begged me, half-crying, so I let her buy them. She had apparently become a knight because she’d admired the gallant Princess Liscia, but her abilities were completely biased toward the martial side of things, and she had no idea how to manage her domain. That was why she was in a desperate hurry to find good help. She seemed like a good sort, and I figured they’d be fine with her.

The slaves kept getting sold off one after another like that, but... the ones that really surprised me were those two sister slaves.

It seemed one young noble was so enamored with them, he would not only set them free, but also wanted to take them as his wives. What was more, this noble was apparently from a fairly major family.

“Were you not here to look for potential magistrates and bureaucrats?” I asked.

“Of course that was my original intent, but I was smitten by their beauty and intellect,” said the noble. “My house is presently in a situation where it is best that we do not form blood ties with other houses. I am sure that it would reassure His Majesty if I were to take a wife of common birth. Besides, when I think of the posting that awaits me, I cannot say that I see the daughters of any other house wanting to wed me.”

That noble’s name was Piltory Saracen. He was apparently the young head of a fairly major lineage in this country, the House of Saracen. He was passionate, and seemed to be every bit the affable young man he looked like.

Why does a man of his stature want slaves? I wondered. Probably, his situation and post had something to do with it.

“Um, I can’t have you take them anywhere too dangerous...” I began.

“I want to assure you, I simply have to leave the country for a short time,” he said. “If they are to be my wives, I swear I will defend them with my very life. Let me pledge here and now that they shall never perish before I myself do!”

“U-Uh... For now, let’s hear what the two of them have to say about it.”

I found myself overwhelmed by his passion and allowed Sir Piltory to meet with the sisters. It turned out, the sisters were quite fond of the young man, too. He was handsome, affable, and rich, all of which made him a real catch, but it seemed the clincher was that the two of them would be able to stay together. They were a little worried that Sir Piltory’s posting was going to be in a **********, **********, but the two still decided to go with him.

Well, I can tell he’s definitely a good guy, so if the two of them are all right with it, I guess I am, too, I thought.

Piltory Saracen is the young guy, who tried to go against Souma, when he was trying to punish Castor & Carla
Also hid a part, as its not mentioned in Anime yet

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

If you want to continue this conversation I'd appreciate you quoting the actual source or wherever you're getting this from because none of Ginger's slaves were portrayed as "debt slaves" at all and none were really set free aside from San and the sisters who were taken as wives, which is kind of fucked up in its own way.I'm sure that comparison made sense in your head but like... did you miss the entire opioid crisis? While marijuana was a schedule 1 drug big pharma was pumping out oxycontin and convincing doctors to prescribe it to people like candy. Which is completely off topic but reinforces my point that if there's a loophole its going to be exploited.

Actually doesn't matter that much here. As I said, it's not a one-to-one comparison. For one thing, drugs are addictive and people that start using will feel compelled to use more. Slavery is something that can develop an economic dependency, which is quite different. Things like exploiting loopholes to give people addictive drugs isn't really applicable to the situation, and anyway if you're going to say "it's bad because people will try and find loopholes to abuse" then there's really no point doing anything as history has shown people will always find loopholes to exploit. But putting it under their control still gives Souma more freedom to manipulate things and guide the system toward a direction where economic dependencies will gradually diminish and the benefits of slave labor will disappear until there's no real point not hiring them as plain employees.

Either way, the show is clearly very idealized. Completely rebuilding a neighborhood and eliminating the criminal enterprises that were run there is plain ridiculous. You have to accept that he's capable of stretching "limited" resources further than is realistically possible to accept the series anyway, and if he's able to do what he did with the slums, I don't have that much difficulty believing that gaining control of the slave trade he will be able to manipulate it the way he's planning.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

Piltory Saracen is the young guy, who tried to go against Souma, when he was trying to punish Castor & Carla

I knew that much from Reddit.

I see literally nothing about "debt slaves" (or anything remotely resembling indentured servitude) in what you posted though? Everything that Ginger says implies that slavery is permanent unless the slaver is abusive or the slaver decides to set them free (which Ginger never did). Souma's plan still boils down to wishful thinking.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Actually doesn't matter that much here. As I said, it's not a one-to-one comparison.

Respectfully, the comparison sucks dude, and if I even try to acknowledge it any further its going to completely derail the thread and get us modded again. Stick to discussing the series, not misguided analogies.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I knew that much from Reddit.

I see literally nothing about "debt slaves" (or anything remotely resembling indentured servitude) in what you posted though? Everything that Ginger says implies that slavery is permanent unless the slaver is abusive or the slaver decides to set them free (which Ginger never did). Souma's plan still boils down to wishful thinking.Respectfully, the comparison sucks dude, and if I even try to acknowledge it any further its going to completely derail the thread and get us modded again. Stick to discussing the series, not misguided analogies.

All I was saying was that taking administrative control of a system may “legitimize” something, but it also gives the government a lot more power to regulate it and gradually dismantle it. Slavery is already “normal” so there’s no point complaining that he’s “normalizing” it. What he’s doing does, however, keep it under his thumb and put him in a position where he can better move it the way he wants.

[Tenzen12]

Souma made people who did not want slaves buy them in bulk. So there is indeed point in complaining about normalizing it. Only thing that can help transit from slave driven economy to different kind peacefully is curb demand and nothing else will ever work. Souma does direct opposite by enlarging demand and even if he now runs majority of slave trade, that gives some control only over supply, which is basically irrelevant as you can't maintain monopoly unless you keep selling.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Souma made people who did not want slaves buy them in bulk. So there is indeed point in complaining about normalizing it. Only thing that can help transit from slave driven economy to different kind peacefully is curb demand and nothing else will ever work. Souma does direct opposite by enlarging demand and even if he now runs majority of slave trade, that gives some control only over supply, which is basically irrelevant as you can't maintain monopoly unless you keep selling.

I can't make absolute promises, but for now I don't intend to reply to you after this here. You're completely fixated on one single action that, at that one time, caused an increase in the demand for slaves and thus, at least it seems to me, nothing he can possibly do from this point will in your book do anything but make the demand increase and the trade become stronger. If no action can possibly mean anything due to that one singular act, then there's really no point in talking about anything.

However, if I understood right, the reason they wanted to buy a bunch of slaves was because they required educated labor that could read, write, and do basic math. With his education program going into full swing, the supply of non-slave labor that can fulfill this role will rapidly increase and instead of needing slaves they'll simply need workers such as the people in the slums. Thus, the demand for slaves should not increase from here.

More to the point, from what we've seen, I don't think Souma now controls "the majority" of the slave trade in his nation. If he only controls the majority, I do agree that he won't likely be able to do what he wants to do. But it looks to me like he's set it up so that the government holds full control of the legal slave trade. As such, people can purchase slaves from him, or they can find illegal traders, but if they have a legitimate purpose for the labor they'd probably do much better going through the legitimate channels. So yes, if you are right and he doesn't hold full control then he can't control things the way he wants. But if I'm right and he's set things up so that he has full control, then he most certainly will have the capacity to gradually manipulate the markets and the requirements, decreasing the benefit of going with slave labor and increasing the availability and value of alternatives until there's little to no point in choosing slaves and little to no difference in the life and benefits given to slaves versus free people. It's not any more realistic than completely erasing the crime and drug business running in a slum and turning it into a beautiful neighborhood where people don't even have to pay for their houses, but at the least it looks like he's aiming in a direction that's just as "logical" as the processes he applied there.

[CrowKenobi]

Closing the thread for about a day to let everyone cool off about the whole slavery discussion (which is finished).


EDIT: Thread reopened.

[BWTraveller]

Well either way, this ep definitely drove in to me just how unrealistic this story can get. I mean, can anyone really buy that a guy could actually tear down an entire slum, rebuild it from the ground up, erase all the criminal enterprises set up there, and create a paradise like that? If that was possible our world would be such a happier place.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well either way, this ep definitely drove in to me just how unrealistic this story can get. I mean, can anyone really buy that a guy could actually tear down an entire slum, rebuild it from the ground up, erase all the criminal enterprises set up there, and create a paradise like that? If that was possible our world would be such a happier place.

I mean, it depends on how big & complex the slum is. A (former) mayor of Surabaya city in my country was actually able to do what Soma did for what was formerly an infamous "Dolly" neighborhood, the biggest prostitution center in SEA (+ some drugs businesses) and turned it into a bright, clean & healthy place mostly free of shady businesses and a safe place for children to grow up in. Even more incredible is the fact that some of the whorehouses in Dolly were backed up by some powerful people. But the mayor still managed to clean that place up anyway partly due to her sheer iron will to make the city into a better place.

So yeah. I don't really complain about Soma's feat of cleaning up a certain slum area filled with filth & crime in this episode coz I have seen an example of it IRL.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well either way, this ep definitely drove in to me just how unrealistic this story can get. I mean, can anyone really buy that a guy could actually tear down an entire slum, rebuild it from the ground up, erase all the criminal enterprises set up there, and create a paradise like that? If that was possible our world would be such a happier place.

What gets me is that he did all off-screen and so thoroughly that they can just treat it matter-of-factly with barely any real detail.

I want to see Souma struggling a little more and maybe not always making the best political decisions for one reason or another instead of just saying "Oh, I fixed practically everything."

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I mean, it depends on how big & complex the slum is. A (former) mayor of Surabaya city in my country was actually able to do what Soma did for what was formerly an infamous "Dolly" neighborhood, the biggest prostitution center in SEA (+ some drugs businesses) and turned it into a bright, clean & healthy place mostly free of shady businesses and a safe place for children to grow up in. Even more incredible is the fact that some of the whorehouses in Dolly were backed up by some powerful people. But the mayor still managed to clean that place up anyway partly due to her sheer iron will to make the city into a better place.

So yeah. I don't really complain about Soma's feat of cleaning up a certain slum area filled with filth & crime in this episode coz I have seen an example of it IRL.

How long did that take though? Even just taking care of the residents while the buildings are all torn down and rebuilt would be difficult and take a lot of time and money. He’s supposed to be running a tight ship here.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

How long did that take though? Even just taking care of the residents while the buildings are all torn down and rebuilt would be difficult and take a lot of time and money. He’s supposed to be running a tight ship here.

Cleaning the neighborhood from illegal activities took months. The place became bright, clean & safe within a year and it keeps getting better & better each following year.

When it comes to Soma building stuffs, magic exist in this world, and the buildings are much simpler than modern buildings. Shouldn't be that difficult for someone who can build a fortress overnight.

[Anh_Minh]

I wonder if it helps that he got rid of a bunch of shady nobles? And confiscated all their stuff.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I wonder if it helps that he got rid of a bunch of shady nobles? And confiscated all their stuff.

Now that you mention it, it probably did. Having close to zero resistance from powerful nobles should speed things up.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I mean, it depends on how big & complex the slum is. A (former) mayor of Surabaya city in my country was actually able to do what Soma did for what was formerly an infamous "Dolly" neighborhood, the biggest prostitution center in SEA (+ some drugs businesses) and turned it into a bright, clean & healthy place mostly free of shady businesses and a safe place for children to grow up in. Even more incredible is the fact that some of the whorehouses in Dolly were backed up by some powerful people. But the mayor still managed to clean that place up anyway partly due to her sheer iron will to make the city into a better place.

So yeah. I don't really complain about Soma's feat of cleaning up a certain slum area filled with filth & crime in this episode coz I have seen an example of it IRL.

It obviously can be done. Destroy slum and replace it with nice lawful community. That said those criminals, homeless and drug addicts doesnt dissapear. They just move elsewhere.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Cleaning the neighborhood from illegal activities took months. The place became bright, clean & safe within a year and it keeps getting better & better each following year.

When it comes to Soma building stuffs, magic exist in this world, and the buildings are much simpler than modern buildings. Shouldn't be that difficult for someone who can build a fortress overnight.

Feels like more of a show and tell than a tell not show moment.

[BWTraveller]

Very well, I’ll accept it as within the realm of possibility. Doesn’t change that it’s a huge feat and kind of hard to buy. It’s sort of like Frontier said. The way it’s presented, the way he doesn’t seem to screw up, it just seems a little too perfect. I don’t mind this, it’s just sort of establishing the mindset I take when watching it. I look at it as a setup where his plans will succeed. He might not be worshipped by all powers that be, but he’s not going to lose even to the degree that some other isekai protagonists do. This is part of why I was so easily able to accept his actions in other areas too as if he’s aiming to achieve a goal through a certain path then he will do so. Not much point worrying over it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Very well, I’ll accept it as within the realm of possibility. Doesn’t change that it’s a huge feat and kind of hard to buy. It’s sort of like Frontier said. The way it’s presented, the way he doesn’t seem to screw up, it just seems a little too perfect. I don’t mind this, it’s just sort of establishing the mindset I take when watching it. I look at it as a setup where his plans will succeed. He might not be worshipped by all powers that be, but he’s not going to lose even to the degree that some other isekai protagonists do. This is part of why I was so easily able to accept his actions in other areas too as if he’s aiming to achieve a goal through a certain path then he will do so. Not much point worrying over it.

Considering your previous comment said Soma's feat of cleaning up slums being "unrealistic" makes wonder: is there no examples of any mayor or governor cleaning up slums or crime-ridden neighborhood in your Texas state or any other states in America? I'm actually quite surprised hearing an American thinking that what's Soma did for the slums is unrealistic .

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Considering your previous comment said Soma's feat of cleaning up slums being "unrealistic" makes wonder: is there no examples of any mayor or governor cleaning up slums or crime-ridden neighborhood in your Texas state or any other states in America? I'm actually quite surprised hearing an American thinking that what's Soma did for the slums is unrealistic .

I'm sure there are cases. Just nothing as fast as Souma. It's hard work to get everyone to move out for a while so you can tear down the whole place and rebuild it from the ground up, and much harder to erase gang activity. If he did it over the space of several years, I'd buy it. But maybe it's the media I've seen, I generally see organized crime as something very difficult to stamp out, especially in a place where people are struggling like a slum or ghetto.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'm sure there are cases. Just nothing as fast as Souma. It's hard work to get everyone to move out for a while so you can tear down the whole place and rebuild it from the ground up, and much harder to erase gang activity. If he did it over the space of several years, I'd buy it. But maybe it's the media I've seen, I generally see organized crime as something very difficult to stamp out, especially in a place where people are struggling like a slum or ghetto.

Sometimes, all that it takes to clean a neighborhood as fast as possible is an honest ruler who actually cares for the people instead of political interests.

The (former) Surabaya mayor that I mentioned before is someone special herself. She was awarded the 3rd best mayor in the world in 2015 after all of her feats & achievements of governing Surabaya.