Syosetsuka ni Narou Discussion Thread

[pervypig]

^ Add thereto the fact that there are production skills available either unique to the MC or extremely rare - and then there's the modern-world knowledge to produce never-seen-before goods... You know crap has gotten too hard to swallow when the MC can mass-produce legendary weapons from a farm...

Why can't pple be a lil' more creative and take a few step back, add a couple more problems for MCs?

[kari-no-sugata II]

dragon1412, what do you mean "now" ?

Personally, I don't enjoy bashing people. I do vent a bit from time to time but I try to be constructive. I also try to bear in mind that WNs in general are mostly written by total amatures who are posting their work for free so I try not to expect too much. That being said, it does feel a bit frustrating when it feels like the author isn't really even trying to make an effort - ie do proper research on novel writing beforehand. A bit too often it feels like the author doesn't really have any tangible vision or plan for their work.

I rarely read R18 novels mostly because reading actual sex scenes is often quite dull. If there's some real feelings or tension there then it's another matter - something "The Marquis’ Eldest Son’s Lascivious Story" does quite well. In short, I care much more about the quality of the writing than the actual content.

Regarding world-building, I think it's sadly overlooked. You can make an interesting story simply by thinking through the consequences of things and focusing on an element. If the author doesn't care about the world-building or likely consequences then it's unlikely the readers will as well. Ditto the characters - write characters (even minor ones) as proper individuals, not a collection of traits.

I like the whole fantasy genre because it's very flexible and can do just about anything, in theory. But it's quite rare for WN authors to explore things in new and interesting ways.

[lokoxDZz]

Imo, i don't blame isekai genre for being bad any genre that start being mass done will give tons and tons of bad works, not to mention to me most of works in any genres are at most average its not that easy to find something thats really good, i never see any incentive for authors to bother into exploring their works and bringing new stuff, not to mention even if they follow template some authors still manage to make money out of it

I blame all of this on bad use of capitalism in overdoing quantity over qualtiy all the damn time

[dragon1412]

^^ It got a lot more heated in recent posts lol,

Generally, I found the issues with these WN always start with world buildings, the fetishes is what came after and generally when the author try to write along, the world building come apart at the seam while trying to progress the story scope.

I mean, let us be honest, the Harem and super power School trope has been done to death, but we don't bash it as much as Isekai, since those tend to have better world building. And it's something interesting I noticed as well, Isekai tend to make a lot of copycat since making an Isekai with loose law and conditions is easy. While modern based story or scifi like mecha, are much harder since by nature they required a lot more thought into the world itself. I don't really mind if there is no original or new stuff invented, but good writing and planning can easily overcame a lot of the issues mentioned, basically, make people beside MC and his group less NPC-ish. You can make a slave harem story well enough if you actually provided the individualism of each characters well, and make MC less allrounder, since it would give room for the slaves to shine. For example, get an Alchemist MC that can't fight or weak at fight, his buying slaves, and then using potions and money to equip them to fill out the role for him is a good way to create a balance story. I mean, You want to make MC all-rounder when MC is solo, but if MC have teams or have someway to ensure loyalty, it is much better to give some of the role to others, worst offender is again, CN novel, i mean, the MC there is so perfect that the girls seem more like Pokemon to catch for despite never using them.

It make me remember that I used to try to write a mecha novel, with MC travels to various planets and getting to know many girls and guys along the way, but ultimately gave up in planning stage since it was getting hard to build some sort of unified organizations at least to be MC contact points.

[wuhugm]

Isekai Rant again :

The Plants/Herbs Harvesting Quest
Usually ingredients for potion and stuffs
Why is this quest still exist?
A company or a branch of government would make fields of them already or at least ensure a steady supplies coz they are so important
Why depend on inefficient low level adventurers?

[sasuke706]

When a reason is given (usually they aren't) it's that the plants don't adapt well to cultivation. Some reason or another that they can only grow in the wild.
Being an unreliable source, the government would focus on other more stable medical means. Usually just magic.

[dragon1412]

Depend really, I mean, it could just be they are so many that there isn't a need to cultivate, or much more simpler, a small potion maker commissioned for them, and big one already have merchants and goverment provide a stable supply, so only small shop or the local store that required it and the amount require isn't that big, I mean, it is actually not that bad in my eyes

[kari-no-sugata II]

Unless the plants can only grow in a magic field or something then probably better to dig up the entire plant, including the roots and soil and put it in a pot and keep growing it locally. Far far more cost effective. You'd think a planet expert would be able to do such a thing, particularly someone who can make magic potions as they should be able to use magic. Literal green fingers!

This isn't even especially novel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse#History

The idea of growing plants in environmentally controlled areas has existed since Roman times. The Roman emperor Tiberius ate a cucumber-like vegetable daily. The Roman gardeners used artificial methods (similar to the greenhouse system) of growing to have it available for his table every day of the year. Cucumbers were planted in wheeled carts which were put in the sun daily, then taken inside to keep them warm at night. The cucumbers were stored under frames or in cucumber houses glazed with either oiled cloth known as specularia or with sheets of selenite (a.k.a. lapis specularis), according to the description by Pliny the Elder.

In 聖女の魔力は万能です medicinal plants are cultivated on a mass scale. (Though rather plot conveniently nobody thought to use them for anything else)

[Garn]

The problem I see is that these missions are considered low level and low paid, in general has no logic that they appear in peaceful areas no matter if they are low-level plants.
-First, all plants must be magical because they have abnormal effects, the most obvious being the effect speed and the other the effect itself.
-Therefore, plants should grow in areas of magical concentration regardless of whether they are considered low level or that their effect is poor.
-Monsters or magical beasts always grow, develop or appear in areas of magical concentration, and depending on these areas their level of danger.

^As far as I remember, like some animals, not all plants are easy to domesticate or their domestication poses a complex process that is not worth it.

[Kyureki]

While we're all ranting, something I've been noticing over the years and has been making me gradually read less and less WN these days is the general lack of good story writing.

And by that I mean the story is often extremely monotonous and bland with little to no build up to any sort of climax of any kind. This gets especially bad with the dime a dozen isekai stuff where there isn't really much of any kind of enforced event like with stuff set in a modern day school.

Combine that with flat characters and/or the MC not really interacting with other people outside when necessary and it just gets really dull and boring very quickly.

That said, at least some of the ones that get published, the editor does a good job of getting the author to fix most of these problems, so the ones that have some promise get a little salvation.

[kari-no-sugata II]

I think a common problem for isekai worlds is authors seem to think having a particular ability or way of using that ability is the thing they need to differentiate themselves. But if all your MC is doing is the same thing all other MCs are doing, what's the point really? In short, "what" you do is more important than "how". And "why" is more important than "what" as that ties into the character motivations and without interesting characters, it's hard to get invested in a story.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by sasuke706

When a reason is given (usually they aren't) it's that the plants don't adapt well to cultivation. Some reason or another that they can only grow in the wild.
Being an unreliable source, the government would focus on other more stable medical means. Usually just magic.

There are some real world examples of herbs and plants that are exceedingly difficult to cultivate like wasabi and truffles.

Originally Posted by Kyureki

While we're all ranting, something I've been noticing over the years and has been making me gradually read less and less WN these days is the general lack of good story writing.

And by that I mean the story is often extremely monotonous and bland with little to no build up to any sort of climax of any kind. This gets especially bad with the dime a dozen isekai stuff where there isn't really much of any kind of enforced event like with stuff set in a modern day school.

Combine that with flat characters and/or the MC not really interacting with other people outside when necessary and it just gets really dull and boring very quickly.

That said, at least some of the ones that get published, the editor does a good job of getting the author to fix most of these problems, so the ones that have some promise get a little salvation.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I think a common problem for isekai worlds is authors seem to think having a particular ability or way of using that ability is the thing they need to differentiate themselves. But if all your MC is doing is the same thing all other MCs are doing, what's the point really? In short, "what" you do is more important than "how". And "why" is more important than "what" as that ties into the character motivations and without interesting characters, it's hard to get invested in a story.

If your looking for orgasm-inducing climax, great world-building, and an epic story of the greatest main character ever conceived then Reverend Insanity is the story for you.

[wuhugm]

^^^
^^
^
Usually different fetishes would differentiate lmao

Regarding the plant quest
A newbie adventurer can not in anyway take a subjugation quest at first
Only plant picking quest
This logic was from the early fantasy games
in real life condition this is weird
Because there almost no advanced version of that quest in higher level
Plant picking = F level quest = loser adventurer
So to all adventurers it's compulsory to learn basic botany
But it's no concern after 1 rank promotion?
To find and collect even rarer wild plants should be 1 of major quests aside from subjugation!

[zztop]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Isekai Rant again :
The Plants/Herbs Harvesting Quest
Usually ingredients for potion and stuffs
Why is this quest still exist?

My impression is that some WN author wrote it in their story long ago to replicate the feel of a beginner RPG quest; then later authors started seeing it as the must-do template for writing an open world RPG style novel.

Originally Posted by Kyureki

While we're all ranting, something I've been noticing over the years and has been making me gradually read less and less WN these days is the general lack of good story writing.

And by that I mean the story is often extremely monotonous and bland with little to no build up to any sort of climax of any kind. This gets especially bad with the dime a dozen isekai stuff where there isn't really much of any kind of enforced event like with stuff set in a modern day school.

Combine that with flat characters and/or the MC not really interacting with other people outside when necessary and it just gets really dull and boring very quickly.

I recall there was that reflective essay talking about how most webnovel authors are just playing copycat and ripping off the story themes set by their predecessors. Most don't take their storywriting seriously enough to put in quality and effort.

PS. If you're looking for a more quality story, I'd personally recommend this one.
https://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=152796

[bakato]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^^^
^^
^
Usually different fetishes would differentiate lmao

Regarding the plant quest
A newbie adventurer can not in anyway take a subjugation quest at first
Only plant picking quest
This logic was from the early fantasy games
in real life condition this is weird
Because there almost no advanced version of that quest in higher level
Plant picking = F level quest = loser adventurer
So to all adventurers it's compulsory to learn basic botany
But it's no concern after 1 rank promotion?
To find and collect even rarer wild plants should be 1 of major quests aside from subjugation!

Said rare plants would have very distinguishing features, no? So aside from a picture, are botany skills even needed?

[zztop]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I think a common problem for isekai worlds is authors seem to think having a particular ability or way of using that ability is the thing they need to differentiate themselves. But if all your MC is doing is the same thing all other MCs are doing, what's the point really? In short, "what" you do is more important than "how". And "why" is more important than "what" as that ties into the character motivations and without interesting characters, it's hard to get invested in a story.

I find that ability-usage stories (Lvl 99 fireball, skill-stealing, etc.) tend to be more prevalent in fantasy WNs targeting male readers.

For those targeting female readers, it's more about preknowledge (I played the otome game extensively and must use knowledge for greater good to save everyone) and their empathy (to find out character's insecurities and try rehabilitate their negative behaviours). Power-type abilities don't play as big of a role compared to male-targeted stories.

[wuhugm]

^Think something good and 10 other novels will copy it right away
More popular authors can just copy good elements from unknown novel and they will be the one recognized for the achievements

Originally Posted by bakato

Said rare plants would have very distinguishing features, no? So aside from a picture, are botany skills even needed?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's like 4 leaf clover that you need to be very meticulous.

That's not the point tho
If even the most common plant needs adventurer to be harvested
The rarer ones need too
Which means higher ranked harvesting quest
Like S rank quest to harvest dragon flower in dragon mountain or stuffs
But you rarely see things like that

[Tenzen12]

It's really matter of supply and demand. I would assume if there is bigass adventurer city with 20 dungeons, there should be herb plantages for potions. If we talk about small town just paying few coppers to adventurer noob might be cheeper instead.

It's also possible that herb collecting quests are intentionally protected by laws to nurture noobs as without them there will be no eventual S rank heroes.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by bakato

There are some real world examples of herbs and plants that are exceedingly difficult to cultivate like wasabi and truffles.

As far as I understand it, the problem with wasabi is not the act of actually growing it, it's commercialising large scale production at a low enough cost that to make substitutes redundant due to the narrow band of conditions it grows in. If it's already growing locally (which it would do in a newbie quest setting) then the local conditions are obviously fine so it shouldn't be too hard to simply grow a bit more of it in a managed way.

Truffles are certainly problematic. Even with commercial cultivation you still need trained dogs. Certainly not something newbie adventurers could do.

One thing to note about the above two though is that they're both luxury goods. Real medicinal plants would potentially be a matter of life and death to the community so there would be huge pressure to have a secure and reliable method to acquire them, even if it's expensive. So it's not the sort of thing that you'd leave to newbies either. Also, if it is something that newbies can do then experienced foresters, rangers etc would also be able to do it as a side job as they'd likely be going through appropriate areas already.

It's often said that the medicinal plants quest is always available, which suggests that there's near infinite demand which seems unlikely. So in such a scenario I think it's more likely that it is fact a subsidised quest by the guild rather than a "real" quest. Which is probably why the rewards are terrible. The actual plants are probably donated to local herbalists for free. Or something like that.

Two other thoughts: in MMOs, crafting builds are often a real thing and cultivating medicinal plants would be the basics and in the real world, if it's in a place with Earth like seasons then it's unlikely that medicinal plants would always be in season - in RPGs there's often no defined seasons or seasonality, so there wouldn't be such consideration.

[wuhugm]

In Hazure Skill 「Kage ga Usui」, there's a famous high ranking adventurer whose sole specialization is harvesting plants, this is good writing

Btw I found 2 stories where the MC is in entourage to the villainess

1. I'm Thinking of Quitting the Villainess' Entourage = This is really bad, in the beginning MC is already more popular than the villainess and heroine, so in a state of reverse harem. Basically an upgraded heroine, skip this.

2. I Reincarnated as a White Pig Noble's Daughter from a Shoujo Manga = This is the good one, MC still eventually ended up as an entourage, but she's helping the villainess to be better.

Still waiting for an actual evil girl / bitch perspective tho