2008-10-03, 03:14 | Link #841 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Now think in cold war terms... think back at the time when USSR was on equal footing with USA. No one ever predicted of sudden USSR collapse. Everyone thought East and West rivalry will go on forever. US leaders fully believed on the "domino effect", and that revolutoinary movements in American continent must be "contained" by any means (in form of "friendship", economic/sustained development assistance, or in worst case scenario... a CIA mission to "contain" Soviet-leaning revolutionary movements.) The thought of having a communist gov set up in the American continent that is economic and militarily dependent on the USSR was just unthinkable. The thought of Soviets stationing advanced, state-of-the-art Navy/Marine/Air force hardware in American backyard, including the feared and respected Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces (ICBMs and SAMs), is a NATIONAL SECURITY RISK nightmare. As long as USSR was around, no one give a damn about the grievances against USA. At the end of the day, US is/was seen as the savior of the (free) world every time they "contain" revolutionary/socialist/communist movenets around the world. This sounds crazy.... but think in Cold War terms to understand this. Also, I think the civil rights of the 50s-60s was also a NATIONAL SECURITY issue. The Government was quick to abolish all forms of racist policies. The goal was to maintain parity with Soviet education (getting minorities to enter "equal" schools), prevent minorities from setting up revolutionary/leftist movements, preventing race wars, and improve USA's P.R. in the wrold. Again it sounds crazy... but think in cold war terms to understand this. Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 06:52. |
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2008-10-03, 03:28 | Link #842 | ||
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
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The citizens could only feel liberation if they were severly suppressed, else people may feel other things (slight gratitude perhaps?) The only thing Bush wise that stopped me having a grudge against pretzels, was that I was told that Cheney would be 10 times worse, so it was better to have the puppet as the leader. As for having that country of the assassinators, deciding who gets to rule the country you're in, naturally it'd reek of mistrust. But the thing is the West has a more established democratic system than let's say Iraq, so for a foreign country to try to instill new people of power would be difficult, (short of already having links with people in the inside) than a country who's now implementing this system for the first time, I'd think. I'm sure we'd have politicians (even in the opposing parties) who could already take up the posts. (I know you were just setting an example to someone else, but I went along with it, thinking of how it might work in this present day)
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2008-10-03, 03:32 | Link #843 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Wait, I'm not sure I understood your post. You'd actually support other countries assassinating Bush, as long as they got Cheney, too? You'd support other countries getting rid of any American president they don't like?
Or do you put a condition on it, like "they have to be democratic"? 'cause UK has had a parliament for a good long while, and Greece practically invented democracy. Do they get to off your government? |
2008-10-03, 03:53 | Link #844 |
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Now that USSR doesn't exist, grievances against the USA started to surface.
Not surprised if USA's policy of containment offended many radicalists/socialist/communists. Tactics and strategies used on "containment" may be a bit too harsh since they were not thoroughly well planned for long term. The ultimate goal at that time was to stop Soviet expansion by any means. Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 14:12. |
2008-10-03, 03:59 | Link #845 |
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
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Was replying to Ledgem's hypothetical question with the examples he set, as I said, it's a slight detour from the actual example you guys were using.
'how would I feel if let's say France came in to kill Blair" - in relation to the technology and security measures we have as countries at present, how people over here felt about the leader at the time, the current political system we have and how possible is it for a foriegn country of a similar system to completely override it. (As opposed to removing a dictator, seeing the power fall and establishing something new). If Bush went, I'd not have lost any sleep over it, but I wasn't thinking in terms of an invasion, rather it was a discussion I was having with some Americans when that incident was reported and I said 'If Bush goes, who takes over and would that be better?' If someone in Iraq said 'I wanna kill Blair', I can't say I'd blame them. We already got dragged in, London got hit, we lost lives as a result of something the country wasn't supporting, hell some of his own cabinet members quit over Iraq. We get the terrorism act, we become the most CCTV'ed city in the world, we become the country with one of the largest DNA databases in the world - that's just to name a few, there's no love lost, let's say, you perhaps feel different with your own leaders. As for a condition, I haven't set one. If we were to take an example of a country with a different set of political structure (let's say China) who tried to attack US or UK, I just call that WW3. The fight wouldn't remain in one country as it did Iraq.
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2008-10-03, 04:16 | Link #846 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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So are you OK with it, or not? 'cause I'm really not sure what you're answering to, there.
And as for how I feel about my leader - he'd have to screw up a lot harder than he has before I'd consider welcoming a foreign power assassinating him and putting a puppet president in his place. |
2008-10-03, 04:35 | Link #847 |
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
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To Ledgems hyp.. *facepalm*
Never mind. Just to answer your question then, if a foriegn power came to the US to try to assassinate Bush you're saying, would I support it? Not anymore than I supported the US and UK doing that to Iraq, or keeping tabs on N Korea or Iran, simply cause of the useless loss of life for the regular people. In light of recent events and taking into account the years of US bashing and just the general attitudes to America from various foreign countries, under the current administration, if they tried now, I'd not send them on their merry way, but I wouldn't blame them either, I got a very 'shouganai' attitude to it at the moment. As for the feasibility of that as i was saying, (to the hypothetical point) it'd be harder for any foreign country with a similar political system to put a puppet president of their choice in an already established democratic system, short of it partially being an inside job. The 'how would you feel' was aimed at mg1942, but i sat down and thought 'wait how would I feel if I had to take into consideraton how we all felt bout Blair over here, what's gone down in history and the state of London now as a result and a foreign power came in to assassinate him and try to place a PM of their choice? How'd it work in this day and time? So i tossed in my two pence. *shrug* You said, Bush would have to do a lot more worse, we had thought that Blair already crossed the line; at worst for the present time we ended up with suicide bombers as retaliation.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-10-03 at 05:13. |
2008-10-03, 09:18 | Link #848 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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We used to watch Dr. Strangelove at parties when I was working with SAC (B-52 systems) .... not because it was funny but because it was true. We encountered officials like those on a daily basis. Functionally insane.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2008-10-03 at 09:42. |
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2008-10-03, 10:58 | Link #851 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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It had more to do with controlling the population and weeding out the smart people. Those were the ones getting caught and systematically eliminated. They weren't just pursuing people who had a leftist affinity, they were pursuing people for thinking. It was so bad many brilliant people simply escaped the country in what is known as the "brain flee".
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2008-10-03, 11:02 | Link #852 | |
Honyaku no Hime
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Hate bastard parking fines, but she's seriously damaging herself with her intake :\ I'd love to say 'maybe she'll re evaluate her current diet - and the time used to cosume what she does', but I think I got more chances of seeing pigs fly first...
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2008-10-03, 11:03 | Link #853 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2008-10-03, 11:05 | Link #854 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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"I think our antics in South America were horrendously poor policy"
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2008-10-03, 14:30 | Link #855 | |
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Also keep in mind that Argentina was harboring war criminals (even to this day). USA/Israel went after former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers. |
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2008-10-03, 14:43 | Link #856 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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At best you can describe the CIA as indifferent, at worst they actively help some of them escape until they were of no use.
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2008-10-03, 15:11 | Link #857 |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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(now think in cold war terms)
Some Nazis were too precious to be deported. USA relied on them because they are the key for USA's ICBM program. Having Nazis in the US ICBM program did not stop USSR from launching the world's first ICBM. What's amazing is that USSR didn't need Nazi assistance. |
2008-10-03, 15:25 | Link #859 | |
Gregory House
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(Explanation: They were people with a lot of wealth, and most had a reactionary and conservative thinking that was in good terms with the military juntas).
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2008-10-03, 15:43 | Link #860 |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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lol I'm not that old
But I learned about the mentality at that time. It's crazy if you think about it today. I used to talk to a former cold warrior in another forum (even in private). He's Russian and he converses well in English. He claims USSR had the capability to equal or surpass USA militarily. He also claims Moscow was heavily defended with world's most advanced SAM sites during the 60s to 80s. He even bluffs that their ICBMs gave them first strike advantage over the USA, particularly because of its very heavy throw weight. Too bad he's now banned because of the stunts he pulled during the Georgian crisis To Vexx -- - For your contribution to the S.A.C. - For maintaining parity with the Soviets. Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 16:18. |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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