(L) Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka? [WN]

[haseo0408]

I get it, I know their actions are going to save the world in long run but it just doesn´t sit well with me, they are just going to cause a huge mess in the far future for the very survivors. And yes, it´s hypocritical for Shun to accept help from the elves that have made this situation far, far worse but I still going to root for the guy who is not planning to kill everybody on sight.

Also, Ariel has no right to talk about the current civilization, this mess was started millennia ago by her daddy dear and yes that civilization mess up big time but the current one have no idea of the sins of the past.

[Rasty]

I get the Pope's stance (he is rooting for his team to the end), but Shun doesn't provide a solution. He wants "another way to do it" but the time is ticking, every second costs more lives and he has nothing. For an obligatory terrible metaphor, it's like there is a lion right in the middle of a heard of sheep currently tearing them one after another. Shiro wants to shoot the lion and be done with it, but Shun is wrestling for the gun to stop her from killing the "poor lion" (while killing even more sheep from misfires and solving nothing). The Pope is in the meantime kicking the sheep to the lion so that it gets tired from all of the killing and can be dragged away.

[Huh...?]

The whole situation of Shun asking to look for an alternative while himself not providing one, shows how weak minded he is.

Especially when comparing to someone like the MC of the "Mahou Sensei Negima" series, who not only tried to stop the conflict so that no life is lost (both real and illusion), but also provided a pretty good solution for the whole situation which while was a sort of complicated and slow plan but it had taken into account the remaining time factor as well (though there are alternate timelines like the "UQ Holder" one, where MC of "Mahou Sensei Negima" ends up failing, which ends up creating the new "UQ Holder" timeline).

[sierra117]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

Also, Ariel has no right to talk about the current civilization, this mess was started millennia ago by her daddy dear and yes that civilization mess up big time but the current one have no idea of the sins of the past.

She has every rights to do so, because to her “daddy dear”, she is nothing but his lab rat and he treated her less than human, and Sariel is her only mother-figure and the only one that treats her with love, and when everyone else tried to to made Sariel into the sacrifice to clean-up their own mess despite had been warned, she and her “siblings” were the only ones that tried to stand up for Sariel

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

The whole situation of Shun asking to look for an alternative while himself not providing one, shows how weak minded he is.

I don't really see how it's weak minded to look for an alternative to genocide, even if you don't have an idea right away. All the people who are gung ho for genocide are the ones who have literally no skin in the game because they have a death wish, they can leave any time they want, or they only care about a handful of people.

[kagato3]

If I remember correctly the world is in such a bad state that it is going to completely collapse in a matter of months. Genocide even a limited one at worse will extend the amount of time everyone has and at best fix the problems. Not having a plan most likely kill everyone.

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I don't really see how it's weak minded to look for an alternative to genocide, even if you don't have an idea right away.

The reason i said Shun is weak minded because he just seem to be spouting some generic dialogs stuff, which any little kid would speak about after watching a shows about righteous people saving the world without anyone losing life and Nakama power. But in real life, those aren't actual solutions though.

I am not against the idea of an alternative against Genocide, that's for sure. What i am ticked-off about is the fact that Shun didn't provide a solution himself.
Before suggesting to look for a different way, did he consider the state of the world, the time-frame left and other various points, including the reality of the situation.

I am not saying that what Shiori and others are doing is the right thing, but they are doing it to save the life of someone dear to them, and in the mean time also end up save the world from collapse (which would technically kill every living being on that planet, except maybe the Admins, and probably the Elves who most likely have tech to help them escape the planets destruction and then move on to another planet and destroy it as well).

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

The reason i said Shun is weak minded because he just seem to be spouting some generic dialogs stuff, which any little kid would speak about after watching a shows about righteous people saving the world without anyone losing life and Nakama power. But in real life, those aren't actual solutions though.

Shun has lost plenty already due to Shiro's plan already, so he really isn't being generic.

I am not against the idea of an alternative against Genocide, that's for sure. What i am ticked-off about is the fact that Shun didn't provide a solution himself.
Before suggesting to look for a different way, did he consider the state of the world, the time-frame left and other various points, including the reality of the situation.

Obviously he doesn't have a solution, but he can't just go "Alright then" and let people he cares about get killed without exploring every option, especially by people who don't really have any incentive to keep them alive.

[sierra117]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Shun has lost plenty already due to Shiro's plan already, so he really isn't being generic.



Obviously he doesn't have a solution, but he can't just go "Alright then" and let people he cares about get killed without exploring every option, especially by people who don't really have any incentive to keep them alive.

Shiro does have the incentive to keep Shu and co. alive as long as they don’t stand in her way and being nuisances though

[erneiz_hyde]

Shun isn't providing alternative because he's busy stopping Shiro obviously, and Shiro isn't going to ever let him do that, not when Maou-chan could be in danger because of it. I can imagine that there is actually a better solution to save the planet provided everyone is willing to compromise. At this rate, Shiro would succeed in saving the planet, but then plot twist Maou-chan die anyways, rendering all the deaths in vain, and then Shun kills Shiro because plot armor and the only one laughing in the end is D, i.e. the worst possible ending. Maybe she will then sell the freshly restarted planet to the highest bidding god in an auction.

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

At this rate, Shiro would succeed in saving the planet, but then plot twist Maou-chan die anyways, rendering all the deaths in vain, and then Shun kills Shiro because plot armor and the only one laughing in the end is D, i.e. the worst possible ending.

Wouldn't the worst end be "Potimas" achieving his dream and leaving the planet behind to die and set base on another planet which he also exploits until the end and once done, repeats the same process on another planet.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by sierra117

Shiro does have the incentive to keep Shu and co. alive as long as they don’t stand in her way and being nuisances though

It doesn´t really matter in the end, the only people that would agree to genocide as the solution would be insane!. Even if they promised not to hurt their loved ones who could live with such guilt? At the end of the day, not even the Demon Army knows the true reason for the war, they are just puppets. At the end of the day, this about selfish people trying to get what they want out of a horrible mess, not about saving the world; Shun may have many flaws but he´s sane compared to the rest of the cast who couldn´t care less about the consequences of their actions.

[cadu_]

It easy to say Shiro's side is wrong. But no one has a proposed a better solution so far.
The only plan the Anti Shiro faction proposed was to sacrifice another god but that would only buy time for them(200-300 years) and not solve the root of the problem and if the problem is not solved everyone is gonna die.
I think it's wrong for anyone to go against Shiro without proposing a solution first, they are just selfishly getting in her way from stopping the world's destruction because they don't wanna die.

[erneiz_hyde]

Shiro is killing everyone not because she wants to save the world but because she doesn't want Maou-chan to die. I'd say she's even more selfish than the humans. Killing one god to buy them 200-300 years of time is a net positive in the number of people being happy, and they might just be able to work their way for a more permanent solution this time now it isn't foolishly kept secret. A certain ally of justice from another franchise would do that in a heart beat. Not saying he's right or I condone that either, but just presenting another perspective.

This is a direct allusion to our own world. We humans are killing the planet (technically we are killing ourselves, because the planet will go on, but it won't be able to support our lives). We might already be at a point of no return in regards to climate change but anyone who proposes we do mass genocide as a solution to that deserves a bullet to the head to be honest.

[Peridot Crystal Clod]

The problem isn’t the world anymore but people’s souls are going to permanently die... they barely have any time left before everyone’s souls start to colapse. Like others are saying right now there’s no way to know for sure how to save everyone without giving up on something else. Sariel who gave herself for humanity (who caused their own destruction to begin with) to save them. Now that humanity wants to use those gods who saved them even more so and sacrifice them. Like I get Shiro is only doing it mostly for her grandma who’s also going to die soon as her soul is in the brink of collapse so Ariel’s wish is not to save herself but her mom which was the only one that showed her love and kindness after her dad sort of ... you know used her as a lab rat and left her to die. If Shiro’s side knew a way to save everyone without sacrifice then they would definitely go for that,but since there’s no time left as Sariel is also on the brink of death (and soul collapse) they will go with the more extreme and only way for them to go. In my case I think Shiro’s plan is the best solution so far because again everyone’s souls are reaching their limits. Hopefully the Pope and co find a way to save everyone but at this point they seem to not have an answer either so ... yeah...

[Peridot Crystal Clod]

I’m not saying genocide is the solution, but, in this case there doesn’t seem to be an actually right answer.... either the system collapses now and people have a chance to survive for the future or we don’t do that only delaying the inevitable momentarily as humanity dies out completely. I still wish for a better solution but to be honest I don’t see one.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Peridot Crystal Clod

I’m not saying genocide is the solution, but, in this case there doesn’t seem to be an actually right answer.... either the system collapses now and people have a chance to survive for the future or we don’t do that only delaying the inevitable momentarily as humanity dies out completely. I still wish for a better solution but to be honest I don’t see one.

Shiro at least believes that there's only two options and that neither are that nice. She literally says that in "268 - That which is hidden". She also mentions that even with Gyurie's method, at least a quarter of the population will have their souls destroyed. So it's not "genocide vs non-genocide" it's "short term partial genocide with high probability of success vs long term partial genocide with possibility of total failure".

Are there other possibilities? Well, last we knew, no. But it's possible that things have changed. I don't remember Shiro considering using the "skill erasure" skill to make people give up their skills/status values. I think it's obvious that it wouldn't be possible to "give" that skill to everyone - it would cost too much energy. But could they have "asked" everyone to take the skill naturally? Apparently it's available for zero skill points. The skill hasn't come up in like 400 chapters.

Given that Shiro knew that Gyurie would oppose her plan if he found out the details, it is more than reasonable that she would seek a viable alternative. She doesn't want to die after all. So either she's considered the possibility and rejected it for some reason or she never considered it at all. The later isn't totally impossible as Shiro can make careless mistakes but I don't think it would work well to write it off as a joke. So I think it's more likely that she considered it and rejected it as infeasible for some reason.

It's possible that D's recent interventions have changed things though. After all, a huge amount of energy has been returned to the planet. It's not gone directly to the System though but to the population. If the general population give that energy to Gyurie or Shiro then it's not available to the System but even so the total energy there will increase. So this might make certain options viable.

It's also possible that D introduced new features to the System to allow the giving of skills to everyone and the possibility of global communications. If those weren't available before then again that might give new options that weren't available before.

So, long story short, it's not like Shiro and Ariel's goal is to kill lots of people. The ultimate goal is saving Sariel and the planet. I don't think they'd be against alternatives if they existed, so long as their main goals are met.

[Rasty]

^ I haven't been keeping up with the new chapters (stopped after the great info dump to reincarnaters in the elven village), but agreed. Shiro would love an alternative that doesn't cause genocide (if only because she doesn't want to find Gyurie who is stronger than her in raw power). As for the "skill-erasure", I think it was mentioned to put a strain on the soul, meaning that it actually does a similar thing the system collapse would do. It's also possible it would generate much less energy.

I expect D to provide some alternative as it's kind of not in her style to not leave a way to a happy end (it's however pretty much in her style to just laugh if you miss it). And I of course also think that if you want to stand in Shiro's way (except for trying to save yourself and possibly your closest ones, which our "Hero" isn't) you should provide some at least marginally realistic plan, not just spew "nice-sounding" blabbering and provide nothing.

[Endscape]

The problem with Shiro is that I can't really trust that she put significant effort into finding a different method. She always picks the fastest and most efficient method, no matter the cost to her surroundings.

She herself mentioned this when she was ruminating over how she ruined Shun's life as an afterthought.

People will say that you shouldn't try to get in her way without a viable plan, which has some truth to it, but everything has to start somewhere. I mean, can someone really be expected to just go along with a plan like that without at least verbally expressing discontent. So many shitty things in life have been justified when people just keep quiet because they have no other option.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Rasty

^ I haven't been keeping up with the new chapters (stopped after the great info dump to reincarnaters in the elven village), but agreed. Shiro would love an alternative that doesn't cause genocide (if only because she doesn't want to find Gyurie who is stronger than her in raw power). As for the "skill-erasure", I think it was mentioned to put a strain on the soul, meaning that it actually does a similar thing the system collapse would do. It's also possible it would generate much less energy.

I expect D to provide some alternative as it's kind of not in her style to not leave a way to a happy end (it's however pretty much in her style to just laugh if you miss it). And I of course also think that if you want to stand in Shiro's way (except for trying to save yourself and possibly your closest ones, which our "Hero" isn't) you should provide some at least marginally realistic plan, not just spew "nice-sounding" blabbering and provide nothing.

The skill Oka-chan used on Hugo (Presentation) did put a strain on her soul, but IIRC "skill erasure" itself is slow and safe. Unless I missed something when searching for references.

Incidentally, unless you're waiting for the series to finish before starting re-reading again you might want to catch up with the latest events as D has intervened more than ever before.

It could also be said that Shun has now explicitly sided with Dustin and is going along with Dustin's plans, even though he doesn't know all the details. He hasn't ditched the "can't we all get along" attitude though, really. Maybe the most recent events will have changed his mind though...

Originally Posted by Endscape

The problem with Shiro is that I can't really trust that she put significant effort into finding a different method. She always picks the fastest and most efficient method, no matter the cost to her surroundings.

She herself mentioned this when she was ruminating over how she ruined Shun's life as an afterthought.

People will say that you shouldn't try to get in her way without a viable plan, which has some truth to it, but everything has to start somewhere. I mean, can someone really be expected to just go along with a plan like that without at least verbally expressing discontent. So many shitty things in life have been justified when people just keep quiet because they have no other option.

Certainly Shiro will sometimes take the easy option, particularly if it means not having to deal with people. But for her grand plan, she spent years on it and had every motivation to try to come up with a plan that wouldn't cause Gyurie or Dustin to side against her. She wasn't able to and so tried to hide the truth from them instead. Putting it another way, if there was some relatively simple way to improve her plan such that Gyurie or Dustin would not object then that would be simpler overall for her. So even going by your own arguments she'd have no reason to go with a riskier plan that required more preparation - ie to fight Gyurie and/or Dustin if necessary.

The problem with simply objecting is that to anyone who has looked seriously at the situation, that's the worst possible option. It's not that people don't have the right to object or complain but if they actually want to make a difference and be taken seriously then they need to do more than that. Putting it another way, doing nothing dooms everybody and it's literally the case that "something must be done". So objecting without trying to come up with a better "something" either means that the objector is in denial about the reality of the situation or actually wants to achieve the worst possible situation. It's inherently a very bad stance to take when the people with real power have already made their choices.