Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

It's not about his ability to pilot, even Euphemia could pilot a Knightmare, it's about his performance. Suzaku is constantly handed the best stuff, such that he simply expects to be better than his opponent. Take that away and his performance suffers severely. Turn 18 is a prime example of this. He tried a cowardly tactic to take Kallen out of the fight before she could cause him trouble. When his best weapon is brushed off like a gentle breeze, he abandons any pretense at strategy (save a one-off and very stupid suggestion that he'd do better in close-range against the Guren of all things) and just starts beam-spamming. I'd cite other example of less one-sided fights, but I've done so already. The moment Suzaku realizes that he's not the best, panic starts setting in, and from there he gets stomped until some twist of fate spares him. The last fight is an exception of sorts, but even there he treats his live Geass like it should make him unbeatable.

I don't actually see any dip in Suzaku's performance per se, just the fact that he panics. Despite what you say about Suzaku being 'stomped', though, the panic never actually leads Suzaku to lose any of those fights, aside from Turn 18 which was a given. Whatever can be said about Suzaku based on his confidence or lack of it, in terms of material results he still performs fine.

Suzaku has no experience in a Sutherland, while Kallen has piloted something even less high tech. Kallen would be better acquainted with such a vehicle and as such have an edge in their battle. She's also flat-out the better pilot of the two.

I don't really see why 'low-tech experience' would really be that important. If Suzaku managed to adapt to high capacity machines with such ease as he demonstrates, why should a low tech frame be any different? If by :better acquainted" you mean "more used to the feeling of 'this doesn't move as fast as I want it to'", I've seen it argued that Suzaku and Kallen both were suffering from that feeling straight up until they recieved their 9th gens, right? If that's so, I'd say that they were both sufficiently used to scaling themselves back to match their machines that having to adapt to lower gen frames would not even be an issue.

Anyway: you might have a better argument if the hypothetical match were, say, Glasgow vs. Glasgow. Maybe; this brings up the question of whether you think Suzaku/Kallen's performance in the Lancelot/Guren or any other such example etc. actually improved over the course of the series. I don't remember any evidence actually demonstrating that, which might well lead me to say that Suzaku/Kallen/etc. are just so good that they completely grasped the full potential of their mechs the second they first deployed in it. lol whatever. Anyway, the point of this paragraph was to say that (very very strong) familiarity with a specific frame might give someone an edge (as in, say, little mechanical quirks unique to the model), but for neutral examples like the Sutherland, there's no reason why lower-tech experience would make a difference.

As for your unsubstantiated claim that Kallen is 'flat out' a better pilot than Suzaku, I don't know how you came to such a conclusion and am not particularly interested in learning it, so I am just going to ignore that statement.

[morbosfist]

Fair enough on the last point. I did put a bit too much emphasis on an opinion.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't actually see any dip in Suzaku's performance per se, just the fact that he panics. Despite what you say about Suzaku being 'stomped', though, the panic never actually leads Suzaku to lose any of those fights, aside from Turn 18 which was a given. Whatever can be said about Suzaku based on his confidence or lack of it, in terms of material results he still performs fine.

It's because he panics that his performance dips. Take Stage 11. Suzaku's normally a very calm fighter, but once he panics seeing the Guren moving just as fast as him, his movements get noticeably more erratic and desperate, and a particular point is that he's trying to run when anywhere else he would keep charging forward. He only got away due to that lucky cliff break.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't really see why 'low-tech experience' would really be that important. If Suzaku managed to adapt to high capacity machines with such ease as he demonstrates, why should a low tech frame be any different? If by :better acquainted" you mean "more used to the feeling of 'this doesn't move as fast as I want it to'", I've seen it argued that Suzaku and Kallen both were suffering from that feeling straight up until they recieved their 9th gens, right? If that's so, I'd say that they were both sufficiently used to scaling themselves back to match their machines that having to adapt to lower gen frames would not even be an issue.

Even if they were both suffering, Kallen still moved from the ground up, while Suzaku was handed a monster from the start. She would be more comfortable in a lower-spec machine, while Suzaku would have to adjust to it not moving like he wants it to.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Anyway: you might have a better argument if the hypothetical match were, say, Glasgow vs. Glasgow. Maybe; this brings up the question of whether you think Suzaku/Kallen's performance in the Lancelot/Guren or any other such example etc. actually improved over the course of the series. I don't remember any evidence actually demonstrating that, which might well lead me to say that Suzaku/Kallen/etc. are just so good that they completely grasped the full potential of their mechs the second they first deployed in it. lol whatever. Anyway, the point of this paragraph was to say that (very very strong) familiarity with a specific frame might give someone an edge (as in, say, little mechanical quirks unique to the model), but for neutral examples like the Sutherland, there's no reason why lower-tech experience would make a difference.

Marking improvement is difficult, that's for sure. The Sutherland is basically a faster Glasgow. The difference in the two models is minimal. Kallen would be more familiar with the unit than Suzaku would, even having never piloted one.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As for your unsubstantiated claim that Kallen is 'flat out' a better pilot than Suzaku, I don't know how you came to such a conclusion and am not particularly interested in learning it, so I am just going to ignore that statement.

season 1 final battle is a good indicator of skill development.
you could make a point about her being able to effectively fight him in mid-air while he can fly and she cant and actually taking out one of his arms in the process as proof of superior piloting skills
she jumps from building to building and clashs with him more then once
the only reason they end up landing in the first place is because she dodges a point blank charge he makes at her and he is forced to land or crash after zipping by her
and the only reason he wins is because he has more then one effective weapon system and can use it in either arm and she doesnt
she doesnt beat him
but she does out-pilot him

[Death Header]

Just to clarify here: When Kallen and Suzaku dueled for the last time, didn't Kallen state that her machine was superior to Suzaku's Lancelot Albion? If this is true, Suzaku should be a slightly better pilot than Kallen (to an extent).

[bladeofdarkness]

except that he has a mystical preformance enhancer that allows him to overwhelm a guy who knows what he's going to do a few seconds before he does it
a power up that lets him make split second moves like the flejia canceler thing that took 0.04 seconds
and thats not even counting his charles atlas superpowers that lets him dodge bullets
and yet kallen, a NORMAL HUMAN, can match and BEAT him despite those facts
THATS skill

and kallen's guren isnt just more high-spec
its SO high-spec that Lloyd claimed no one can use it at all (meaning that just being able to use it puts kallen above anyone else)
the albion on the other hand, was built specificlly for suzaku's use
which means that if Lloyd could have made it stronger in a way that would allow suzaku to use it more effectively, he would have done it already
thats what a custom unit means

specs do not determine the outcome of battle, piloting skills do
cornellia almost beats the gawein in a glochetter
and kallen, toudo, gino, and bismark all fight the shen-hu (another, super high-spec machine) without too much problems
you cant argue that the guren's specs were all that higher, because they spend the entire fight neck to neck until they ran out of limbs (much less wings, weapons and ammo)
by contrast, when it was the guren SEITEN vs the original lancelot, THAT was a spec difference
this isnt the case with the final fight

suzauk and kallen are normally on par (the only time either wins, is with a tech power up)
and in the final fight, both have some advantage over the other
kallen's higher specs balance suzaku's "live" geass command
which means that the end result lies entirely on skill levels
and since kallen wins....

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Death Header

Just to clarify here: When Kallen and Suzaku dueled for the last time, didn't Kallen state that her machine was superior to Suzaku's Lancelot Albion? If this is true, Suzaku should be a slightly better pilot than Kallen (to an extent).

Blade pretty much said it all. Suzaku had a performance booster, without which that fight would have gone a whole lot differently. In addition, whatever tech difference there was between the two machines, it could not have been that significant.

[Death Header]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Blade pretty much said it all. Suzaku had a performance booster, without which that fight would have gone a whole lot differently. In addition, whatever tech difference there was between the two machines, it could not have been that significant.

But the thing is that Suzaku didn't have a performance booster. Even with Lelouch's Geass Command, Suzaku had to rely on his skills as a pilot to get out of troublesome situations, and that's where Suzaku's skill comes in.

Fighting a somewhat superior KMF with an inferior one shows that Suzaku is a better pilot than Kallen, no?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Death Header

But the thing is that Suzaku didn't have a performance booster. Even with Lelouch's Geass Command, Suzaku had to rely on his skills as a pilot to get out of troublesome situations, and that's where Suzaku's skill comes in.

Fighting a somewhat superior KMF with an inferior one shows that Suzaku is a better pilot than Kallen, no?

Your first sentence contradicts itself. You say at the start he's using his Geass, but then you say it's just skill. His Geass was the only thing allowing him to keep up. It is a performance booster, plain and simple. That it wasn't enough is not an issue, because it was a necessary trait for him to even be a match for her. Fighting an opponent in a superior machine without the use of his Geass would make him a better pilot. Doing it with the Geass only shows Suzaku cannot deal with a better opponent without some sort of advantage to lean on.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Death Header

But the thing is that Suzaku didn't have a performance booster. Even with Lelouch's Geass Command, Suzaku had to rely on his skills as a pilot to get out of troublesome situations, and that's where Suzaku's skill comes in.

Fighting a somewhat superior KMF with an inferior one shows that Suzaku is a better pilot than Kallen, no?

its not even with
its because of

suzaku's "live" geass allows him to do things most people should not be able to do
using the live geass to give him a SEED mode like power up
he can overwhelm somoene who knows what he's going to do several seconds before he does it
and preform tricks that leave only a 0.04 seconds margine for error
in other words, it makes him a much more powerful pilot then he normally is (before he started using it, bismark was playing with him)

but kallen can still beat him despite of it
which makes HER the more skilled pilot

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

its not even with
its because of

suzaku's "live" geass allows him to do things most people should not be able to do
using the live geass to give him a SEED mode like power up
he can overwhelm somoene who knows what he's going to do several seconds before he does it
and preform tricks that leave only a 0.04 seconds margine for error
in other words, it makes him a much more powerful pilot then he normally is (before he started using it, bismark was playing with him)

Suzaku's been doing the .04 second margin of error trick and other super-human abilities even before he had the geass placed on him. That's a red hearing argument if I ever saw one, and is a gross mis-remembering of sequence of events. Suzaku's super-human abilities were displayed and proven well before he had the geass placed on him, and he only mastered the Geass as an advantage late in season two.

The nature of Suzaku's abilities were changed mid-course through the series after R2 was rewritten. A number of plot threads about the origin of Suzaku's abilities (why he reacted to VV's presence on the island, why he could sense CC's presence, or even why CC was watching him and Lelouch in Japan) were forgotten after the rewriting.

but kallen can still beat him despite of it

That's a rather fanciful recreation of their final battle. When two opposing machines are knocked out and sent into fatal conditions (the Lancelot exploding, the Gurren falling to a sure demise in the ocean with it's pilot passed out except for outside intervention), when neither pilot remains able to carry out the fight, that is what is commonly referred to as a 'tie.'

'Beating' Suzaku would imply that she could still stand and continue the fight even after his fall. 'Winning' the duel would imply she won and could survive without outside assistance. 'Victory' would imply that she was still able to carry out her objectives.

But she could not keep fighting.
Her survival was entirely dependent on outside intervention.
She completely failed in her twin objectives of beating Suzaku AND stopping Lelouch.


Rather,

Both aces were removed from the fight.
Both machines were rendered inoperable.
Neither pilot could finish the other without being knocked out of the fight themselves.



Tactically, no matter how you spin it, their decisive battle was that neither better than the other. It was a mutual knock out, a tie. Kallen couldn't triumph with a superior machine. Suzaku couldn't triumph with the Geass.


That was, like, the entire resolution of the symmetry they had been keeping through the entire series. If one had been decisive, it would have broken one of the patterns in a story full of cliche balances between the sides.

which makes HER the more skilled pilot

No, it doesn't, because the reason she tied/beat/whatever you want to call it to Suzaku remains the same: she had a superior machine. If she hadn't, she would have lost, regardless of whether Suzaku's skills have been artificially enhanced or not. They're still his skills, the Geass doesn't give him new ones. Beating/tying superior skills with a superior machine isn't a reflection of your own superior skills, but the abilities of your machine.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Suzaku's been doing the .04 second margin of error trick and other super-human abilities even before he had the geass placed on him. That's a red hearing argument if I ever saw one, and is a gross mis-remembering of sequence of events. Suzaku's super-human abilities were displayed and proven well before he had the geass placed on him, and he only mastered the Geass as an advantage late in season two.

If you refer to the 0.05 machine gun thing, there's a difference between lag time and a very specific deadline. "Do X in X seconds" is not the same as "X does this at X intervals."

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

That's a rather fanciful recreation of their final battle. When two opposing machines are knocked out and sent into fatal conditions (the Lancelot exploding, the Gurren falling to a sure demise in the ocean with it's pilot passed out except for outside intervention), when neither pilot remains able to carry out the fight, that is what is commonly referred to as a 'tie.'

Yet official sources acknowledge Kallen as the winner.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

No, it doesn't, because the reason she tied/beat/whatever you want to call it to Suzaku remains the same: she had a superior machine. If she hadn't, she would have lost, regardless of whether Suzaku's skills have been artificially enhanced or not. They're still his skills, the Geass doesn't give him new ones. Beating/tying superior skills with a superior machine isn't a reflection of your own superior skills, but the abilities of your machine.

If they had even machines and he didn't have his Geass, she would have won. She's a better pilot, and she proved it there. There's nothing enhancing her abilities, and her Knightmare is not that far above his. She's simply better than he is, and proved it even before this battle. Suzaku wins because he always has an advantage, and on even ground he cannot win.

[bladeofdarkness]

there is no denying that suzaku's live geass greatly enhances his piloting ability
when he triggers it the first time bismark goes from "i'm the stronger warrior in britannia" to "i think i just crapped my pants"
without it, bismark was all but playing with him
with it, he can make such preceise critical strikes at such speeds, that he slices both bismark AND the excaliber in half (the excaliber being longer then the lancelot)
just imagine how fast he would have had to be going to get that effect, (and how impossible it would have been to make such a strike at such speeds)

and yet kallen can match and beat (as morbo noted, she's been repeatedly named the victor) his super reflexes despite of it
the argument that she wouldnt have survived is questionable (gino fell from a similar height and survived without a problem in ep 22, and he wasnt over water)

you also igonre the fact that the SEITEN was judged un-pilotable by anyone, and hence, no matter how high specs it may have, its limited to what kallen can do with it
or that suzaku says his line at a point in battle where they have lost the wings, weapons, ammo, and shields and are down to bare FISTS
and he still cant beat her despite of it

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

there is no denying that suzaku's live geass greatly enhances his piloting ability
when he triggers it the first time bismark goes from "i'm the stronger warrior in britannia" to "i think i just crapped my pants"
without it, bismark was all but playing with him
with it, he can make such preceise critical strikes at such speeds, that he slices both bismark AND the excaliber in half (the excaliber being longer then the lancelot)
just imagine how fast he would have had to be going to get that effect, (and how impossible it would have been to make such a strike at such speeds)

Congratulations. You just wonderfully missed the part about how Suzaku's been showing super-human abilities and reflexes since the first episodes of R1, and are still fixating on a scene near the end of R2 which marked a development for Suzaku of turning a handicap (which had never kept him and Kallen from matching off evenly before) into an advantage (which was portrayed in the final battle as negating Kallen's tech edge).

and yet kallen can match and beat (as morbo noted, she's been repeatedly named the victor) his super reflexes despite of it

First, morbo's been on my Ignore List since I stopped caring about his ideological blindness, which is to say for a good six months or so. I have little interest in dealing with fanatics of any stripe, and he or she has long ago proven herself a pro-Kallen fanatic who wouldn't accept that the sky was blue if it implied she wasn't supreme. I care about as much about his/her opinion on balance and anime as I do my dog's, and he/she doesn't lick my feet.

Second, Kallen has been repeatedly named the victor by fans and similar who favor her. That's like asking a nationalist which country is best: it's a biased target audience. Other comparisons might be asking the Lelouch fandom if he was justified in revolution.

The final episode, in case you forgot that it's the show and not fans or anyone else who determine what happened, goes like this: Kallen and Suzaku knock eachother's machines out, Kallen falling to what would be her death if what's-his-face hadn't caught her while Suzaku is left to 'die' on the evil-super-fortress of doom. Of course, Suzaku didn't die, and quite apparently was still chipper enough to jump and run from an exploding suit while Kallen was passing out. But that's quite beside the point that they had a mutual machine knockout.

Which tends to be the deciding factor in mech duels: if one person's mech lives/walks away and the other person doesn't, it's a win. If neither win and both walk away, it's a draw. But if both people fall, it's a tie.

the argument that she wouldnt have survived is questionable (gino fell from a similar height and survived without a problem in ep 22, and he wasnt over water)

The were in the upper atmosphere, higher than most any float system could climb. The Gurren had no energy left for a float system, and no slash harkens to grip on anywhere. Kallen was passed out and unable to trigger escape pod/boot up new systems/deus ex machina upgrade of the episode.

The Tristen had energy, had a working float system, and the pilot was very much alive.

One would have been in free fall from the upper atmosphere. The other was sent down with a still-lifting float system, with the skilled pilot still alert and alive to handle it.

Gee, I wonder why he survived.

you also igonre the fact that the SEITEN was judged un-pilotable by anyone, and hence, no matter how high specs it may have, its limited to what kallen can do with it

So your defense of Kallen's superiority is that she isn't skilled enough?

That line was one of the cheesiest cliches of Code Geass's giant robot tradition. The "this machine is so powerful that no one can pilot it" is always demonstrated false when it's chosen pilot (in this case Kallen, who's not only been the pilot of the Gurren the whole time but also is someone Lloyd has never met/understood) comes into the cockpit and masters it in their first flight. Which Kallen did, nicely whomping on the 8th-gen knightmare frames of Britannia. The line was cliche dramatics, nothing more, just like when Lelouch made so many vows to commit any dead without hesitation before having so many crisis of faith as his friends were hurt.

Nothing in the series ever implied that she wasn't able to pilot the Seiten. Everything in the series implied she did it excellently. Explicitly in the series was the statement, by Kallen herself, that the Gurren's higher specs and abilities weren't enough for her to knock out Suzaku. Very rudimentary logic says that if she wasn't able to bring out those advantages, she wouldn't have claimed to have them.

or that suzaku says his line at a point in battle where they have lost the wings, weapons, ammo, and shields and are down to bare FISTS
and he still cant beat her despite of it

Yes. Suzaku is saying that he still can't beat Kallen, even with the geass-edge. That implies that he recognizes he isn't greater than her.

And at the exact same time, Kallen is also saying that even with her better specs, she can't beat him. That also implies that she recognizes that she isn't greater than him.

That scene is precisely supporting the fact that they are equals. Even though both have what should be an edge over the other, geass or technological, neither can win.

Which is what equals do. They tie.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by Death Header

But the thing is that Suzaku didn't have a performance booster. Even with Lelouch's Geass Command, Suzaku had to rely on his skills as a pilot to get out of troublesome situations, and that's where Suzaku's skill comes in.

Fighting a somewhat superior KMF with an inferior one shows that Suzaku is a better pilot than Kallen, no?

I agree with you. It's not like the geass was some kind of anabolic steroid or something like that, hehe. The geass helped a little bit, but if Suzaku wasn't skilled, it would mean nothing. It's not like anyone would fight better with a geass just because the geass makes you want to survive. Most of the people would escape from the life threatning situations and that's it.

Suzaku not only has the skills, he got the will of fire to be there, managing not only the geass, but controls. He's gawd.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

I agree with you. It's not like the geass was some kind of anabolic steroid or something like that, hehe. The geass helped a little bit, but if Suzaku wasn't skilled, it would mean nothing. It's not like anyone would fight better with a geass just because the geass makes you want to survive. Most of the people would escape from the life threatning situations and that's it.

Suzaku not only has the skills, he got the will of fire to be there, managing not only the geass, but controls. He's gawd.

The Geass is exactly like a steroid, or his fight against Bismarck would have been lost regardless. The Geass makes him a significantly better fighter, which is matter-of-factly demonstrated during that fight. Against Kallen he used it and still could not win. This makes her better, because she got by on her own skills.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Congratulations. You just wonderfully missed the part about how Suzaku's been showing super-human abilities and reflexes since the first episodes of R1, and are still fixating on a scene near the end of R2 which marked a development for Suzaku of turning a handicap (which had never kept him and Kallen from matching off evenly before) into an advantage (which was portrayed in the final battle as negating Kallen's tech edge).

congrats
you just raised exactly the point that counters your argument
and somehow mangaed to twist it around
suzaku is USUALLY shown to be above normal/almost superhuman - and kallen can always match him despite of it (without a tech advantage)
the "live" geass makes him BETTER THEN HE NORMALLY IS - and kallen can STILL match him because she has a tech advatage
even with his preformance enhancing power that makes him BETTER then he normally (superhumanly) is, he cant beat her
and the guren, no matter how powerful, is only a machine in the end (and not all that much more powerful)
its preformence depends entirely on the skill of its pilot

The Tristen had energy, had a working float system, and the pilot was very much alive.

Gee, I wonder why he survived.

EP 22
not 25
gino survives falling from miles high up when suzaku spin kicks him out of the fight
after suzaku destroyed his float system, and head (central CPU)
gino falls from miles high up and not only survives, but is unharmed (and the tristan is mostly intact)

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

I agree with you. It's not like the geass was some kind of anabolic steroid or something like that, hehe. The geass helped a little bit, but if Suzaku wasn't skilled, it would mean nothing. It's not like anyone would fight better with a geass just because the geass makes you want to survive. Most of the people would escape from the life threatning situations and that's it.

Suzaku not only has the skills, he got the will of fire to be there, managing not only the geass, but controls. He's gawd.

the geass is treated as a preformence enhancer
and not a small one
when he uses it bismark goes from being supremely confident and playing around with suzaku to nearly crapping his pants from awe
no one questions that suzaku is extremely skilled
but the geass makes him more then simply skilled, it makes him a superhuman

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

congrats
you just raised exactly the point that counters your argument
and somehow mangaed to twist it around
suzaku is USUALLY shown to be above normal/almost superhuman - and kallen can always match him despite of it (without a tech advantage)
the "live" geass makes him BETTER THEN HE NORMALLY IS - and kallen can STILL match him because she has a tech advatage
even with his preformance enhancing power that makes him BETTER then he normally (superhumanly) is, he cant beat her
and the guren, no matter how powerful, is only a machine in the end (and not all that much more powerful)
its preformence depends entirely on the skill of its pilot

Edit: Never mind. I really can't tell what you're trying to say, so every time I review my response to this it seems more and more misaimed.

You're arguing against me... on what? That Suzaku's geass-curse helps him in the last three episodes of the series, whereas before he and Kallen had been matched time and time again? That Suzaku's physical abilities (the one's he's always had) have been superhuman since the start? That Suzaku's geass-edge is countered by Kallen's tech edge?

I really can't tell where you're disagreeing with me. Basic punctuation might help.

EP 22
not 25
gino survives falling from miles high up when suzaku spin kicks him out of the fight
after suzaku destroyed his float system, and head (central CPU)
gino falls from miles high up and not only survives, but is unharmed (and the tristan is mostly intact)

I was referring to 22. When Suzaku spin kicks Gino out of the fight, he still has enough of a machine to keep him from crashing into the ground at terminal velocity. The core of the float system, though not the control binders, was still intact on his back to slow his fall: his animation did not suggest or imply a catastrophic fall.

Kallen would have fallen from far, far higher, with no intact systems at all. Even if the machine survived unharmed (and to be frank, it's a joke to suggest that it would; even Gino's frame had to be completely rebuilt and upgraded after the battle damage from the Albion at all), the deceleration from impact into the ocean would have left Kallen a smear on the inside of her cockpit. Because it isn't if the machine survives the fall that's important, it's whether the pilot can survive a sudden deceleration after thousands or tens of thousands of meters of free fall.

But ignore Gino, who was still awake and had a damaged frame and, at the very least, could eject/climb out with a parachute/otherwise act. He's a red harring to this position.

Step back and ask yourself whether you really want to defend the position that you're assuming.

Are you really going to argue that a comatose pilot of an offline machine falling from the upper atmosphere will survive impace with the ground?

no one questions that suzaku is extremely skilled
but the geass makes him more then simply skilled, it makes him a superhuman

So what? You can type as much as you want, but it's meaningless unless you get to why it matters.

Suzaku was already superhuman, even before the geass. In the same battle with Bismark, Bismark is commenting that Suzaku is the only person besides Lelouch's mother that has ever required him to use his Geass, and that's just base Suzaku skills. The Geass enhanced it even further. That point doesn't seem to be in contention.

So what? What's your point? Or rather, what do you think you're contradicting me about?

[bladeofdarkness]

if you dont get it, you dont get it
i'd say that i'll leave it to morbo to explain to you, but you seem to ignore list people who tell you stuff you dont agree with
so i'll just stop talking to you about this at least

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Suzaku was already superhuman, even before the geass. In the same battle with Bismark, Bismark is commenting that Suzaku is the only person besides Lelouch's mother that has ever required him to use his Geass, and that's just base Suzaku skills. The Geass enhanced it even further. That point doesn't seem to be in contention.

this point at least deserves a mention
bismark uses his geass because of the albion's overwhelming abilities
not suzaku's

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if you dont get it, you dont get it
i'd say that i'll leave it to morbo to explain to you, but you seem to ignore list people who tell you stuff you dont agree with
so i'll just stop talking to you about this at least

I don't get it because you can't convey a point or make an actual argument. You state of lot of unrelated observations, most of which don't even come into conflict with what I've said, and then assume they lead somewhere else.

I don't mind talking to people I disagree with. I don't even mind being proven wrong. I do mind people who cling to beliefs and biases without the least bit adjustment despite not only any and every argument to the contrary, but also against the source material itself.

Besides, learning to argue positions for yourself is a life skill. You can't hide behind someone else's obstinance forever. If you believe something to be apparent from the source material, shouldn't it be easy to point out what supports and informs your beliefs?

this point at least deserves a mention
bismark uses his geass because of the albion's overwhelming abilities
not suzaku's

Hm, it's convenient when we can check it against the source itself. Ah, the miracles of youtube.




"To think I'd need this power against someone other than Empress Marianne!"

Japenese sub.

"Only once before have I used this power, when I battled Lady Marianne!"

and then, when he's freaking out

"What is this? Is this the machine's special function... or is Kururugi's skill?"

English dub.



Bismark was pretty straightforward that he resorted to his geass as a response to superb human skills, hence the reference to another superb human pilot, Lady Marianne. If he was resorting to the power in response to machine skill, he would have said it. And not a minute later, he dramatically restates it when he realizes why his Geass ability is lessening: that it is because of Suzaku's skill, which corresponds to what he had said just a minute earlier. We know the Lancelot Albion has no special anti-Geass function to be debut during it's one and only appearance against someone they didn't even know was a geass-user.




Now, that's what I get when I watch the episode. The Knight of One referencing human skill as reason for using his Geass, and Suzaku's skill in particular for why his geass is failing him.

What part of the show convinces you that it is because of the machine alone?

Your observation and opinion, mind you. Not Moroboro's puce-tinted glasses, not someone else's fanfic-recreation of the events, yours.

Preferably with grammar and syntax above the third grade level, but I promise to try. Just for you.

[bladeofdarkness]

what geass ability lessening ?

and suzaku wipes out the KoR in seconds because of, as monica puts it, "the power of a 9th gen"
suzaku also comments that "with this lancelot albion", and later is SHOCKED that bismark can predict his course
its way more high powered, and too fast to be tracked by targeting computer (as whats-her-name states)
thats why bismark triggers his geass
to match with the overwhelming tech advantage that the albion offers suzaku