Syosetsuka ni Narou Discussion Thread

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^Yup



And you're saying that random isekai-ed dudes are able to do that?

So this random guy established industrialized society, invent guns till machine guns, without anyone knowing?

With enough time yes. I have read novels where the MC spent 10-20 years industrialising the country he lords over and then steamroll his enemies with magitech industrial warfare at the end. And yes, some countries are just dumb enough to dismiss industrialisation. Some societies simply do not have the capacity to undergo industrialisation. You cannot industrialise a country where the bulk of the population comprised of serfs for example.In real life, Russia and China for example industrialised decades if not over a hundred years later than Western European countries for example.

[DBAV]

-Random hate
When the MC has a crafter/production like cheat but they make him stronger than everyone else. I think a novel about a crafting MC dealing with the production side of things (guilds,other crafters and clients) while his harem or friends deal with the fight/collection part of things would make an interesting novel.

[wuhugm]

^Yes
Well, if his crafting can create Iron Man armor then understandable

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

With enough time yes. I have read novels where the MC spent 10-20 years industrialising the country he lords over and then steamroll his enemies with magitech industrial warfare at the end.

Extremely bad writing then

Do you know how fast China is stealing US's techs? 2 weeks

Once again you're underestimating isekai's IQ too much
Very arrogant

[XFire]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Gun is what, using explosion to propel object to lethal speed?
In a world where Fireball, Wind Blast, or other explosion/expansion type magic are common place, someone is bound to notice that when people are killed by the flung object instead of the explosion itself
It doesn't have to Einstein-level of genius (it's not weird for isekai to have many geniuses in the first place)

You aren't wrong, and the creation of cannons would make sense, but if people can already hurl explosive fireballs at range why would they ever be necessary?

Early guns were not only as dangerous for the user as for the target (since it'd likely explode) but their power was laughable. Like a heavy shirt could stop a musket ball from too far away. That's not going to work on a fire ball that can gouge the ground hard enough to propel rocks

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^Yes
Well, if his crafting can create Iron Man armor then understandable



Extremely bad writing then

Do you know how fast China is stealing US's techs? 2 weeks

Once again you're underestimating isekai's IQ too much
Very arrogant

You know how long it took for China to be able to build up the industrial/technological capacity to steal US tech? 100 years. Before China can even steal US tech, they need to educate enough scientists and have an industry capable of making the US equipment. In the 1870s for example, China could not even produce proper US rifles after they legally bought a license from the US!

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by XFire

You aren't wrong, and the creation of cannons would make sense, but if people can already hurl explosive fireballs at range why would they ever be necessary?

Thus bakato said it's unnecessary

Which I agree because I hate when they modernize isekai

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

You know how long it took for China to be able to build up the industrial/technological capacity to steal US tech? 100 years. Before China can even steal US tech, they need to educate enough scientists and have an industry capable of making the US equipment. In the 1870s for example, China could not even produce US rifles after they legally bought a license from the US!

Well they can now

And if it's just ideas that random highschoolers can convey to local craftsmen

Then it's possible to steal that

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by XFire

You aren't wrong, and the creation of cannons would make sense, but if people can already hurl explosive fireballs at range why would they ever be necessary?

Early guns were not only as dangerous for the user as for the target (since it'd likely explode) but their power was laughable. Like a heavy shirt could stop a musket ball from too far away. That's not going to work on a fire ball that can gouge the ground hard enough to propel rocks

Because it takes over a decade of training to get people who can hurl explosive fireballs over a long distance, and very often, the ability to achieve this is limited to less than 1% of the population in a isekai situation. If a lot of them are somehow killed in a war then your country is super screwed. Even early guns are good because you can train a larger percentage of your population to fight in a couple of weeks. Even bows for example takes decades to master if you want to be proficient at it in a military setting.

There is often a limitation as well to how widespread magic is as well. If it’s not then a lot of peasants in isekai novels wouldn’t be farming for subsistence. Also,technology development in a isekai setting isn’t used for just military weaponry, but economic development as well. The Haber-Bosch process for example would make a lot of happy peasants.

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Thus bakato said it's unnecessary

Which I agree because I hate when they modernize isekai



Well they can now

And if it's just ideas that random highschoolers can convey to local craftsmen

Then it's possible to steal that

And a lot of stuff China produces are still shoddy knock-offs of the US version.

As for your second point,it’s because by the time said person starts trying to research and produce guns, he’s generally already the lord or king of some country with secret police under his pay to counter espionage. He would be devoting a lot of state funding to recruit the brightest minds across the land to aid the research as well. And by the time your enemies figured out how to produce said weapon, your production team would have likely moved on to developing a more advanced version of the weapon, if not a totally different weapon altogether.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

Because it takes over a decade of training to get people who can hurl explosive fireballs over a long distance, and very often, the ability to achieve this is limited to less than 1% of the population in a isekai situation. If a lot of them are somehow killed in a war then your country is super screwed. Even early guns are good because you can train a larger percentage of your population to fight in a couple of weeks. Even bows for example takes decades to master if you want to be proficient at it in a military setting.

There is often a limitation as well to how widespread magic is as well. If it’s not then a lot of peasants in isekai novels wouldn’t be farming for subsistence.

An average army is made up of less than 1% of the nations population anyway.

Also the "guns can be effective after a couple weeks" is BS. That's not muskets, much less their earlier prototypes. That's rifles, and the thing they can be easily trained for is massed fire in formation without aiming.

Unless the magic system is deliberately set so low that it can't exceed the range of a musket or the power of a cannon, they'll never make it past the original stage, much less the point of actual massed fire formations.

If the mages are at even the relatively modest levels of something like Danmachi, much less something like Negima/Highschool DxD/Nanoha or god forbid the reaches of DnD, anything below modern firearms would be a joke.

Edit: For clarification, muskets and earlier weapons did used massed fire and volley fire, they just weren't actually lethally effective at long range until rifling came around.

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

As for your second point,it’s because by the time said person starts trying to research and produce guns, he’s generally already the lord or king of some country with secret police under his pay to counter espionage. He would be devoting a lot of state funding to recruit the brightest minds across the land to aid the research as well. And by the time your enemies figured out how to produce said weapon, your production team would have likely moved on to developing a more advanced version of the weapon, if not a totally different weapon altogether.

Why the hell is he already in position power BEFORE exploiting guns cheat?

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by XFire

An average army is made up of less than 1% of the nations population anyway.

Also the "guns can be effective after a couple weeks" is BS. That's not muskets, much less their earlier prototypes. That's rifles, and the thing they can be easily trained for is massed fire in formation without aiming.

Unless the magic system is deliberately set so low that it can't exceed the range of a musket or the power of a cannon, they'll never make it past the original stage, much less the point of actual massed fire formations.

If the mages are at even the relatively modest levels of something like Danmachi, much less something like Negima/Highschool DxD/Nanoha or god forbid the reaches of DnD, anything below modern firearms would be a joke.

Edit: For clarification, muskets and earlier weapons did used massed fire and volley fire, they just weren't actually lethally effective at long range until rifling came around.

And most of said 1% probably would be scouted to be trained in the first place. It takes a lot of money to train mages.

In normal fantasy settings, if mages are so OP, then melee soldiers like knights probably wouldn’t have been able to exist.Truth is that normal fantasy nations have scores of regularly foot soldiers who aren’t even knights. This indicates that the ability to make up the numbers of an army is still desired.

Early gunners can definitely be trained to be effective after a couple of weeks. It’s why early guns ended up replacing bows in the first place, despite being less accurate and dangerous to the user.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

And most of said 1% probably would be scouted to be trained in the first place. It takes a lot of money to train mages.

In normal fantasy settings, if mages are so OP, then melee soldiers like knights probably wouldn’t have been able to exist.Truth is that normal fantasy nations have scores of regularly foot soldiers who aren’t even knights. This indicates that the ability to make up the numbers of an army is still desired.

Early gunners can definitely be trained to be effective after a couple of weeks. It’s why early guns ended up replacing bows in the first place, despite being highly accurate and dangerous to the user.

Why? Generally the training involves a regular school attendance for 5-10 years and then yeet them nuclear fireballs.

In most isekai settings its because the foot soldiers are also superhuman. I realize most authors don't actually calculate the speed and power behind the stuff their characters do, but to pick on Danmachi again, the high level melee fighters in there are fast enough to dodge lightning bolts. No modern weapon save a laser could hit them. And they hit each other with strikes that exceed any kind of non strategic ordinance we can muster. Hence numbers still matter.

Not really, no. It took centuries for them to fully replace bows, and even that wasn't fully completed until the mass production of the musket was in process. Even then, the kill ratio of the musket actually fell below that of a good bowman, it was just that muskets were loud as fuck and you couldn't see them coming. So they scared the hell out of horses and you couldn't pull up a shield to block the incoming fire like with arrows.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by XFire

Why? Generally the training involves a regular school attendance for 5-10 years and then yeet them nuclear fireballs.

In most isekai settings its because the foot soldiers are also superhuman. I realize most authors don't actually calculate the speed and power behind the stuff their characters do, but to pick on Danmachi again, the high level melee fighters in there are fast enough to dodge lightning bolts. No modern weapon save a laser could hit them. And they hit each other with strikes that exceed any kind of non strategic ordinance we can muster. Hence numbers still matter.

Not really, no. It took centuries for them to fully replace bows, and even that wasn't fully completed until the mass production of the musket was in process. Even then, the kill ratio of the musket actually fell below that of a good bowman, it was just that muskets were loud as fuck and you couldn't see them coming. So they scared the hell out of horses and you couldn't pull up a shield to block the incoming fire like with arrows.

No, most fantasies have grunts that are at best only above average physically compared to humans of our world. This is mainly because they actually train their bodies for physical combat. They are nowhere near super human level however.In most fantasy stories where guns are actually produced, most of them cannot dodge it.In Gate for example, some grunts even got defeated in close quarter combat when the Japanese troops fixed bayonets.A well aimed shot disables if not kills an enemy combatant.Mobs in Danmachi are not indicative of the normal ability of Danmachi world grunts because Oratoria assembles the best warriors across the world. So even a grunt in oratoria would most likely be stronger than a normal soldier outside it.

In most reincarnation fantasy settings,the MC often talks about how expensive magic education is and how they often get enrolled because of a scholarship or how they were already rich. As for ‘nuclear explosion’, that isn’t common either. People who can conjure that are generally high tier magicians(Megumin from Konosuba for example).Only a few people can do that, and the chants takes too long.It can also be too taxing to the magician. Depending on the sophistication of the artillery system, modern artillery would be more effective than mages because they could be fired on a more regular basis and mass produced.

Furthermore, most wars in actual fantasy settings actually consists of high ranked fighters fighting each other while the grunts fights the grunts. Should the grunts of one side emerge victorious, then the champion of the losing side would be disadvantaged in a fight against other champions. So any ability to increase the size and combat ability of the grunts is a plus. Modern technology not only allow more people to take up arms, but actually increase food and tax production such that governments are able to raise and sustain larger armies out in the field.

Bows were phased out when arquebus entered full production. What was special about early firearms is that they provide greater armour penetration than bows and as mentioned easier to train people with. Bows will always beat arquebus in a 1v1 fight due to bowmen being much better trained and more accurate in general, but such bowmen will always take at least a decade to train, plus the bowmen were beginning to have difficult penetrating armour. The increased number of arquebusiers rendered losses in bow-centric armies unviable on a purely attrition basis.

Nonetheless, in a fantasy setting, even early firearms aren’t necessarily poor inaccurate things due to the incorporation of magitech.

[wuhugm]

^Okay then

I wish more female MC or winning heroine have exotic appearance
Like this

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Why the hell is he already in position power BEFORE exploiting guns cheat?

Long answer:
1.MC is already a king/emperor or a member of the royal family.
2.MC is a already a noble in charge of a large fief.
3.MC isn’t actually dense and marries a princess/queen/empress early on in the story and actually take over their country.
4.MC is ore tueee and managed to take over a country after attracting enough followers to form an army that helps him conquer the place.
5.MC got granted a fief for his services
6.MC got invited to be a ruler through an election.
7.A combination of all of the above.

All of this does not necessarily have to be done at the end. It could be done midway through the story or earlier.

Short answer:
The author wills it!

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^Okay then

I wish more female MC or winning heroine have exotic appearance
Like this

Thank you for your response!

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

Long answer:
1.MC is already a king/emperor or a member of the royal family.
2.MC is a already a noble in charge of a large fief.
3.MC isn’t actually dense and marries a princess/queen/empress early on in the story and actually take over their country.
4.MC is ore tueee and managed to take over a country after attracting enough followers to form an army that helps him conquer the place.
5.MC got granted a fief for his services
6.MC got invited to be a ruler through an election.
7.A combination of all of the above.

All of this does not necessarily have to be done at the end. It could be done midway through the story or earlier.

Short answer:
The author wills it!

*sigh*
You need very harsh underlying conditions to be fulfilled in order to start that cheat...

I think only at King level this is actually possible to be executed
If you are just a noble, I don't think your King will allow you to gain that much power
Unless you are the heir or heir's fiance

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

*sigh*
You need very harsh underlying conditions to be fulfilled in order to start that cheat...

I think only at King level this is actually possible to be executed
If you are just a noble, I don't think your King will allow you to gain that much power
Unless you are the heir or heir's fiance

Depends on the structure and context of the realm really. In one of the novels I have read, the kingdom is basically like the Holy Roman Empire, with the crown being elective and the Dukes being de facto kings in their own fiefs.The kingdom’s also regularly under attack by a lot of external threats and as such the king had no choice but to tolerate the MC and watch as he grows even more powerful with each victory.It did not help the king’s cause that one of the elector dukes married his daughter to the MC,which gave the MC a major ally. The king ultimately had to abdicate because his ability was not up to task and he was frankly sick of dealing with the shenanigans of the other dukes in the end. All he wanted was to shove the throne off to his nephew because his son was incompetent, but even that didn’t end well.

[wuhugm]

^That's a special situation which is not really unfamiliar
Like Warring Lords in Past Japan and China
I mean Nobunaga did swept Japan with the power of guns
Probably works in that situation
Template Isekai Kingdom probably much more difficult

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Darth Fanta

No, most fantasies have grunts that are at best only above average physically compared to humans of our world. This is mainly because they actually train their bodies for physical combat. They are nowhere near super human level however.In most fantasy stories where guns are actually produced, most of them cannot dodge it.In Gate for example, some grunts even got defeated in close quarter combat when the Japanese troops fixed bayonets.A well aimed shot disables if not kills an enemy combatant.Mobs in Danmachi are not indicative of the normal ability of Danmachi world grunts because Oratoria assembles the best warriors across the world. So even a grunt in oratoria would most likely be stronger than a normal soldier outside it.

In most reincarnation fantasy settings,the MC often talks about how expensive magic education is and how they often get enrolled because of a scholarship or how they were already rich. As for ‘nuclear explosion’, that isn’t common either. People who can conjure that are generally high tier magicians(Megumin from Konosuba for example).Only a few people can do that, and the chants takes too long.It can also be too taxing to the magician. Depending on the sophistication of the artillery system, modern artillery would be more effective than mages because they could be fired on a more regular basis and mass produced.

Furthermore, most wars in actual fantasy settings actually consists of high ranked fighters fighting each other while the grunts fights the grunts. Should the grunts of one side emerge victorious, then the champion of the losing side would be disadvantaged in a fight against other champions. So any ability to increase the size and combat ability of the grunts is a plus. Modern technology not only allow more people to take up arms, but actually increase food and tax production such that governments are able to raise and sustain larger armies out in the field.

Bows were phased out when arquebus entered full production. What was special about early firearms is that they provide greater armour penetration than bows and as mentioned easier to train people with. Bows will always beat arquebus in a 1v1 fight due to bowmen being much better trained and more accurate in general, but such bowmen will always take at least a decade to train, plus the bowmen were beginning to have difficult penetrating armour. The increased number of arquebusiers rendered losses in bow-centric armies unviable on a purely attrition basis.

Nonetheless, in a fantasy setting, even early firearms aren’t necessarily poor inaccurate things due to the incorporation of magitech.

The only fantasies that do that are the ones deliberately controlling the level of power so that the "modern weapon" can be an actual threat. Freaking Lord of the Rings has the Men of the West regularly do superhuman things far beyond normal humans if you look at the lore.

Except there are always dozens to hundreds of students at that school who at least have a cursory grasp of the subject despite being there for about a year.

Megumin came from an entire village of super wizards who single handedly beat the shit out of the demon lord army, and nobody wanted her in their party because she was useless.

The idea of chants taking too long or arbitrary range restrictions is again a conceit almost entirely associated with fantasies bending over backward to create weaknesses to then make technology sound more powerful. Try and pull that with someone from Negima or Nanoha. Or DnD. Or Highschool DxD. Or the vast majority of western fantasy like the Inheritance Cycle or Riftwar Saga.

And again that only applies to those odd fantasy worlds where some people are superhuman while the majority are entirely indistinguishable from medieval peasants. Anything where magic is not deliberately restrained to be defeatable by modern tech and restricted to only a handful of people basically invalidates modern weapons.

No, they didn't. It took 200 years to phase the longbow out of military operation, and Europe did it far faster than Asia, who were still using bows into the 18th century. An army of bowman would always slaughter an army of gunmen until at least the introduction and mass production of rifled muskets, due to a massive fire rate and range advantage. Even in Europe, it was ultimately just because ammo was cheaper that it was actually fully switched over.

And if magic can do that they'd be better of creating a fireball gun.

[wuhugm]

^Okay then
Please don't revolutionize Isekai just for the sake of MC's achievements

Btw, I'm reading Brandon Sanderson again, and the details of things are on different level compared to narou
Somehow now I find that boring and wants the simplicity of narou
Damn narou is making people's IQ goes down

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by XFire

The only fantasies that do that are the ones deliberately controlling the level of power so that the "modern weapon" can be an actual threat. Freaking Lord of the Rings has the Men of the West regularly do superhuman things far beyond normal humans if you look at the lore.

Not the grunts in general though, and the Dunedain are few in numbers. Nonetheless, most of them die if they take a round. There was a discussion about how Sauron would win if he had access to just simple arquebuses because it would have cheaply raised the fighting ability of the orcs.

Originally Posted by XFire

Except there are always dozens to hundreds of students at that school who at least have a cursory grasp of the subject despite being there for about a year.

In most fantasy settings,mate school students generally come from wealthy or mage families who would have provided rudimentary magic education before they even came to school.

Originally Posted by XFire

Megumin came from an entire village of super wizards who single handedly beat the shit out of the demon lord army, and nobody wanted her in their party because she was useless.

That’s the point,only a selection of mages are able to conjure nuclear fire,within an already selective society.Megumin was useless because nuclear fire was too op,takes too long to use and that’s the only thing she could do.

Originally Posted by XFire

The idea of chants taking too long or arbitrary range restrictions is again a conceit almost entirely associated with fantasies bending over backward to create weaknesses to then make technology sound more powerful. Try and pull that with someone from Negima or Nanoha. Or DnD. Or Highschool DxD. Or the vast majority of western fantasy like the Inheritance Cycle or Riftwar Saga.

DxD is not normal fantasy.Their levels are completely off the charts.Most characters are not humans to begin with.Many characters are even gods.

As for Negima/Nanoha, Negima/Nanoha world is the epitome of magic being utilised together with technology to create something more OP. It’s not pure magic.There are air battleships that fire lasers.They are not your typical fantasy where society’s stuck in the Middle Ages, and these societies are more advanced than our own.No need to modernise. They need to modernize ours.

As for the Inheritance cycle, they exemplify the type of fantasy warfare in a typical medieval fantasy world. The champions duke it out against each other while the grunts engage each other in medieval hand to hand fighting. There’s nothing special about the grunts. Mages are generally tied up trying to create barriers or tied up in duels where they try to nullify the attacks of opposing mages and kill them. The presence of a couple hundred howitzers would have over saturated the barriers of the mages.

In regards to DnD,once again not everyone is a mage, and mages who can use nuclear magic are once again minority,otherwise other classes wouldn’t even exist.

Originally Posted by XFire

And again that only applies to those odd fantasy worlds where some people are superhuman while the majority are entirely indistinguishable from medieval peasants. Anything where magic is not deliberately restrained to be defeatable by modern tech and restricted to only a handful of people basically invalidates modern weapons.

Most isekai fantasy settings are like that......especially the webnovel ones(ie Tate no Yuusha,Arifureta etc).Most webnovels based isekai worlds takes place in a medieval society where most people farm for subsistence.Most people cannot fight and when people get into trouble from monsters/bandits,they pay the adventurer guild to take care if it.And I believe that the topic here is why the f#$k do Japanese mcs try to modernise these societies......

Originally Posted by XFire

No, they didn't. It took 200 years to phase the longbow out of military operation, and Europe did it far faster than Asia, who were still using bows into the 18th century. An army of bowman would always slaughter an army of gunmen until at least the introduction and mass production of rifled muskets, due to a massive fire rate and range advantage. Even in Europe, it was ultimately just because ammo was cheaper that it was actually fully switched over.

And if magic can do that they'd be better of creating a fireball gun.

Bows and arrows were phased out in Europe with the first hundred years of the arquebus being invented in the late 15th century. A lot of countries didn’t phase them out either because they did not have access to them or because armour technology was not sound in their area.By late 15th century, not even longbow arrows could penetrate plate armour.It’s why the English could no longer win in the late 15th century against France.