[Manga]Domestic Na Kanojo (Author of GE - Good Ending)

[Blueknight78]

i have to say this "twitter" cancer must end, i'm really tired to see so many peoples getting attacked and threatened for the "smallest things and even in many cases for "nothing" than just hate and dislike" even things that peoples attacking having nothing to do.

You have you right to not like a end, but go so far as some many "western specially as most of the times come from US, if was myself i would have already deleted my twitter account and demanded to the comic publisher to not release anymore my work to "that crazy peoples" and keep it "at home" which is more safe, the more i see the "hate growing over "everything" be manga, be anime, be draw startist, now everything is "politic and social and everyone feel like what is matter is "they feelings" and you must do as they want, at this point i'm start to thin which the most "good thing to happen" would be the twitter get hacked and deleted because at last for a brief moment we could breath a little without that crap toxic zone of hate and peopples which don't have any respect for others peoples, be gender, be race or desires or culture, specially when comes to western peoples which at this poiint are start to look worst than many "dictatory countries like china.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by XFire

Second, your statement implies active malice on the part of the writer which is BS and you know it.

It implies incompetence, not malice. And my points stands.

Originally Posted by XFire

People who take something that already had fans and then change it into something else are wholly separate from people who created something that the gained a fandom, and then followed it through to the ending they had in mind in the first place.

That's besides the point. If the mangaka can't stand criticism, that's a problem on her end, not the fans.

Originally Posted by XFire

Also, something you're ignoring is that the author's only comment was that they were recieving large amounts of harassment....

That's just her whining. Most of the comments I saw were just criticism.

Originally Posted by XFire

from overseas fans. Who were never the intended audience in the first place.

The manga is licensed. The people who read the legal translation have a right to have an opinion no matter how negative it might be. If the publisher didn't want that, they shouldn't have licensed it in the first place.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It implies incompetence, not malice. And my points stands.

You said they were "screwing with fans", a purposeful act of malice. Your point is broken.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's besides the point. If the mangaka can't stand criticism, that's a problem on her end, not the fans.

This is a non sequitur to what I was saying and an attempt to deflect from your own false comparison.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's just her whining. Most of the comments I saw were just criticism.

Really? Because it took me like five minutes to start coming across death threats.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The manga is licensed. The people who read the legal translation have a right to have an opinion no matter how negative it might be. If the publisher didn't want that, they shouldn't have licensed it in the first place.

The manga was licensed by the publisher, not the author. And it was done because overseas readers asked for it, meaning that they literally asked for this.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by XFire

You said they were "screwing with fans", a purposeful act of malice.

That's just your interpretation. I don't believe neither Rian Johnson (if we're talking SW, for example) or Sasuka Kei had any malice, but they're still screwed with the fans all the same. Johnson for not respecting an established franchise and Kei just for being incompetent as a storyteller.

This is a non sequitur to what I was saying and an attempt to deflect from your own false comparison.

My point was just that in both cases they screwed the fans. That's all that matters really.

Really? Because it took me like five minutes to start coming across death threats.

There's always gonna be some nutcases, but most comments were just criticism.

The manga was licensed by the publisher, not the author. And it was done because overseas readers asked for it, meaning that they literally asked for this.

The point is, if the manga is legally distributed, the audience has a right to have an opinion. That's all there is to it.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's just your interpretation. I don't believe neither Rian Johnson (if we're talking SW, for example) or Sasuka Kei had any malice, but they're still screwed with the fans all the same. Johnson for not respecting an established franchise and Kei just for being incompetent as a storyteller.

That's not what "screwing with someone" means, and you know it. Johnson said from the outset he was going to make people mad. Kei just wrote the story the way they intended.

For that matter it's not even accurate, because calling someone incompetent because a group outside the target demographic (that you happen to be part of) didn't like their ending is a level of self centeredness that would make Narcissus blush.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

My point was just that in both cases they screwed the fans. That's all that matters really.

Your "point" was a false comparison between two entirely different things, and now you're trying to gloss over it because it shows how weak your statement is.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

There's always gonna be some nutcases, but most comments were just criticism.

No, most were "lol this manga suxx" except with more profanity, and then there were the death threats. There was like one post that had something that could be called a reasoned complaint.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The point is, if the manga is legally distributed, the audience has a right to have an opinion. That's all there is to it.

Yeah, no. It wasn't meant for them, and they asked for it. Complaining after that is just sour grapes.

[XFire]

To emphasize this again, the backlash is only coming from overseas. There's nothing about it in Japan. You asked for it, you got it, and then you threw a hissy fit when you decided it wasn't what you wanted.

[Blueknight78]

i think many peoples are forgeting something called "target public adience", it's not because peoples outside the "target public audience" bought the stuff" which they were the peoples target for the product, then if the peoples target get what they want and no complain but the "non target complained, maybe not was the fault of the "seller" because the product not was made for them, just because some companies decide to sell something target to "one group" to every one it's not the fault of the person which "made the stuff" if it had made for "one target group".

And while i ca understand peoples frustration and also "bad writing", i can't excuse "death threads and things like that, which were twitter just become the worst place ever.

[Tenzen12]

You are make it sound like you think someone tries to ake excuse for death threats. Wackos exist we all know it. Fortunatelly there is not many of those, in this particular case certainly not enough to be considered some kind of harassment campaign or reason refuse completely legit critique.

"Harassment" is very quickly becomming buzzword used to refuse any and every criticism. And yeah even "lol this manga suxx" count as one.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You are make it sound like you think someone tries to ake excuse for death threats. Wackos exist we all know it. Fortunatelly there is not many of those, in this particular case certainly not enough to be considered some kind of harassment campaign or reason refuse completely legit critique.

"Harassment" is very quickly becomming buzzword used to refuse any and every criticism. And yeah even "lol this manga suxx" count as one.

Spamming someone's social media account with profanity laden messages about how they wrote the "shittiest f**king manga evah" does not count as a legit criticism.

And as I said before....

Originally Posted by XFire

To emphasize this again, the backlash is only coming from overseas. There's nothing about it in Japan. You asked for it, you got it, and then you threw a hissy fit when you decided it wasn't what you wanted.

[Tenzen12]

WHAT?! Spaming social media account with profanities isn't legit criticism? Thank you for saying that to me. I wouldn't know otherwise! ... But seriously you can do better then just going for strawman.

Also it doesn't matter from which place criticism comes from only whether it's earned or not.

[RDNexus]

In this case, I agree with @XFire. That kind of criticism is totally unwanted
What one needs is constructive feedback that helps to better develop their current or potentially future stories.
That kind of criticism only crushes one's efforts at storytelling and their own self-esteem.

Her complaints can either mean:
a) She's an incompetent, selfish author who cares little about her audience.
b) The harassment reached a point she can no longer take it and has to vent.

Now... Do you really think trash-talk, harassment or death threats are needed at all?

[Tenzen12]

Harassment and death threats are not just unnecessary but wrong and I believe even illegal.

Trash talk like saying Sasuga is incompetent or that story suck is legit at point it's obvious why they think so. Because yes her writing indeed suck and story was finished incompetent. Not everyone have to write essay to voice discontent individually with quality of writing. In this particular case everyone are aware why ending suck as heck. Trash talk might not be constructive but it's still fair game as long as it does not get too profane.

If I bothered myself with Twitter I might tell her how much her writing suck too. Well not her specifically as I don't give a damn about DK, but for example Negi wouldn't be able avoid it.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

WHAT?! Spaming social media account with profanities isn't legit criticism? Thank you for saying that to me. I wouldn't know otherwise! ... But seriously you can do better then just going for strawman.

Also it doesn't matter from which place criticism comes from only whether it's earned or not.

Considering you've been repeatedly insisting it was in fact legit criticism, the sarcasm seems a bit self-defeating.

Also, the guy who tried to say a twitter feed full of profanity and death threats was "mostly just criticism" doesn't get to use a "strawman" argument.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Harassment and death threats are not just unnecessary but wrong and I believe even illegal.

Trash talk like saying Sasuga is incompetent or that story suck is legit at point it's obvious why they think so. Because yes her writing indeed suck and story was finished incompetent. Not everyone have to write essay to voice discontent individually with quality of writing. In this particular case everyone are aware why ending suck as heck. Trash talk might not be constructive but it's still fair game as long as it does not get too profane.

If I bothered myself with Twitter I might tell her how much her writing suck too. Well not her specifically as I don't give a damn about DK, but for example Negi wouldn't be able avoid it.

Yeah, no. What you're describing is bitching and moaning coming from a particular subset of readers outside the demographic it was written for. This is not a universal sentiment, it's only coming from people who specifically asked to be let in and then threw a fit when it wasn't what they wanted.

All you're doing is trying to push your personal subjective view of "quality" as some kind of objective gold standard that authors have to adhere to or else they're incompetent, which is laughable at best.

[Tenzen12]

Strawman again. From very beginning I insisted to NOT inflate criticism with death threats and harassment. You are one who make it sound other two are prevalent. I can put here multiple quotes where I condemned such behavior.

And yes people who say it was mostly criticim do not get strawman argument, because that's simply true.

And no writing is not subjective no matter how much you try play such card. You can indeed argue about how much I have grasp of it, but standards exist, can be studied and applied. Objectively good story wouldn't get such backslash even if it went with unpopular choice (Multiple precedents exist to prove that even in field of room-coms) in first place so that argument is pretty much void anyway.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Strawman again. From very beginning I insisted to NOT inflate criticism with death threats and harassment. You are one who make it sound other two are prevalent. I can put here multiple quotes where I condemned such behavior.

And yes people who say it was mostly criticim do not get strawman argument, because that's simply true.

You were insisting that most of the comments were just criticism, then proceeded to say that the "lol this manga suxx" comments counted towards part of that.

As in the phrasing I used in the post you quoted to refer to the profanity laden bitching posts.

And trying to pretend that the majority of the response was not profanity laden bitching and moaning is kind of pointless when the twitter feed and hashtags are still openly available and it takes all of ten seconds to go there and find fifty posts of "f**k you".

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And no writing is not subjective no matter how much you try play such card. You can indeed argue about how much I have grasp of it, but standards exist, can be studied and applied. Objectively good story wouldn't get such backslash even if it went with unpopular choice (Multiple precedents exist to prove that even in field of room-coms) in first place so that argument is pretty much void anyway.

.....I don't think I've ever actually seen someone seriously try to defend "objective writing standards" before. I'm pretty sure i have to start at basic common sense and work my way back up to explain how terrible this argument is, so forgive me if i forget to fill in every blank.

"Standards" are born from the culture the reader exists in. Those standards change as culture changes. Different cultures will have different standards. Are you with me so far?

None of those standards are "objectively" superior to any of the others, as they are literally nothing but a form of group think resulting from shared experience.

The attempt to study those standards is also inherently meaningless since the lenses from which they are studied and judged varies as wildly and constantly as the standards themselves. Hence why stories that are "ahead of it's time" show up, as it just means that standards shift to bring it into a more favorable light.

And to bring this back to the forefront because you keep trying to avoid addressing it, this story was written by and for people with different standards than overseas readers, and then they proceeded to throw a tantrum when it failed to live up to their standards which were never under consideration in the first place.

Trying to present any kind of literary "standard" as anything more than a current majority opinion of whatever group thought it up is a display of such blatant bias towards that group that any claim of objectivity is comical to the point of parody

[Blueknight78]

i only consider "trash talking" as a "argument" and maybe valid criticism when it comes with "valid arguments" just trash talking for the sake of trash talking and bitch i can't consider a "valid criticism", if you can't pull a proper argument even if i don't agree with it it is by no means "fine" at last in my view, it's only make you looks like a "trash, bitch person" which in my view don't diserve to have any speak if you can't proper express a opnion without being trash talk.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by XFire

You were insisting that most of the comments were just criticism, then proceeded to say that the "lol this manga suxx" comments counted towards part of that.

Yes.

As in the phrasing I used in the post you quoted to refer to the profanity laden bitching posts.


And trying to pretend that the majority of the response was not profanity laden bitching and moaning is kind of pointless when the twitter feed and hashtags are still openly available and it takes all of ten seconds to go there and find fifty posts of "f**k you".

And I condemned those that goes overborad. "f**k you" doesn't really go overboard, though I wouldn't go that far myself. And yes majority is legit criticism, even if ladded with fair share easily understandable bitterness caused by author terrible writing

.....I don't think I've ever actually seen someone seriously try to defend "objective writing standards" before. I'm pretty sure i have to start at basic common sense and work my way back up to explain how terrible this argument is, so forgive me if i forget to fill in every blank.

"Standards" are born from the culture the reader exists in. Those standards change as culture changes. Different cultures will have different standards. Are you with me so far?

None of those standards are "objectively" superior to any of the others, as they are literally nothing but a form of group think resulting from shared experience.

The attempt to study those standards is also inherently meaningless since the lenses from which they are studied and judged varies as wildly and constantly as the standards themselves. Hence why stories that are "ahead of it's time" show up, as it just means that standards shift to bring it into a more favorable light.

And to bring this back to the forefront because you keep trying to avoid addressing it, this story was written by and for people with different standards than overseas readers, and then they proceeded to throw a tantrum when it failed to live up to their standards which were never under consideration in the first place.

Trying to present any kind of literary "standard" as anything more than a current majority opinion of whatever group thought it up is a display of such blatant bias towards that group that any claim of objectivity is comical to the point of parody

Well if you never seen anyone defend "objective writing standards" that just show how little you know, you should broaden your horizons then. It's common knowledge. But yes you have few point that are true, there are multiple standards based on genre and culture. If you aknowledge that's the case I don't see why are you trying argue against it

Well there isn't any culture or genre where this would work anyway. Just because there isn't big outrage (or just because we don't see it) doesn't mean anytone think it was good end. Sasuga Kei herself also mentioned there were criticism, strong reaction oversea included (implying it got criticism in japan too even if weaker.)

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yes.

So were you lying when you tried to sarcastically clap back at me by saying profanity laden social media spamming wasn't criticism or are you lying to me now?

Or are you just so turned around you cant keep your stance straight?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And I condemned those that goes overborad. "f**k you" doesn't really go overboard, though I wouldn't go that far myself. And yes majority is legit criticism, even if ladded with fair share easily understandable bitterness caused by author terrible writing.

No, it isn't, and your insistence that it is only hurts your argument further since anyone can check the feed themselves and see how "reasonable" the readers are being.

And your continued attempts to try and pan the writer as a way to justify their behavior is only making yourself look bad at this point. Its sour grapes from an armchair critic with nothing to back up their assertions.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well if you never seen anyone defend "objective writing standards" that just show how little you know, you should broaden your horizons then. It's common knowledge. But yes you have few point that are true, there are multiple standards based on genre and culture. If you aknowledge that's the case I don't see why are you trying argue against it

"Common knowledge". A view that is near universally considered to be laughably shallow and indefensible is now "common knowledge" because.....you said so?

I noticed that you also didn't even try to counter or contradict any of my points and instead went for a non sequitur to try and somehow make the evidence that "standards" are constantly fluid and therefore inherently subjective....defend your stance on them being objective.

You admitting that "standards" are temporary cultural constructs that vary wildly based on time and location and then saying you dont understand why they are inherently subjective is not a good look.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well there isn't any culture or genre where this would work anyway. Just because there isn't big outrage (or just because we don't see it) doesn't mean anytone think it was good end. For your information single mothers get plenty of contempt in japan due their traditionalism.

So you are now assuming that they must hate the ending because you do, even though the tweet you based all this on references wide spread support from Japan.

And then you throw in a non-sequitur about Japanese culture for no reason. For your information most people dont really approve of theft, doesnt mean heist movies aren't popular.


Seriously, dude, you're defending the indefensible at this point, and you're making yourself look bad in the process. Between contradicting yourself and trying to hold up one of the most basic logical fallacies as "common knowledge", you're coming off as just an apologist for the whiners on social media.

[XFire]

Oh hey, you edited out the attack on Japanese culture. Sneaky.

Your new point is arguably even worse seeing as how the tweet says she had an overflow of support and she was just taken off guard by the overseas reaction, meaning you're now being deliberately misleading.

[Tenzen12]

Nah she said she got she deal with lot of taboos so she got lot of criticism. She then elaborated especialy strong reaction from oversea suprised her. Her words not mine.

And I don't see where I were supposed did lie. Spamming social media with profanity isn't legit criticism. In matter of fact spamming anything is. This discussion would much easier if you didn't try putting words in my mouth every time. And whether I am making myself look bad is not up to you decide.

Also just because you don't aknowledge something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Common knowledge means knowledge that majority of people knows. If you aren't one of them doesn't make it any less true. I just use google, ask your literature teacher if you are still in touch or really just ask people who read and they will give you very similiar answers. Try it, before accusing others. Standarts might differ based on culture, but they never differ radically. That's why we can appreciate such stories as Epos of Gilgamesh or Oddyssey. There is nothing temporary about that

If you attack me for being "apologist" then you aren't any different with exception you are making excuse for author instead.

And yes in japan single mothers are often frowned upon. I concluded it's not all that relevant to discussion, so I deleted it. You want it here that much then sure I will say it there

Anyway if we are to continue to this topic, better tone down personal attacks. Or just end this discussion altogether. I am fine with either.