2009-01-06, 08:11 | Link #881 |
Nyunga Ro Chaga
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Creative introduction? Man, the first episode makes me feel seriously cheated. I was just getting comfortable with Tooru and his partners. They shouldn't make non-important characters looked so important. Overall the show was okay still, but I couldn't forget the cast in episode 1.
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2009-01-06, 09:24 | Link #882 | |
User of the "Fast Draw"
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Still think Mei would have died from her injuries when she rejected the stone as it was. She would have likely died from just that butterfly guy's attacks, but add on what Yomi did and that's just way too much. Though wouldn't deny that last attack was driven by all the pain and rage she had tossed at her within the last 24 hours. Don't think you can parallel Kagura's father and Yomi that well. He had a lot of time to deal with waht happened to his wife. There was simply no time for Yomi to deal with all that had happened to her. Her 'father' died, her future was being taken away, and then was getting taunted about how Mei murdered him. Anyway just feel sorry for Yomi since she clearly had been manipulated through all of this.
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2009-01-06, 09:53 | Link #883 |
Banned
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I think that debating if lawyers and judges would find Yomi guilty in a court is rather irrelevant. The point is that Yomi was out for blood, however justified or not her actions were, this was the tipping point that turned her from hero to villain. On the other hand you can see how Kagura (again out of of naivity or idealism) does not cross that line and is motivated by love for her opponent (remember the tag-line) not from hate as her onee-chan!
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2009-01-06, 10:33 | Link #884 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Whatever excuses that Yomi might bring up to defend her action is irrelevant compared to her frame of mind at the time. She was purely interested in revenge, and she wasn't even slightly interested in hearing any of Mei's reasoning - she just wanted her dead. In certain works where the morality of actions isn't a big concern, that can be passed off as inconsequential, but it's a lot more effective when it can be played as part of a larger theme as was done here. Quote:
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And that's the other reason why the scene was so effective. If the audience couldn't empathise with Yomi at that very moment, then she'd be a simple villain, and the story would be that much weaker for it. Yomi's characterization is emminently human, and her foibles are easy to feel sympathy for, and it's the combination of feeling supportive of a character as she's performing a heinous act that elevates Ga-rei Zero from a lot of other shows.
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2009-01-06, 10:37 | Link #885 | |
Political refugee
Join Date: Mar 2003
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The rest is... well, it's like reading a politically correct answer from a textbook. You elevate the murderer to victim status. I'd say most of what you write is downright immoral. Given the situation Yomi was in, and all the surrounding circumstances, there was nothing immoral about her actions. I do find condemning someone in that situation immoral, though. Mei and Yomi were both spectres. It's stated quite clearly that the stone turns their soul into a spectre, when she's discussing it with the white haired kid. Also, Yomi said so herself, that she was "one who spreads the taint of death" or something similar, and that the exorcists' job was to get rid of them. Basically, she was corrupted, not the same person and could not be saved (which was stated repeatedly in the show). Killing for revenge is not petty in itself, especially not if the person who killed is one who is guaranteed to do so again, and is evil in the purest sense of the word. There are just so many ways to justify it; The murderer doesn't deserve to live. You get closure. You avenge the person who was killed. The murderer gets to feel the pain she inflicted upon someone else. She doesn't get the chance to harm anyone else. Feeling and acting on hatred isn't automatically a negative thing. As always, it depends on the circumstances. If you hate someone out of petty jealousy, that's bad. If you hate someone for murdering your family, that's perfectly understandable. I've never understood the morals behind making the murderer appear like a victim, while accusing the victim of murder. Also, as you seemed to have completely ignored in my previous post: Yomi acted the way she did, because she knew she could. Again, Mei was corrupted and could not be saved. She would be killed one way or another. So she acted on her impulses. Once again, I'm convinced she wouldn't have done so if she had been human. As I already stated, she disarmed her without killing her when she thought she was still human. Only after it was clear that she was no longer human, and about 20 seconds after Mei was about to kill a fallen Yomi and taunting her about torturing her father, did she strike the final blow. Anyway, while Mei might have been at Yomi's mercy, there is no indication that the situation would stay that way. She might have regenerated and gone back to fighting, at which point she would be invulnerable again. Even Yomi had moments where she reverted back to her normal self, after having been corrupted, but those rarely lasted more than a minute. Lastly, she might not have felt that she was fighting Mei at all. She might have been angry at specter Mei, and considered the real Mei already dead. She wanted to exact revenge on the corrupted Mei, which she did. I mean, she still refers to Mei as Mei-neesan (an affectionate term) after having killed her, meaning she might not have held a grudge against the real Mei at all, knowing it was the work of the corruption. In fact, she's quite angry when talking with the kid afterwards, for having corrupted Mei, so she doesn't seem to hold any blame against her. Zippi: Yeah, I kinda agree. While I don't think it was for the wrong reasons, I think that's what they were trying to make a point out of in the show. Still, I'm arguing with the people who say she committed murder, which I find bizarre. Last edited by Chastain; 2009-01-06 at 10:52. |
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2009-01-06, 10:48 | Link #886 |
Political refugee
Join Date: Mar 2003
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4tran: What I mean by political correctness, is that whole concept of murder. The politically correct view is to say that you can't kill an unarmed person, no matter how many crimes or how many people they've hurt. I just find it silly that if she had killed her 10 seconds earlier without tying her up, it would have been perfectly fine. It's just this ridiculously naive view, without any grounding in reality.
You see this all the time in the movies as well, and it's a scene I absolutely hate due to its predictability. The badguy has killed dozens of people and almost murdered the hero, when he trips and hangs off a cliff. Then the hero goes and tries to save him, at the risk of his own life. Urgh... |
2009-01-06, 11:00 | Link #887 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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I, myself have lost my temper on numerous occasions and have gotten into trouble because of it. That doesn't mean I can skirt responsibility for my actions. You, my friend, might just need to Spoiler for life changing advice:
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2009-01-06, 11:14 | Link #888 |
Political refugee
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Slick: No, Mei killed out of jealousy, though she might not have gone through with that had she not been corrupted. Yomi had never done anything to her. Her father had made the choice. Mei didn't even bother discussing it with Yomi.
Anyway, you really need to reevaluate your morals, if you think a serial killer who kills and tortures for fun is as bad as a father who wants to take revenge for having his family killed, after the aforementioned serial killer is found not guilty due to a technicality. What is that saying, anyway? All that's needed for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing. As for losing my temper, that's never really happened. Been in plenty of fights, but I've never thrown the first punch. Unlike you, I have a set or morals, where actions and consequences have a correlation. I really wonder though. If someone close to you had been tortured and murdered, and you knew who it was, but he was not convicted, would you simply do nothing? |
2009-01-06, 11:43 | Link #889 | ||||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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2009-01-06, 11:56 | Link #890 |
Political refugee
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Slick: Insulting your morals? You said yourself you lose your temper, which implies that you're a hypocrite. I live by what I say. I don't hit first. I generally treat people well, and react to how they treat me. I'm usually the guy who tries to go inbetween people who argue. You're a horrible judge of character, really.
I do have an overinflated sense of justice, since I've seen too many lives ruined, and too many people getting away with it. Basically, punishment should be equal to what they've inflicted on others. If you call what Mei did revenge, you might want to pick up a dictionary. And in my previous posts, I was clearly referring to revenging murders, as that's what we're discussing here. I'm not saying I justify killing someone over trivial matters. |
2009-01-06, 12:32 | Link #891 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-01-06, 12:46 | Link #892 | |
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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@Chastain: I think you are taking things personally now. There is no need for you to start to and question Slick_rick’s morals or to start to defend your own like that just because you two have different opinions.
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@4Tran: I agree on those points as well. Yomi even admitted herself to have killed Mei not as a last resort but due to hatred.
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2009-01-06, 12:51 | Link #893 |
Political refugee
Join Date: Mar 2003
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4tran: What makes you think Yomi wasn't thinking about those things? Just because she showed anger while killing her, doesn't mean she's some maniac who has no control.
If you claim I can't know what she's thinking, what makes you think you can? She's used to killing specters. She knows that when they're gone, they can't be saved, and it's been implied in flashbacks she's had to take part in killing corrupted agents herself. When in that mode, I don't see her having a problem killing specter Mei, as her death would have been the only possible outcome, anyway. She even knew about the specifics about the stone. The only thing that could have come from Yomi temporarily sparing her life, was maybe to hear Mei apologize or begging for her life for another minute, before bleeding out. If Mei had been human and had a chance of surviving, I am, as stated, convinced Yomi wouldn't have killed her. As mentioned, she showed considerably more restraint when she thought she was still human, despite the fact that she had just tried to kill her. As for the morality of it all, that's highly subjective. In Japan, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's actually considered honorable to take revenge for murders commited against your family. I share their views more than the murder loving views we apparently have in the west. Arab: So you don't consider "grow up" an insult? Also, I'm not saying any murder should be avenged by another murder. I'm saying taking the opportunity, when the enemy is clearly malevolent, and you're in a heated combat situation with your life on the line, then you're allowed to take the chance, even if you have disabled the enemy. And again, she's NOT A FREAKIN' HUMAN! Last edited by Chastain; 2009-01-06 at 13:02. |
2009-01-06, 13:25 | Link #894 |
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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But we know that Yomi didn't kill Mei because she was in the heat of battle. We had a scene in episode 9 where Kagura was asking her that if she did kill Mei due to hatred, and she answered that she had done so. She didn’t care that Mei was human or not, she only wanted her to be dead. I’m not saying that Yomi wasn’t wrong in wanting to have revenge or that she lost her sympathy when she killed Mei, but that didn’t make the act itself any right. And as for killing the corrupt agents, there wasn’t any other way to stop them, so it was the only option they had at that time where their job required. Yomi was going to kill Mei, human or not.
And I'm saying that there is just no need to take things to the point where people start questioning eachothers morals.
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2009-01-06, 13:26 | Link #895 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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It's a rebuke, but it's a relatively mild one. Let's let this part of the discussion drop, and concentrate on Ga-rei Zero. Quote:
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2009-01-06, 13:49 | Link #896 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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Revenge-to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree. That you don't feel that she had reason for revenge doesn't change the fact that in her mind that it was vengeance for all the wrong Yomi had done to her. Get vengeance for someone murder is a slippery road too. Doesn't Mei father have a right to kill Yomi now? I mean Yomi didn't give Mei a chance to explain the situation so why should he? We the viewers know what Mei did but her father doesn't and by all right he should be upset at the lost of his daughter. If Yomi could take justice into her own hands then why can't he? And where does it end?
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2009-01-06, 16:48 | Link #897 |
my sides are in orbit
Join Date: Nov 2007
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i have been a member of certain abrahamic sect for 24 years, and i know that revenge is a vital part of enforcing the law. anyone may sugarcoat it as justice or divine retribution, but in the end damage must be inflicted to those who cause damage to begin with.
however, there's one thing about Yomi('s action): even if Mei is going to be handed down death sentence in the end, Yomi has the responsibility to bring Mei to the authority, and it would be to the Agency. Yomi can squee all she wants when Mei meet her end, but before that she must arrest Mei. why? because Yomi is bound by certain rules as an exorcist, and that make her a law enforcer of some sort. furthermore, if she wait for just a little bit of time, Noriyuki and co will appear in the scene. she had no way of knowing this though-- let alone a cool head to contemplate this possibility. arresting Mei will also benefit greatly in the investigation of Naraku's death. it will eventually lead Agency to realize that there's a gravely dangerous puppet master manipulating things from behind, and a lot --i mean A LOT-- of lives can be saved. granted, Yomi was still a minor (she wore serafuku!) when this whole bloody hell happened. there's this thing called chains of destiny, it's forcing people to do things they aren't yet psychologically capable, and it's a central theme in Ga-Rei -Zero-. in the end, personally i can't judge whether Yomi, in Mei's death, was a bloody murderer or a tragic victim-- for she's dead and can't present her arguments. one thing for sure is that in the end she's responsible for a lot of death, and someone have to stop her before she cause further loss of lives. my $0.02
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2009-01-06, 17:00 | Link #898 | |
User of the "Fast Draw"
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When Mei rejected the stone and understood what she did those injuries came in. Think the only thing I think Yomi would have returned would have been a corpse. Assuming she wouldn't have still been ambushed by the Butterfly guy. Still whether it was her job or not that final blow was about lost control. Considering all that happened in the story would still leave her as a victim. Just too bad she and other characters were being played around with.
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2009-01-06, 17:05 | Link #899 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 38
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2009-01-06, 18:12 | Link #900 |
Let's Puppystyle!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Best Place In The WORLD
Age: 32
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Honestly, i felt this little "prequel" was great, even though i never read the manga past chapter 2...I started reading it after i saw this anime, but i don't think it's "that" interesting so far.
Anyway, back to the actual anime itself. The character developments were great, and yes, it made me all emotional~ee(i know, not a word but deal with it). Yes kagura hesitated a lot, but it's understandable...come on she's what? In 8th grade? Im not sure but she's pretty young, and it's already hard for adults to pull the trigger, think an 8th grader is ready for it too? As for episode 1...yeah i hated it...why? Because natsuki died :'(...natsukiiii...but putting that aside, i guess you can see it as giving the "viewers" a kind of feeling/insight on how others, just as interesting or "cute" as these 4, get slaughtered, making the deaths of all those other soldiers a bit more "meaningful" or...a bit more easier to relate to? It's hard to put what im thinking in words, but i think this way, those soldiers who we don't really know about...you can put them in the position of the cast in the first episode and sorta go "oh..." damn, not just oh w/e a few more "noobs" got killed. And i still can't get that funny expression outta my head...the one yomi makes in ep 1 when she's like "Helloooooo kagura" |
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action, shounen |
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