[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The definition of "Hint" isn't clear. What can be considered a hint? A hint is not something manifest, you can't expect something like: hey person X disguised as Beatrice. That isn't a "hint".

If that Beatrice is Jessica, the fact they look similar could be a hint. Or maybe not. We lack a definition of what is it necessary for something to qualify as hint.

If you hadn't see the ura tea party and I asked you what kind of hint can prove Battler isn't the detective of ep5, would you really think about that scene? Personally I wouldn't be sure at all.

Spoiler:

Already knowing Kinzo is dead in EP4, it was pretty easy to figure out something was up.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Or that she already dressed up as a witch.

If Jessica is Beatrice then here's the series of events for episode 4:

1) Jessica calls up Battler saying that when he finds her she will be dead with her head split open.
2) Jessica calls Battler again pretending to be Beatrice and challenges him.
3) They meet at the mansion balcony and Battler can't remember the sin.
4) Jessica kills herself because he didn't remember the sin.
5) Battler finds Jessica dead just as she said she would be.

So what was the purpose of the first call? She had a feeling that he wouldn't remember the sin so she was prepared to kill herself?

[Kitsu]

Maybe it was to trick Battler into believing into witches making her Beatrice disguise perfect..
But I'm not a real big fan of Jessica=Beatrice...I find it quite reasonable but I don't like it

[Jan-Poo]

Already knowing Kinzo is dead in EP4, it was pretty easy to figure out something was up.

Not the point. There isn't any knox rule that prevents the detective from having delusions, it looks like it is a hidden rule.

So if you hadn't seen the ura tea party you wouldn't know if that event was good enough to claim Battler isn't the detective.

[Renall]

The only two feasible candidates I can see for skirt-Beatrice are Jessica and Shannon, leaning heavily toward Shannon. Of course nothing says it can't be both of them (Shannon in ep1/2, Jessica in ep4, both at once, or whatever).

Kumasawa is a possible staker/note person/magic circle drawing person. If she was indeed the "predecessor Beatrice" to the human Beatrice (the fact that she's associated with Virgilia is kind of a heavy-handed hint), it's possible she passed that information to the current "Beatrice" (Shannon or Jessica) who passed it to Maria. That would leave at least three people capable of making the circles or doing the stakings.

But the stakes have to be somewhere. Unlike a witch, a human can't just conjure the things out of thin air, which means somebody has them on hand. I suppose they could hand them out to different people to use, of course, but only one person seems likely to have factored in actually using the stakes for something.

Given what we're told about the stakes' origin (manufactured in America somewhere near New York and given to Kinzo), the most likely culprit for the staker is someone who is close to Kinzo and who lives on Rokkenjima or frequently visits. This once again points the finger at Nanjo, but it could also just as easily perhaps finger Shannon, Kumasawa, Jessica, or (probably not but...) someone unexpected. The stakes seem to have been Kinzo's personal property though, which means they were probably already present on the island (as opposed to someone bringing them to the island from elsewhere).

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Ssol

If Jessica is Beatrice then here's the series of events for episode 4:

1) Jessica calls up Battler saying that when he finds her she will be dead with her head split open.
2) Jessica calls Battler again pretending to be Beatrice and challenges him.
3) They meet at the mansion balcony and Battler can't remember the sin.
4) Jessica kills herself because he didn't remember the sin.
5) Battler finds Jessica dead just as she said she would be.

So what was the purpose of the first call? She had a feeling that he wouldn't remember the sin so she was prepared to kill herself?

That part was definitely suspicious, and it really hit the second time I read through EP 4. I mean the only blonde female on the island makes it seem like she's dead or dying and then a mysterious blonde female Battler can't recognize in the rain shows up on the balcony...hmm.

However, I still can't believe that Jessica is Beatrice for both gut reasons and for one specific event-related reason. The gut reason is that the whole appearance thing kind of stinks of red herring .

The event-related reason (and I know it has a few holes, but it really stuck out when I last reread through this part) is that in EP 1, when Maria talked to Beatrice as the other 3 were killed in the parlor, Jessica was locked in the study being emo. If we assume that the Beatrice Maria sees is always the same person, and is also the mastermind (I'll disclaim a bit - that's a big assumption), it's pretty safe to say that Jessica cannot be Beatrice. Of course you could also say under those pretenses that Jessica gave her the orders beforehand and somebody else carried out the murders, but I think that's stretching things a bit.

This also makes the possibility of Shannon-Beatrice pretty interesting, as I think the red text over the first twilight (The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed!) is a little fishy. After all, couldn't Shannon be considered an "identified corpse" because half her face was left exposed? It's also interesting because after Shannon dies in EP 2, the only deaths are the "explosion" deaths at midnight (I still think that the cause of those deaths really is small bombs ), and in EP 3 you can say that Eva carried out the rest of the murders (still want to know how/why Jessica asploded and not Eva). EP 4 I guess needs a lot more confirmation because all we can really say about it is that Kanon was the 9th to die . And, erm, I don't know what to say about the knock in this episode either, although the possibility of fake corpses being brought up is definitely an important thing.

There's also a gut feeling for this theory - GeorgexShannon is a lot more full of holes than JessicaxKanon and it'd be nice to see a dark twist on it.

I guess there's nothing really new here, and it's full of holes, but that's my current line of thought.

[Kitsu]

This also makes the possibility of Shannon-Beatrice pretty interesting, as I think the red text over the first twilight (The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed!) is a little fishy. After all, couldn't Shannon be considered an "identified corpse" because half her face was left exposed?

Of course, she was identified like actually every corpse, weren't they?

There's also a gut feeling for this theory - GeorgexShannon is a lot more full of holes than JessicaxKanon and it'd be nice to see a dark twist on it.

I wouldn't like a dark twist..for me those two were kinda...nice..they were kinda happy in all this "I'll never love you back" "Waah *cry*" or "I want the inheritage!!" "ME TOO!"

[ameskitty]

Yeah, but in the context of that red text Battler was arguing that because some of the corpses didn't have faces they were only identifiable by their clothing, so they could've easily been fakes. So in that sense they were "unidentified" while the ones with half faces weren't. (that red text could go so many ways though that I think it's almost entirely useless...that's kind of why I think there has to be a reason that she didn't go through and say "X is dead. Y is dead...")

And bleh, maybe I'm just biased against that pairing because I think the whole 23/16 thing is slightly creepy . Even before I remembered that fact I was slightly attached to them, but the whole PURE LOVE thing didn't seem to have enough basis behind it.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Yeah, but in the context of that red text Battler was arguing that because some of the corpses didn't have faces they were only identifiable by their clothing, so they could've easily been fakes. So in that sense they were "unidentified" while the ones with half faces weren't. (that red text could go so many ways though that I think it's almost entirely useless...that's kind of why I think there has to be a reason that she didn't go through and say "X is dead. Y is dead...")

And bleh, maybe I'm just biased against that pairing because I think the whole 23/16 thing is slightly creepy . Even before I remembered that fact I was slightly attached to them, but the whole PURE LOVE thing didn't seem to have enough basis behind it.

I thought Shannon was about 18?

Or am I remembering wrong about her being a couple years older than Kanon, who's a year younger than Jessica, who I'm guessing is 17, making Kanon 16.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

I thought Shannon was about 18?

Or am I remembering wrong about her being a couple years older than Kanon, who's a year younger than Jessica, who I'm guessing is 17, making Kanon 16.

Jessica is 18.
Kanon is 16.
Shannon is 16.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Jessica is 18.
Kanon is 16.
Shannon is 16.

Eh, I guess so.

Also, about the stakes...

Spoiler:

I think they're representative of the ones permitted to wear the one-winged eagle who aren't servants. Their personalities help enough...

Lucifer=Krauss(Oldest, and yet the least skilled and most bullied?)

Leviathan=Eva(Actually a bit of a crybaby, but still plenty nasty)

Satan=Rudolf(He's been said to have a temper, right?)

Belphegor=Rosa(She waits too long to take a stand, as her vs Goldsmith showed.)

I'm thinking I should take either George or Battler out for the last few. I'm thinking George, because of the way Eva registered her marriage. Then again, that would help him as..
Mammon=George(Because of what Eva did) or, more obviously, Battler(He could choose to just believe in the witch or not, but he's "Greedy" and wants the whole truth. Plus, she's apparently the most "Wholesome" of the sisters, and besides his lecherous tendencies, that could apply to him. Then again, there's George for that too.) because she gets along with Ange the most out of all the sisters.

Beelzebub=Jessica(Big eater... I guess? She's a bit of a problem pinpointing why.)

Asmodeus=Maria("Lust" could refer to her elegant gothic lolita outfit(Someone get Rosa a time machine! She invented a fashion 20 years before its time!), but of course, her being "The youngest and left out of important affairs" is similar to Maria.)

Any thoughts?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Eh, I guess so.

Also, about the stakes...

Spoiler:

I think they're representative of the ones permitted to wear the one-winged eagle who aren't servants. Their personalities help enough...

Lucifer=Krauss(Oldest, and yet the least skilled and most bullied?)

Leviathan=Eva(Actually a bit of a crybaby, but still plenty nasty)

Satan=Rudolf(He's been said to have a temper, right?)

Belphegor=Rosa(She waits too long to take a stand, as her vs Goldsmith showed.)

I'm thinking I should take either George or Battler out for the last few. I'm thinking George, because of the way Eva registered her marriage. Then again, that would help him as..
Mammon=George(Because of what Eva did) or, more obviously, Battler(He could choose to just believe in the witch or not, but he's "Greedy" and wants the whole truth. Plus, she's apparently the most "Wholesome" of the sisters, and besides his lecherous tendencies, that could apply to him. Then again, there's George for that too.) because she gets along with Ange the most out of all the sisters.

Beelzebub=Jessica(Big eater... I guess? She's a bit of a problem pinpointing why.)

Asmodeus=Maria("Lust" could refer to her elegant gothic lolita outfit(Someone get Rosa a time machine! She invented a fashion 20 years before its time!), but of course, her being "The youngest and left out of important affairs" is similar to Maria.)

Any thoughts?

That comparison has been made a lot, however the most popular one is that the 7 stakes represent the 7 parents.

Most common comparison I see:
Leviathan - Kyrie (see EP 3)
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi (she always stabs him, unless he dies beforehand, in which case she stabs Gohda)
Belphegor - Rudolf (Lust is also another variation, but if we take the EP 3 battles as them fighting their corresponding sin, then Belphegor should be paralleled to Rudolf and I think Lust would be better suited to Rosa, considering EP 4)
Asmodeus - Rosa (sleeps around with men)
Lucifer - Natsuhi (tons of pride in the Ushiromya name)
Satan - Eva (has a lot of anger towards the family, specifically Krauss)
Mammon - Krauss (greedy for money)

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

The only two feasible candidates I can see for skirt-Beatrice are Jessica and Shannon, leaning heavily toward Shannon. Of course nothing says it can't be both of them (Shannon in ep1/2, Jessica in ep4, both at once, or whatever).

Kumasawa is a possible staker/note person/magic circle drawing person. If she was indeed the "predecessor Beatrice" to the human Beatrice (the fact that she's associated with Virgilia is kind of a heavy-handed hint), it's possible she passed that information to the current "Beatrice" (Shannon or Jessica) who passed it to Maria. That would leave at least three people capable of making the circles or doing the stakings.

But the stakes have to be somewhere. Unlike a witch, a human can't just conjure the things out of thin air, which means somebody has them on hand. I suppose they could hand them out to different people to use, of course, but only one person seems likely to have factored in actually using the stakes for something.

Given what we're told about the stakes' origin (manufactured in America somewhere near New York and given to Kinzo), the most likely culprit for the staker is someone who is close to Kinzo and who lives on Rokkenjima or frequently visits. This once again points the finger at Nanjo, but it could also just as easily perhaps finger Shannon, Kumasawa, Jessica, or (probably not but...) someone unexpected. The stakes seem to have been Kinzo's personal property though, which means they were probably already present on the island (as opposed to someone bringing them to the island from elsewhere).

I agree with Renall that Beatrice could be the different for every episode. Here is my theory of a list of people who could have used the Beatrice disguise (Not necessarily the culprit or mastermind):

Episode 1
Who? Shannon

How? She was never dead at the beginning. While it's true that "The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed", if she's lying there in the shed and is not dead then she's not a corpse.

Why? To give Maria an umbrella and note. Also, later in the episode she told Maria to turn around and sing a song. She needed to create the illusion because the culprit threatened George would be killed if she didn't.

Knox 10th rule? This is tough to get around. Mabye the hint was that she said she believed Beatrice existed.

Episode 2
Who? Rosa

How? It would be easy to either trick Maria or tell her to lie during the umbrella scene. She also used the disguise again during the banquet scene with Battler. Luckily Battler was a little drunk or he would have identified Rosa.

Why? Rosa found the gold and wanted to keep it for herself (This is not a stretch since it's shown that she does solve the epitah in episode 3). She figured that she would need to kill all her siblings to avoid arguments about sharing the gold. She just needed to lure them out into the chapel by creating the illusion that they would be meeting Beatrice there. Regarding the end scene with Battler she put on the Beatrice disguise again because she went crazy after killing everyone.

Knox's 10th rule? Maria told her mom to beat the bad witch in her.

Episode 3
Who? Eva

How? Since the disguise was only used to trick Maria during the umbrella scene it wouldn't be hard.

Why? The note given to Maria gives Eva a chance to become the new head. Also, Eva suspected the servants were hiding the truth about Kinzo. She needed them out of the way. She pretended to be Beatrice to lure them out one at a time and kill them.

Knox's 10th rule? This is hard but the hint could be that Eva accepted young Eva's challenge to do anything it takes to become the head of the family.

Episode 4
Who? As I posted earlier, I guess Jessica is possible but I don't understand why. I also think that violates Knox's 10th rule.

Episode 5
No one disguised as Beatrice. Instead of Maria meeting Beatrice with the umbrella she meets Erika.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Episode 3
Who? Eva

How? Since the disguise was only used to trick Maria during the umbrella scene it wouldn't be hard.

Why? The note given to Maria gives Eva a chance to become the new head. Also, Eva suspected the servants were hiding the truth about Kinzo. She needed them out of the way. She pretended to be Beatrice to lure them out one at a time and kill them.

Knox's 10th rule? This is hard but the hint could be that Eva accepted young Eva's challenge to do anything it takes to become the head of the family.

During that scene we saw Eva not a Beatrice. Rosa even recognized her as Eva and then she changed into Evatrice. And Maria even recognized that Eva wasn't Beatrice, after realizing it was Evatrice.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

During that scene we saw Eva not a Beatrice. Rosa even recognized her as Eva and then she changed into Evatrice. And Maria even recognized that Eva wasn't Beatrice, after realizing it was Evatrice.

You're thinking of the wrong scene. Rosa wasn't there when "Beatrice" handed Maria the umbrella. The scene where the disguise was used was before the first twilight to give Maria the letter.

[Tjfarmer]

I actually like the idea of Mammon = Eva, because... in ep 3/4 Eva was the only person left alive, Mammon was the only stake found (was something like this, right?).... among some other reasons, my friend once said while we were discussing this that the Mammon and Ange friendship could've been Ange and Eva if Bernkastel wasn't a bitch (see Witches Tanabata).

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

I actually like the idea of Mammon = Eva, because... in ep 3/4 Eva was the only person left alive, Mammon was the only stake found (was something like this, right?).... among some other reasons, my friend once said while we were discussing this that the Mammon and Ange friendship could've been Ange and Eva if Bernkastel wasn't a bitch (see Witches Tanabata).

But Kyrie was staked by Mammon :u Actually that gives more reason that Kyrie survived being killed and then murdered Nanjo, dying off herself later on before Evatrice's red text web.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

But Kyrie was staked by Mammon :u Actually that gives more reason that Kyrie survived being killed and then murdered Nanjo, dying off herself later on before Evatrice's red text web.

Kyrie was staked by Mammon but that was after Eva-Beatrice took over so the whole system got screwed up. I think you have to put mammon as Eva because of all the greed she shows. Then Krauss is Belphegor, Rosa is Satan, and Rudolf is Asmodeus.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Kyrie was staked by Mammon but that was after Eva-Beatrice took over so the whole system got screwed up. I think you have to put mammon as Eva because of all the greed she shows. Then Krauss is Belphegor, Rosa is Satan, and Rudolf is Asmodeus.

You're only considering EP 3 though. Plus why wouldn't Belphegor be corresponding to Rudolf? You can take that entire gun duel as the two of them fighting their respected sins - it can't just be random selection that Kyrie just happened to fight against her own sin of envy.

And Beatrice even said that Rosa was lustful in EP 4 when MARIA was killing the latter, with how she slept around with men and ignored her daughter.

[luckyssol]

I want to put Belphegor as Krauss because instead of carefully handling Kinzo's wealth he was obviously lazy about it.

Rudolf should be asmodeus because of his described behavior.

In the end I think both theories are equally possible.