Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I actually think Orb could take EA in Destiny. In Seed they had a few Astrays with rookies at the command and a few ships. But in Destiny they have a large force of veteran Astray and Murasame pilots.

How could they have "a large force of veteran Astray and Murasame pilots" when Orb has only been in 3 mobile suit battles, and the third one only for those who can be fitted inside the Kusanagi?

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

I lump this together because they fall in the same category: THIS ISN'T LAST YEAR'S EA.

Again, just the AF alone (not the EA) defeated Orb with a single fleet just two years ago, so the state of the EA is irrelevant.

Also, on the one hand, you have the Seirans who favored the EA and, on the other hand, you have Cagalli who favored neutrality. Thus, neither side would be asking for ZAFT's aid, just like in SEED.

Actually, a RETURNING head of state is a pretty rare thing. It is an odd, and unique enough situation to be used as an excuse.

It doesn't matter. Cagalli was there when the treaty was started and they had a set a date to finalize. Thus, she has allowed it to happen.

They'll take a hit in diplomatic relations, no doubt, but how badly will that affect them? They're a largely isolationist island nation whose closest ally is a personal friend of the returning leader and agrees with her decision. So ZAFT will think less of them? Ohnoes!

And how important IS that anyways, to a nation who has recently argued that ideology and politics are less important than saving lives? Isn't that why they joined the Alliance in the first place? To save lives at all costs?

I don't think it would matter either, but I definitely think that Cagalli showing up would not do any good if Orb were to care about the matter. It's certainly not an excuse because of what I already said above.

But it WASN'T there when the decision was made.

Don't get too hang up on the Destroy thing. Regardless, Orb knew the EA was powerful.

The argument isn't "how did they convince the council." It is "Was the choice to ignore Cagalli a life SAVING decision?"

Of course, because Orb knew from experience that the AF would attack a neutral country if it suits their need.

Given the information they had at the time? It WASN'T. It would have been safer for Orb to just walk away from that alliance.

Not really, that would just make an enemy of the EA, and as I said above, the other side wanted neutrality, which means no help from ZAFT.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Actually, non military alliances happen all the time. It's implied to Cagalli that this is what they are working on, and again by the fact that Orb doesn't IMMEDIATELY join the war effort.

Actually, they decided after the war has happened. It was quite clear that military aid would be part of the nature of the Alliance when Orb made the decision to join, with Cagalli present in the country at the time.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by monster

How could they have "a large force of veteran Astray and Murasame pilots" when Orb has only been in 3 mobile suit battles, and the third one only for those who can be fitted inside the Kusanagi?

Because they've all had 2 years of training. I mean compare the force sent to attack the Minerva to the defense force of Orb in Seed. It's much bigger, and the pilots are much more skilled. Compare Baba and the 3 Murasame pilots who take out Sting to the 3 Astray girls.

Perhaps Veteran was the wrong choice or words, but what I meant was in Seed they'd had only the first small batch of Astray's they'd built used by a bunch of rookie's who only just gotten their MS's working properly only a short while before, and couldn't have had more than a few weeks training time at best.

In Seed Destiny they've got a huge force of Astray's and Murasame's all piloted by people that have had 2 years of proper training in them.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by monster

How could they have "a large force of veteran Astray and Murasame pilots" when Orb has only been in 3 mobile suit battles, and the third one only for those who can be fitted inside the Kusanagi?

Practicing probably. Same way an isolationist, pacifist nation has one of the strongest armies on the planet.

This isn't that unlikely. Brazil's army (especially air force) for an example has been rated relatively high in military strength and they've NEVER fought a war. Not even for independence.

Originally Posted by monster

Again, just the AF alone (not the EA) defeated Orb with a single fleet just two years ago, so the state of the EA is irrelevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoY_sfskuU#05m09s

Just the AF? That looks like a meeting of all the EA leaders... Azrael lead the negotiations, but I'm not sure where you get the idea this was a small portion of their current power. They even call them "The Alliance Forces."

The AF sent the ultimatum, but the EA is what enforced it.

Originally Posted by monster

Also, on the one hand, you have the Seirans who favored the EA and, on the other hand, you have Cagalli who favored neutrality. Thus, neither side would be asking for ZAFT's aid, just like in SEED.

Probably not. But the argument being used here is "Ignoring Cagalli was done to save lives."

I call bullshit. Avoiding the Alliance and accepting ZAFT aid against them should they retaliate would have been a LOT safer for Orb, knowing what they knew then.

The decision to ignore Cagalli was NOT made to save lives. Yuna has ties to Djibril, wants to be a part of the EA and doesn't want to look stupid. Saving lives had dick all to do with that decision.

Originally Posted by monster

It doesn't matter. Cagalli was there when the treaty was started and they had a set a date to finalize. Thus, she has allowed it to happen.

Morally? Yes. Politically? Makes ALL the difference.

Originally Posted by monster

I don't think it would matter either, but I definitely think that Cagalli showing up would not do any good if Orb were to care about the matter.

Politics is funny. I watch a lot of it, and this sort of thing could be smoothed over with relative ease thanks to Cagalli.

Originally Posted by monster

Don't get too hang up on the Destroy thing. Regardless, Orb knew the EA was powerful.

At the time? They were weak, spread thing, and unable to keep their alliance together.

Originally Posted by monster

Of course, because Orb knew from experience that the AF would attack a neutral country if it suits their need.

Willing? Yes. Able? They're losing the war AND their alliance without having to fight Orb too.

Originally Posted by monster

Not really, that would just make an enemy of the EA, and as I said above, the other side wanted neutrality, which means no help from ZAFT.

Yuna's decision was OBVIOUSLY not predicated on what Cagalli WANTED. All things considered, going against her and accepting aid from ZAFT was safer than going against her and joining the EA.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Because they've all had 2 years of training. I mean compare the force sent to attack the Minerva to the defense force of Orb in Seed. It's much bigger, and the pilots are much more skilled. Compare Baba and the 3 Murasame pilots who take out Sting to the 3 Astray girls.

Perhaps Veteran was the wrong choice or words, but what I meant was in Seed they'd had only the first small batch of Astray's they'd built used by a bunch of rookie's who only just gotten their MS's working properly only a short while before, and couldn't have had more than a few weeks training time at best.

In Seed Destiny they've got a huge force of Astray's and Murasame's all piloted by people that have had 2 years of proper training in them.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Practicing probably. Same way an isolationist, pacifist nation has one of the strongest armies on the planet.

This isn't that unlikely. Brazil's army (especially air force) for an example has been rated relatively high in military strength and they've NEVER fought a war. Not even for independence.

You know, in SEED, the AF only started mass production mobile suit that same year as well. So it's not like the Orb pilots were much less experienced than the AF pilots.

Also, if Orb pilots had 2 more years of training, then so did the AF pilots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoY_sfskuU#05m09s

Just the AF? That looks like a meeting of all the EA leaders... Azrael lead the negotiations, but I'm not sure where you get the idea this was a small portion of their current power. They even call them "The Alliance Forces."

The AF sent the ultimatum, but the EA is what enforced it.

The EA leaders sent Azrael and the AF's 4th Naval Fleet to Orb.

Probably not. But the argument being used here is "Ignoring Cagalli was done to save lives."

I call bullshit. Avoiding the Alliance and accepting ZAFT aid against them should they retaliate would have been a LOT safer for Orb, knowing what they knew then.

The decision to ignore Cagalli was NOT made to save lives. Yuna has ties to Djibril, wants to be a part of the EA and doesn't want to look stupid. Saving lives had dick all to do with that decision.

Accepting ZAFT's aid would've been the safe alternative had they chosen to reject the EA's proposal. But saving lives was not the only concern. Cagalli wanted to save lives while still holding on to Orb's ideal while the Seirans wanted to save lives by not making an enemy of the EA.

They both wanted to save lives, but not at the cost of accepting ZAFT's aid.

Morally? Yes. Politically? Makes ALL the difference.

Politically? It doesn't matter, because as Neo said, the EA would just consider Orb as enemy and attacked Orb, no matter what their excuse.

Politics is funny. I watch a lot of it, and this sort of thing could be smoothed over with relative ease thanks to Cagalli.

A leader tends to have that kind of an effect.

At the time? They were weak, spread thing, and unable to keep their alliance together.



Willing? Yes. Able? They're losing the war AND their alliance without having to fight Orb too.

There is a difference between not being able to get an easy victory against ZAFT and not being able to attack Orb.

Yuna's decision was OBVIOUSLY not predicated on what Cagalli WANTED. All things considered, going against her and accepting aid from ZAFT was safer than going against her and joining the EA.

Maybe, but unfortunately, the people who would choose that third option of siding with ZAFT were either non-existent or had too few power in the government.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by monster

.
Also, if Orb pilots had 2 more years of training, then so did the AF pilots.

And yet the AF pilots were universally shown to be terrible and dropped like flies in Destiny, while Orb had quite a few grunt pilots shown to be unusually good.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

And yet the AF pilots were universally shown to be terrible and dropped like flies in Destiny, while Orb had quite a few grunt pilots shown to be unusually good.

A few unusually good pilots only means something to the audience. Also, that the EA pilots dropped like flies to the likes of Shinn in the Impulse/Destiny does not mean that they will drop like flies to the likes of their Orb counterparts.

[Aquaman OS]

They will to Kira though. And unlike in Seed, EA has nothing capable of countering him this time. The Extended Trio (assuming they really wanted to waste a key asset like them in a petty grudge against Orb) were no match for him in 23 or 28.

So with a much stronger Orb force, backed by Freedom, EA will have a hell of a time getting through them, especially in a battle that's utterly unimportant so sending more resources is just wasting them.

I mean yes Orb and even Kira might fold if EA starts sending everything they've got after Orb, but why would they do that when they've got the Minerva wrecking their stuff on the other side of the world, and other skirmishes with Zaft elsewhere? For Orb's Mass Driver? They don't need it now. Just to prove a point for defying them? Awful big waste of resources just to prove a point.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by monster

Accepting ZAFT's aid would've been the safe alternative had they chosen to reject the EA's proposal. But saving lives was not the only concern.

That is, literally, all I'm saying.

Yes, they had reason not to accept Cagalli. It was NOT about saving lives.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I mean yes Orb and even Kira might fold if EA starts sending everything they've got after Orb, but why would they do that when they've got the Minerva wrecking their stuff on the other side of the world, and other skirmishes with Zaft elsewhere? For Orb's Mass Driver? They don't need it now. Just to prove a point for defying them? Awful big waste of resources just to prove a point.

Not just the Minerva, their own internal issues. Their alliance is breaking up, and armed rebellions are popping up everywhere.

They don't have the resources to deal with the problems they have NOW. Starting another war out of spite would be stupid. Even if they won.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

They will to Kira though. And unlike in Seed, EA has nothing capable of countering him this time. The Extended Trio (assuming they really wanted to waste a key asset like them in a petty grudge against Orb) were no match for him in 23 or 28.

So with a much stronger Orb force, backed by Freedom, EA will have a hell of a time getting through them, especially in a battle that's utterly unimportant so sending more resources is just wasting them.

I mean yes Orb and even Kira might fold if EA starts sending everything they've got after Orb, but why would they do that when they've got the Minerva wrecking their stuff on the other side of the world, and other skirmishes with Zaft elsewhere? For Orb's Mass Driver? They don't need it now. Just to prove a point for defying them? Awful big waste of resources just to prove a point.

First of all, nobody was counting on Kira to be in action again. Second of all, there's no guarantee that Kira would not meet his match amongst the EA pilots. In fact, he did meet his match in SEED, and it could happen again.

All in all, resting your hope on a single pilot would be a foolish thing to do for Orb.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by monster

First of all, nobody was counting on Kira to be in action again.

Why not?

Think about it. You may not be counting on it, but you have information THEY don't. Let's look at what Yuna knows:

A year ago, Freedom appears and almost immediately helps Orb through every single battle they fight.

Now, in this battle, it shows up protecting Cagalli. Why wouldn't he think it would continue to protect Cagalli at every step?

He may have been wrong, but why WOULDN'T he make that assumption?

[blitz1/2]

Can't wait for Freedom to appear again lol (That and Meteor)

[Deadpool2000]

I do like Meteor quite a bit more than Vestige...

[Washu-Chan]

Tomorrow's episode of Seed Destiny in a nutshell:

Spoiler for Phase 23 sneak preview:

[S.Freedom]

Yeah that about sums up the coming battle.

On a slightly different note. I've been wondering for awhile what the difference between a "combat" coordinator like Sven Soucious is and a "normal" coordinator like Luna, Dearka, or Yzak. Aside from being conditioned to be loyal to the EA/AF that is.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Why not?

Think about it. You may not be counting on it, but you have information THEY don't. Let's look at what Yuna knows:

A year ago, Freedom appears and almost immediately helps Orb through every single battle they fight.

Now, in this battle, it shows up protecting Cagalli. Why wouldn't he think it would continue to protect Cagalli at every step?

He may have been wrong, but why WOULDN'T he make that assumption?

I was under the impression Aquaman OS was talking about a situation where Orb decided not to join the EA in the first place. Kira was traumatized from the previous war and not doing anything. Apparently, he didn't even resume his pre-SEED life of being an engineering student. So why would they count on him? Even Cagalli couldn't possibly think to send Kira back to war, even if she would have Orb fight.

Not to mention, having Kira with them still doesn't guarantee anything considering Orb still lost the last time with the Freedom and the Justice fighting with them.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by monster

Not to mention, having Kira with them still doesn't guarantee anything considering Orb still lost the last time with the Freedom and the Justice fighting with them.

You have to remember that Kira and Athrun where preoccupied by the Raider, Calamity, and Forbidden. Thus preventing them from stomping AF grunts like nobodies business.

This time around Kira would be facing Stella, Sting, and Auel. As shown he'd have no problem removing them from the field of battle than stomping on EA/AF grunts. The only EA pilot shown to give Kira anything close to a challenge was Neo/Mu. And even that ended with Kira's blowing Neo's windam to pieces.

[monster]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

You have to remember that Kira and Athrun where preoccupied by the Raider, Calamity, and Forbidden. Thus preventing them from stomping AF grunts like nobodies business.

This time around Kira would be facing Stella, Sting, and Auel. As shown he'd have no problem removing them from the field of battle than stomping on EA/AF grunts. The only EA pilot shown to give Kira anything close to a challenge was Neo/Mu. And even that ended with Kira's blowing Neo's windam to pieces.

Except Orb doesn't have the luxury to make that distinction. The Raider, Calamity, and Forbidden are still part of the AF. And if the Freedom and the Justice could be preoccupied by a portion of the AF, the Freedom alone could be preoccupied again, even if it's not by Stella, Sting, and Auel.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Yeah that about sums up the coming battle.

On a slightly different note. I've been wondering for awhile what the difference between a "combat" coordinator like Sven Soucious is and a "normal" coordinator like Luna, Dearka, or Yzak. Aside from being conditioned to be loyal to the EA/AF that is.

They can't harm naturals and they seemed to be cloned for mass production.

[S.Freedom]

@CBredbeard So they aren't inherently better at combat then any other coordinator? Well that's a bit cheap, I was kinda hoping they'd have some kind of advantage over "normal" coordinators. You know like even better reflex's/reaction time or something similar.

@Monster Only Kira was shown easily handling Stella, Sting, and Auel. So unless the EA/AF sacrificed a sizeable portion of their forces to keeping him preoccupied they'd loss. Even if they won it would be a pyhric one considering the overall loses they'd suffer from such an attack.