2010-12-08, 00:39 | Link #901 | |
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having isshin turn out to be of noble shinigami blood would make more sense. the kuchiki, shiba and shihouin are all powerful, far more powerful than normal citizens of soul society. if isshin was one of them then ichigo's super reiatsu would be explained. of course he would know urahara and yoruichi. if he was one of the most powerful shinigami in soul society he would definitely know them. besides, how many shinigami do you know hide on earth? not that many. isshin even knows about the vizards. they can detect each other's reiatsu, of course they would eventually cross paths. the world is not big enough for powerful beings like that. i don't really agree with that concept. just because isshin went through it, ichigo would as well. remember that this is the guy who only trained for 10 days, gained bankai in 3 days and learned to hone his hollow powers for just a month. so if isshin regained his shinigami powers after 16 years, ichigo would probably regain his in much lesser time. you have quite an imagination there dude. it's good that you're trying to speculate on the possibilities but sometimes it can get too extreme and even farfetched. no offense meant. |
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2010-12-08, 07:34 | Link #902 | |
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Oh and remember movie 3
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2010-12-08, 08:10 | Link #903 |
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the movies have practically nothing to do with the series itself, same thing with the fillers. there are some things that they have taken from the manga but they're pretty much not connected to the main storyline.
when i first saw isshin? i thought he must have been one of the strongest shinigami in soul society who somehow gave up his position and lived among humans. remember that yoruichi, tessai and urahara did the same. they simply used gigai to blend in. urahara is a genius so he might have invented a gigai that can age or even replaced his every few years to make it look that he had aged. he can do the same for his clients and he obviously knows isshin. i won't be surprised if isshin had been his client since he came to settle on earth. ryuken and isshin might have had an encounter years ago. karakura town is far too small for them not to meet and know about each other. they're not exactly friends, merely acquaintances. substitute shinigami was a title especially given to ichigo because they didn't know what else to call him. he's human, he's not dead and yet he's a shinigami. he's practically an anomaly. he's neither a part of soul society nor has he formally pledged his allegiance to them. he's not part of the gotei 13. and do you remember the afro shinigami who replaced rukia as the resident shinigami of karakura town? he didn't even know ichigo. when ichigo showed him his substitute shinigami badge he laughed it off saying he hasn't heard of such a thing. here's a link to bleach wiki where they're talking about the term substitute shinigami. check it out. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:I...tute_Shinigami |
2010-12-08, 09:02 | Link #904 | |
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2010-12-08, 18:09 | Link #905 | |
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Ichigo: I am substitute shinigami Kurosaki Ichigo Renji: Substitute eh well yets see what you got. Something like that although judging by how Renji said it he likely thought Ichigo was joking. So many questions can stir up from Ryuken. Any way Isshin was most likley kicked out of soul society. I like that I idea better. I mean Isshin most likely went to the human world and met Ryuken and Masaki. Of course marrying Masaki was bad on it's on. He was in love though (This is similar to to my belief on Toshiro too) He was kicked out for marrying not a shinigami, but a human and had too leave. Spoiler for Manga option 2:
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2010-12-08, 21:37 | Link #906 |
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hmmm...i think you're reading too much into their words and actions, even from the movies that don't really mean much to the series. the movies are meant for the entertainment of the fans, it's not meant to be taken as part of the series itself. they're not written by kubo.
of course i knew he's a shinigami! he looked the part, acted the part and had the powers for the part. not to mention that he took out grand fisher with just one swing and he didn't even release his sword yet. so yeah, i'd say he's some powerful shinigami. ah, for now that's just fairy tale. we don't really know for sure who masaki was or if she was really the reason why isshin "fell" to earth. if she was then i could point out some inconsistencies. if she was the reason, then isshin would have left soul society fairly recently, maybe just 18 years or so. she's human and mortal. even if she was someone who had strong reiatsu she still would have been mortal. but then that would make isshin a contemporary of rukia and renji who became shinigami recently compared to the likes of byakuya. if isshin had been part of soul society during that time then renji would have recognized him or someone from his generation or even byakuya's generation like gin. but they don't. when he appeared to fight against aizen, the ones who recognized him were the older shinigami. gin didn't know him, but aizen did. aizen had been a shinigami for more than 100 years just like urahara, yoruichi and shinji. so no, i don't think masaki was the reason. i think he hid on earth just like urahara and the others did. perhaps he even came to earth before they did. it had probably something to do with him losing his powers. when a shinigami loses his powers he might as well be a mortal. then meeting masaki gave him a reason to stay mortal and powerless. he married her, had children and was happy. until she died and their son started gaining shinigami powers. the substitute shinigami thing is just a title. it's not a species or group of shinigami like the vizards. there is only one substitute shinigami and it's ichigo. remember that he got that title because when he first gained shinigami powers he borrowed rukia's powers. he stabbed himself with her sword and she transferred her powers to him so he could fight the hollow who was about to kill his family. if i'm not mistaken rukia said something about it being temporary, just until she could regain her strength. so she forced him to do her shinigami duties. so he was rukia's substitute. he even had an awkward-looking zanpakutou, very different from his later zanpakutou, that's because he had some of rukia's powers in him at that time. but when byakuya stripped him of rukia's powers and he gained his own, his sword took another the shape, the true shape of zangetsu. but the title stuck to him since he couldn't really be considered a shinigami. he doesn't live in soul society, he's not dead, he has a mortal body and he's not part of gotei 13. if he was then he probably would have been made a captain or a vice-captain at the very least. but he's not. do you understand? |
2010-12-08, 22:37 | Link #907 | ||
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Spoiler for Manga:
that simple he then Quote:
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2011-02-23, 16:16 | Link #909 |
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Dont know whats been said apart from the last few pages but heres what i think about Isshin :
He must have been a captain (he wears the robe) after the time Vizards were, so between now and 100 years ago. This is because they say he left SS after his wife died (which was about 5 of 6 years ago) but he wasnt seen in the flash back episodes of Urahara and Vizards. Doing some reaserch i know who was the captains around 100 years ago and who took over from them. Like Yuroichi -> Soi Fon Byakuya's Grandfather -> Byakuya so on... easy to research. The only mystery me and my friend have come across is the 10th Divisions previous captain.. All we know is Unohana saying he was 'Killed in Action'. RIIGHT? catching on? Shinigami ways Hitsugaya is still young, 'Boy-Genius'. So with all this we have come to the conclusion that Isshin was the previous captian of the 10th division. PS. sorry if im repeating anything already said Edit: There is no record of a 10th captain before Hitsugaya! Last edited by Abhorsen; 2011-02-23 at 16:34. |
2011-02-23, 16:51 | Link #910 | |
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2011-02-25, 01:55 | Link #911 |
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My own theory is what if Isshin was part of the Soul Society but from a long time ago, that left or was lost/trapped some how and when he escaped a lot of time had passed and he decided to make a life for himself in the living world rather that return to the Soul Society. Maybe he helped Urahara get settled into the real world.
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2011-03-01, 23:30 | Link #912 |
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Maybe Isshin was a substitute before he became a shinigami there were substitutes before Ichigo right. he then later died and beacme a shinigami this would make Ichigo and Isshin more alike.
Now onwards to this connection to Ginjou Kuggo. Ginjou was likely a soul reaper to since he has a bagde Ginjou knows urahara just like Isshin does also. It is likey that Issshin got his powers back from fullbringers. It could have been if not Ginjou another fullbringer like Ginjou's dad.
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2011-07-30, 13:54 | Link #913 |
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Just throwing my hat into the ring..
I know this thread hasn't been very active in a while but I figured hey what the heck? Maybe someone might catch sight of my response to it and continue the discussion because hey, let's face it, Isshin Kurosaki is one tricky little bugger and is extraordinarily fun to discuss. I don't exactly have a theory of my own but more like questions I am going to pose that me and my younger sister have discussed as well as responses to theories that I have read about myself. Let's see how this goes, eh? Forewarned, I tried to keep this as relatively spoiler free for those who haven't read the manga or watched the subs to almost current, but a few unmarked ones may or may not have slipped through unintentionally. I'll do my best to come back and mark these up in days ahead.
First of all, one of the first things that comes into our minds first appears in episode 112 of the anime and we know it's in the manga but we're not sure what chapter right off the top of our heads, Isshin makes a comment to Urahara basically saying that civility isn't in Urahara's nature (Don't have the exact scripting in front of me and my internet refuses to play any videos right now or load any of the manga sites for some reason). This makes us wonder what is the exact state of their relationship. It feels a little .... distant or maybe more professional in nature than like actual friendship. So if that's the case, who is the upper professional and who is the lower one? Second thing that we took notice of is for being without his powers or the use of his powers for 20 years, Isshin knows A LOT more than he probably should. Or more than just a mere lower shinigami would know. So the idea of him being a VC is definitely plausible (I mean look at Ikkaku - he's a VC but has a bankai so that puts him closer to Captaincy but he chooses to remain put), but personally I lean more towards him being a Captain if he was indeed part of the Gotei 13 at one point in time. He also knows a heck of a lot about Aizen's plans. Which really brings up the question of the timeline on his existence. Aizen's plans developed well before the TBTP arc, which is well over 100 years previous to the current time. Shinji in episode 111 (and I'm pretty sure the chapter in the manga that the episode stems from but I will have to double check this one when my computer is more cooperative) states that he recognizes the spiritual pressure as one belonging to a soul reaper but he doesn't recognize it so it's no one he personally knows of. That being the case this places Isshin in one of two spots: either right before Shinji and the other Vizards pop up in the Academy or the Gotei 13 or right after the TBTP incident but he vanishes right before Rukia comes into the story with the Kuchikis. I mean think about it for a second - if he was around when she was adopted, surely she would have met him or heard of him at some point thus would be able to eventually recognize him. But she hasn't yet. So in my head and my sister's head, this places Isshin in the timeline anywhere from 40-50 years ago or even further back than this. Makes sense to us but that's not saying a whole lot.... Anyways, the whole question here is just how on Earth does Isshin know as much as he does? He even knows about Ichigo's situation with the inner Hollow and the Vizards! He looks at Urahara and says it looks like they made contact with Ichigo just like Urahara had predicted. So where did THIS conversation have its basis in? When exactly have these two discussed this? This is something we hope KT clears up in the future. Something that crosses our minds here is at the end of this conversation is Urahara makes the comment when they sense Ichigo headed that way that if Ichigo finds his dad in this form it's going to cause trouble for Isshin. Aside from the reaction from Ichigo, what else could that be? Is Isshin hiding from something? Or does he want to stay incognito until the last possible moment? Scratching our heads once again... We noticed his reaction to when Ulqiuorra and Yammy appear and it's weird. Karin asks him if he sensed that in any way and he doesn't react. Does he not know how to react? Or does he merely not want to be given away? Just weird again. Spoiler for Bleach, episode 111, Issin enters the fray:
Okay, this note has to do with a filler episode but it does bring up a funny note. Spoiler for Bleach, Episode 304, Finally the back of the haori?:
Returning to the canonized storyline here - in the fight against Aizen himself, irregardless of whether it was kidou or mere air pressure manipulation from a massive physical force, Spoiler for Bleach, episode ???, Isshin giving Aizen the finger:
Staying in this fight, this brings up a point I referred to earlier. Spoiler for Bleach, episode ???, Isshin and GT:
Spoiler for Bleach, episode ???, Isshin waiting on Ichigo:
Aizen knows a lot about Ichigo. Too much. He's been way to invested and interested in Ichigo for this to not be signifcant. It's enough that Isshin feels the need to interrupt him. Why? Spoiler for Bleach, episode ???, Isshin training Ichigo:
The way Isshin wears his haori? This isn't significant at all to me. All the captains and VCs wear their uniforms differently. It's a personality aspect to me. Though, hiding his unit/squad/organization affliation does fit with Isshin's apparent deceptive inclinations. Looking like other characters, i.e. The Shibas? I'm dismissing this one big time. Here is why: Ichigo and Kaien/other Shibas look aike. This was meant as a plot device to help push Rukia into helping Ichigo save himself and his family in my head. And other characters say the same throughout the series. So Isshin and Ganju looking alike really isn't too far a stretch honestly. What gets me and this could be a coincidence just as much as anything else is how much Isshin and Shunsui look alike. I mean take a good look at them. It's eerie. In the current manga, there is something about to go down. Spoiler for Bleach, episode unknown, It's about to go down!:
That kind of glowing sword looking thing that Isshin is seen holding- I wonder, could that be Isshin's zanpaukto finally released? Just a thought and most likely an errant thought at that. I also hope we get to see Urahara's bankai. That's something else that has me curious but that's for another thread altogether. I've also been thinking about the noble family system. We know there are 4 MAJOR families and then there are lower ranking ones. We know for 3 names: Kuchiki, Shihouin and Shiba (refresh my memory - were they a MAJOR family or one of the lower ones before falling into ruin?). So this leaves 1-2 more major family names unknown. Could Isshin possibly belong to one of these unknown branches? The Shiba theory if presented right does have some sense plausibility but overall I am dismissing this one until something more solid is presented in the series. It just isn't enough to present that character look alikes in my opinion. So this in reality leaves just a few potential options left in my opinion: Royal Guard Royal Family/Court The Stealth/Punishment Forces (We never hear who was ahead of Yoriuchi. It's a stretch I know, I know, but it was an errant thought that popped into our heads.) Or...maybe even the Soul/Spirit King himself? Something that brings this up is the Spoiler for Bleach, episode ???, Aizen and Urahara's final talk:
I think at this point in time it is easy to see that whatever role Isshin has, it's important enough that KT has been keeping us just enough informed of his existence and his abilities to keep us thinking and guessing. But I think that is what makes Isshin so fun to discuss. He is perhaps the BIGGEST mystery in this series. And while discussion on his character doesn't provoke truly intellectual discussions, it does provoke alot of creativity provoking discussions. It's a fun exercise in creating our own stories etc on him and the series as a whole. Like I said, this wasn't a post about a particular theory of ours but more of questions and things we noticed about Isshin and things from other theories we agreed or disagreed with. Looking forward to responses! Last edited by DemonsStilletto; 2011-07-30 at 22:30. Reason: Trying to mark anything that might be spoiler-ish |
2011-07-31, 18:43 | Link #915 |
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Heh, thanks. I read a few pages but most of this does stem from the conversation me and my sister had one night. She asked me 'Hey sis...' and we started discussing the whole Isshin situation. So I guess we aren't that far off from the rest of the audience in many regards then. Good to know! Oh ya - I am a girl xD. Oh, how I <3 messing with people with usernames...LOL
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2011-07-31, 19:24 | Link #917 |
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Ahaha I see.
My biggest question about Isshin is how on Earth does he know so much and when on Earth has he been talking to Urahara. That would explain some of his character issues. To know what he knows and yet be on the sidelines, he most definitely is not a simple character and has a bigger role to play. If he isn't directly associated with the Gotei 13 then what is he? I mean if Ichigo is truly of true blood that means Isshin HAS to be a full blood or at least more than a half breed like Ichigo is.... So in that light I personally dismiss Isshin as a substitute soul reaper. It just doesn't fit if you look at genetics. C'mon KT, hurry up with the big reveals! |
2011-08-01, 23:02 | Link #918 | |
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2011-08-01, 23:16 | Link #919 | |
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Though I don't know where you're getting the sense that Isshin doesn't care for his powers from. The most we've seen is that he's careful using them (only using them when he had no worry of being revealed and, during the Aizen fight, only using them out of absolute necessity), not that he dislikes them in any way. His living in the human world doesn't say much either; all that means is that he loved his wife more than he loved being a Shinigami. And given what we've seen for his love of Ichigo's mother, that's little surprise, really. |
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2011-08-02, 00:36 | Link #920 | |
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