Game of Thrones

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And do what with his wife, exactly?

not married her in the first place would have been a obvious choice.

Originally Posted by james0246

He could have Duned it up. Have his Queen but only have children with his mistress.

or arrange a accident for the queen after a few years.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

he could have done the pragmatic thing and married one of the Frey's.

I'm talking about by the time he had to make the choice, not hindsight. We aint bringing time travel into this.

[AmeNoJaku]

If he actually wanted to achieve his objectives, he could have:
1) Ally with one of the king's brothers, instead of going to war alone
2) Take a longer route south, avoiding the bridge, since his parents' houses ridiculed him on multiple occasions
3) Negotiate more with the bridge lord, since he had very things to offer when he did so
4) Not marry the foreign girl... since even in the novel's world marriage is rarely associated with love
5) Not cross the bridge a second time and...
6) Not leave everyone at the mercy of the bridge lord, because he had so many reasons to betray him

But like his father, he ignored all reasonable advise offered, based on some dysfunctional ideals that can only bring pain and misery to himself and who loves him.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by james0246

He could have Duned it up. Have his Queen but only have children with his mistress.

That misses the point. The ship has sailed - he's married her already. As far as I know, Westeros and their state religion don't allow divorce. Yes, he should have manned up and married a Frey girl instead of breaking his vow and foisting that upon his Uncle. But once he'd married the girl he married, how exactly was he supposed to marry one of Frey's harem?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

That misses the point. The ship has sailed - he's married her already. As far as I know, Westeros and their state religion don't allow divorce. Yes, he should have manned up and married a Frey girl instead of breaking his vow and foisting that upon his Uncle. But once he'd married the girl he married, how exactly was he supposed to marry one of Frey's harem?

I was actually speaking of the before times when Robb was not married and was instead simply diddling around.

That being said, she was a foreigner (which has to count for something in such an insular country) plus he was a noble, and if Tywin can get a divorce for his son for stupid reasons (money primarily), then I see no reason why Robb couldn't find a way to get a divorce*. Hell, he could have simply gone all 8th on her ass and created his own religious order so he could marry whomever he wants whenever he wants. He wouldn't have done any of this of course, but he was the one who limited his options not anyone else...

*There's been a long discussion over the last page or two about the worldly standing of the Freys (etc) in regards to their dastardly deeds and their immorality, so let me be the first to kindly explain that the series has gone out of its way to overemphasize that morality means nothing in the face of power. Almost everyone in a position of power has lied, cheated, stolen, killed and betrayed others just to get that power (or they're from families that made such choices in the past). This is a classic scenario of might making right, so it matters very little that the Freys are bastards, because no one is going to stop them (beyond the potential karmic retribution found in Dany's dragons).

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

If he actually wanted to achieve his objectives, he could have:
1) Ally with one of the king's brothers, instead of going to war alone
2) Take a longer route south, avoiding the bridge, since his parents' houses ridiculed him on multiple occasions
3) Negotiate more with the bridge lord, since he had very things to offer when he did so
4) Not marry the foreign girl... since even in the novel's world marriage is rarely associated with love
5) Not cross the bridge a second time and...
6) Not leave everyone at the mercy of the bridge lord, because he had so many reasons to betray him

But like his father, he ignored all reasonable advise offered, based on some dysfunctional ideals that can only bring pain and misery to himself and who loves him.

Not everything you said is Robb's mistake. He tried to ally with Renly but Stannis assassinated him and Stannis himself considered Robb another usurper so I doubt there would be an alliance. In season 1 Robb had no choice but to cross that bridge, otherwise why should he accept Walder Frey's ridiculous list of conditions? There was no room for negotiation. Walder knew his advantage so he abused it.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Strategically speaking if we are going to run scenarios under which robb might have won I think there are a few things he could have done differently to win even against the master schemer Tywin Lannister.

First don't attack right away. Stay in the North and only "kinda" call your bannermen. Order White Harbor to start building and confiscating ships (from smugglers/merchants/and pirates. Send The Greatjon and all of his Umber Men over to the Iron Islands ordering/asking Balon Greyjoy to harry and plunder the Lannister lands around Casterly Rock. Tell Balon if he serves well and loyal the terms of their probation will be reconsidered. Dangle the carrot of complete autonomy from the North (don't really give it) and the return of his son Theon (if he wants it). After the war.

Then split your forces in half. Take half on the ships from White Harbor and attack King's Landing. Take the other half and split into thirds. Send one third to defend the Neck. Keep another third at Winterfell (because a King who can't protect his castle isn't an impressive King). Finally save the last third to use as reinforcements. Probably stationed at White Harbor.

Also Robb. If one of your bannermen starts acting up. Then offer a marriage. Robb could marry a Karstark girl. Or offer Sansa up as a prize (sorry ladies feudalism kinda blows for the fairer sex) to the MVP of the war.

Anyway that's my arm chair Sun Tzu advice for Robb.

[MrTerrorist]

There's always fanfiction but George RR Martin doesn't like fanfics on his works.

[Child_of_Sierra]

^^Robb had to call his bannermen and march south fast because he had to save his father back in season 1.

He'd likely be forced to march south anyway because their Tully allies (and the expected army from the Vale) was under attack from the Lannisters.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Not everything you said is Robb's mistake. He tried to ally with Renly but Stannis assassinated him and Stannis himself considered Robb another usurper so I doubt there would be an alliance. In season 1 Robb had no choice but to cross that bridge, otherwise why should he accept Walder Frey's ridiculous list of conditions? There was no room for negotiation. Walder knew his advantage so he abused it.

First mistake was to send his mother to negotiate (who got both her daughters hostage, and abandoned both her younger children), and not with the Barathion that his father named as legitimate king, but with his younger brother because he was more popular... yeah that would definitely work out

Next he fashioned himself as a king, leaving no room for compromise with all the other players.

Doing all these and having no clear goal for his war (started to save his father, when failed pretended to offere freedom to northern nobles, while he just wanted to save his sisters from the Lanisters, but in fact had no desire to fight at all, after meeting that foreign "nun")... well, obviously he was in no position to negotiate... at least his father had one objective, and however bad he tried to accomplish it, he was far more successful, then his son that could not deal with even a perverted lord.

Anyway, he is finally dead, along with his mom that "helped" a lot both him and her husband in ruining their family... now the younger children will have a chance to mature and save the family (in Tywin's interpretation of the term)

TL;DR Robb (Nedd, his wife, etc.) got themselves in the mess that ruined everyone and everything they cared about, and were lucky (or plot-shielded) to survive so long

It's like blaming all the misery of WW2 to Hitler (Lord Fray in GoT), instead of understanding all the mistakes that made that lunatic democratically elected multiple times and in power for a decade.

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

There's always fanfiction but George RR Martin doesn't like fanfics on his works.

Huge mistake... fanfiction can occasionally fix the many mistakes of original works, not to mention the fact that it is free advertisement, and can keep them alive for decades, as well as motivate talented young writers to publish original works. Being dependent on systematic institutions today is very sad.

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

^^Robb had to call his bannermen and march south fast because he had to save his father back in season 1.

He'd likely be forced to march south anyway because their Tully allies (and the expected army from the Vale) was under attack from the Lannisters.

Yeah... great strategy... I will ignore the warnings from the wall, get half the country involved in a power struggle between decadent nobles, and slaughter innocent and guilty, because my mom got my dad captured as a traitor... it's these leaders that make guys like Fray significant

[Waven]

tl:dr The whole story is about "good" people making irrational decisions vs "bad" people being pragmatic.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Waven

tl:dr The whole story is about "good" people making irrational decisions vs "bad" people being pragmatic.

but why can't good people ever make pragmatic decision in these type of novel
the good guys in these novels always make you go "DOH"

[Guernsey]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Huge mistake... fanfiction can occasionally fix the many mistakes of original works, not to mention the fact that it is free advertisement, and can keep them alive for decades, as well as motivate talented young writers to publish original works. Being dependent on systematic institutions today is very sad.

To be GRRM is hardly the only author to this and while there are works that fixes some plot points, it is ultimately subjective whether the work is 'better' or not. There are some fanfics of this series but the books themselves aren't as popular Dresden Files or Discworld. There was also a case where a book didn't get published but it was too similar to a fanfic a writer made (See: Marion Zimmer Bradley). There is also the issues of copyroght and some fans that would sell the author's work as theirs.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

but why can't good people ever make pragmatic decision in these type of novel
the good guys in these novels always make you go "DOH"

If the good guys were pragmatic then the story would over quickly and we don't want that.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

If the good guys were pragmatic then the story would over quickly and we don't want that.

i am just sick and tired of stories where Good = Stupid. Which is why i am huge fan of Discworld.

[jvcscasio]

Who said they were the good guys?

I don't think just because they have a sense of honor they are the good guys. Why would good guys put their bastards to fight in the wall? Why would the good guys break a promise for a pair of beautiful eyes?

You just think the Starks are the good guys, but even G R R Martin said, he doesn't see any of his characters as good or bad.

[Waven]

Originally Posted by jvcscasio

Who said they were the good guys?

I don't think just because they have a sense of honor they are the good guys. Why would good guys put their bastards to fight in the wall? Why would the good guys break a promise for a pair of beautiful eyes?

You just think the Starks are the good guys, but even G R R Martin said, he doesn't see any of his characters as good or bad.

Last time I checked Jon Snow went to become a crow of his own accord.
As cheesy as that sounds, Robb broke a political promise for love. While that may have been a mistake which cost countless of his bannermen their lives the general decision is seen admirable in our times.

GRRM's statement may be true for many characters but definitely not all. Can you name positive deeds or traits of, let's say, Joffrey, Ramsay Snow or Walder Frey? Now for the Starks, none of them is ever presented as sadistic, power-hungry or corrupted in any shape or form. While shown to be naive, irrational and emotional the Starks have always been the "too good for this world" beacon of righteousness.

[jvcscasio]

Originally Posted by Waven

Last time I checked Jon Snow went to become a crow of his own accord.
As cheesy as that sounds, Robb broke a political promise for love. While that may have been a mistake which cost countless of his bannermen their lives the general decision is seen admirable in our times.

GRRM's statement may be true for many characters but definitely not all. Can you name positive deeds or traits of, let's say, Joffrey, Ramsay Snow or Walder Frey? Now for the Starks, none of them is ever presented as sadistic, power-hungry or corrupted in any shape or form. While shown to be naive, irrational and emotional the Starks have always been the "too good for this world" beacon of righteousness.

When I talked about the night's watch, I didn't mean Jon Snow specifically.
Joffrey is just a kid that grew up thinking that he would become king, his mother turned him that way, I know several people in the real world who are like this, but without political power.
The thing is, I don't think we should go around calling the starks the good guys. There's no "good guys" in this kind of world.
Catching on Robb, ok, let's says that he fulfilled his promise and married Walder's daughter, would he be a good guy? NO! Even if he has reasoning for war, that doesn't change the fact that he is causing the deaths of several young men under the standards of honor.
And Jon Snow killed the wildlings with help of Igritte, but he left her! If killing wasn't bad, making a girl betray her people for her love for you and then abandoning her is cruel! She trusted him, helped him, killed her comrades for him and what does she get back? Betrayal.

There are no good guys in westeros, just a side we root for.

[Waven]

I was talking about good people, not perfect people. As we've established before, the Starks have made mistakes on several accounts. However they've never acted out of base motives or maliciousness but almost exclusivly according to justice, duty, honor or affection. Most of them are the archetype of flawed human beings that mean good.
If you want to avoid the term " good guys" so badly than I'd propose that, from a moral standpoint, they're "better" than most of the other houses.

Back to Joffrey, IIRC he has always been described to be somewhat malicious and having a lack of empathy, even in his early childhood. I think there was this anecdote from when he was a kid where he would slice open a pregnant cat to see what's inside.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by jvcscasio

Joffrey is just a kid that grew up thinking that he would become king, his mother turned him that way, I know several people in the real world who are like this, but without political power.

I don't think sole blame can be placed on Cersei's shoulders (unless Joffery's maliciousness is due to the fact that his parents were twins, which is hard to say considering his brother and sister seem to be completely fine). His fathers and extended families helped, and the very political system he lives in helped to shape him as well (if you're never held accountable for your actions, then how can you ever learn anything about responsibility?). Cersei definitely holds the largest amount of blame for Joffery's monstrous behaviour, but it's not like he had any positive role models in his life in order to instill any positive qualities (and there were plenty of people on hand to do just that).

Originally Posted by jvcscasio

And Jon Snow killed the wildlings with help of Igritte, but he left her! If killing wasn't bad, making a girl betray her people for her love for you and then abandoning her is cruel! She trusted him, helped him, killed her comrades for him and what does she get back? Betrayal.

Personally I think you are being a little too sensitive concerning such issues. Can we really claim that betraying Ygritte is equal to or worse than the wildlings killing a presumably innocent old man or the countless acts of cruelty perpetrated by so many others in the story? No, we can't, and simply deciding that any negative emotional trait or action instantly negates any and all good a person has done seems hopelessly cynical. Jon is intrinsically a good person, so to are many of the Starks, Davos (arguably the "best" person in all of Westeros), possibly Tyrion and a few others as well.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by jvcscasio

Who said they were the good guys?

I don't think just because they have a sense of honor they are the good guys. Why would good guys put their bastards to fight in the wall? Why would the good guys break a promise for a pair of beautiful eyes?

You just think the Starks are the good guys, but even G R R Martin said, he doesn't see any of his characters as good or bad.

the Starks might not be "good" but they are certainly less "bad" then the rest of the cast.