Marineford Arc discussion (Anime-only)

[SOGESNAKE]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Smoker isn't anywhere near a VA...

As seen when he went up against Hancock. He was basically rendered useless without his jutte against a Haki user.


Though, I still picture Smoker being to Luffy as to what Garp was to Roger~

[Kallen4life]

It's a given they're very strong.

question is how strong .. there seems to be quite a difference between a VA and an admiral

Smoker is certainly VA-level skill/strength-wise I think .. possibly his logia puts him a bit ahead of them, cuz logias are generally better then other DFs (generally ..) .. I mean some people are saying Smoker is gonna be the new admiral

As seen when he went up against Hancock

Hancock is one of the stronger warlords though and she certainly seemed stronger then the VA who came to get her

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Tommy

The VA's are no slouches... You could argue that Luffy is barely on par with them. For example, Luffy cannot defeat Smoker atm.

Just wait

Hancock makes me laugh ;D She is like.. On nobodies side.. Apart from Luffys Haha !

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

question is how strong .. there seems to be quite a difference between a VA and an admiral

VA Onigumo was entrusted with the task of picking Ace up from Impel Down and escorting him to Marineford. Only a high profile person would be sent for such an important job. He was also the one who restrained Marco with seastone cuffs.

VA Momonga and the Dalmation guy easily disposed of Luffy.

Despite the little we've seen from them, they're impressive so far. And I'm sure we'll see them play bigger roles in the New World later on.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Smoker is certainly VA-level skill/strength-wise I think .. possibly his logia puts him a bit ahead of them, cuz logias are generally better then other DFs (generally ..) .. I mean some people are saying Smoker is gonna be the new admiral

While it's true that rank doesn't necessarily reflect strength, I'm not sure Smoker is on their level. Logia intangibility doesn't mean anything in the upper echelon of fighters. Furthermore, the fact that Smoker carries around a seastone jutte implies that he doesn't know how to use haki either.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Hancock is one of the stronger warlords though and she certainly seemed stronger then the VA who came to get her

Just because Momonga stabbed himself to resist her charms doesn't mean he's weaker. Recall that Magellan also fell for her charms, but then he quickly shrugged off his lust.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

VA Onigumo was entrusted with the task of picking Ace up from Impel Down and escorting him to Marineford. Only a high profile person would be sent for such an important job. He was also the one who restrained Marco with seastone cuffs.

There was a 5 ship escort. Which seems kinda pointless if you think about it, because if WB decided to intercept the escort - there isn't much they'd be able to do to stop him.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It basically comes down to this:

The best that WB's side had to offer
Whitebeard
Marco
Jozu
Vista
Crocodile
Jimbei
Ivankov

The best that the WG's side had to offer
Sengoku
Garp
3 admirals
Vice Admirals
5 warlords

Whitebeard, Marco, and Jozu, are enough to keep the 3 admirals busy. Vista has shown he's a worthy opponent for Mihawk. That leaves Croc, Jimbei, and Ivankov, to contend with Sengoku, Garp, the Vice Admirals, and 4 warlords. It's simple math here. The number of heavy hitters on the WG's side exceeds that of WB's side. It's clear which side is the victor here.

You forget the remaining 11 WB Commanders, and the 43 NW Captains like Doma ( A big deal was made of Ace having beaten him in the flashback), Makugai, Squard, DeCalvin bros, Little Oars Jr ( what he did speaks for itself) all very famous and top tier pirates.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

You forget the remaining 11 WB Commanders, and the 43 NW Captains like Doma ( A big deal was made of Ace having beaten him in the flashback), Makugai, Squard, DeCalvin bros, Little Oars Jr ( what he did speaks for itself) all very famous and top tier pirates.

And where the hell were these top-tier pirates when they were so desperately needed? Tied down by the Marines.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

There was a 5 ship escort. Which seems kinda pointless if you think about it, because if WB decided to intercept the escort - there isn't much they'd be able to do to stop him.

A 5 ship escort commanded by 5 vice admirals. Being summoned for such an operation speaks of their strength/importance. WB had no chance of intercepting them anyways; he arrived at Marineford late.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

You forget the remaining 11 WB Commanders, and the 43 NW Captains like Doma ( A big deal was made of Ace having beaten him in the flashback), Makugai, Squard, DeCalvin bros, Little Oars Jr ( what he did speaks for itself) all very famous and top tier pirates.

Once again, I didn't forget them at all. Despite all that assistance, WB's side was still out-muscled.

[Kallen4life]

Furthermore, the fact that Smoker carries around a seastone jutte implies that he doesn't know how to use haki either.

seastone paralyzes though (at least users who have their 'powers' permanently irreversably active .. like Luffy actually), whereas haki doesn't

Despite all that assistance, WB's side was still out-muscled.

a lot of that had to do with territory advantages .. fighting under fire from the enemy, melting the ice under their feet, siege wall etc. .. because they were trapped in the plaza - they could be attacked from behind by the Pacifistas

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

a lot of that had to do with territory advantages .. fighting under fire from the enemy, melting the ice under their feet, siege wall etc. .. because they were trapped in the plaza - they could be attacked from behind by the Pacifistas

These things you mentioned were all because of Sengoku's strategy. Nothing wrong with that.

[Kallen4life]

but they were possible because it was a rescue mission in the heart of the most fortified marine structure in the world and they had tonnes of time to prepare


a neutral confrontaion would likely be in the NW on some island or a naval battle with fighting aboard ships

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

^ I still can't see 1 emperor+crew stalemating the marines+shichibukai on neutral ground. The balance of power wouldn't really make sense, if that were the case.

[Pwnago]

If Shanks was helping Whitebeard.. Im pretty sure that they would be able to take them on, or Sengoku might have change the strategy .. but yeah too bad. Shank is a peace maker! He doesn't resolve to violence

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Pwnago

If Shanks was helping Whitebeard.. Im pretty sure that they would be able to take them on, or Sengoku might have change the strategy .. but yeah too bad. Shank is a peace maker! He doesn't resolve to violence

And it doesn't matter. Shanks still didn't help Whitebeard, Whitebeard and Ace still died, and Blackbeard still has probably the most dangerous crew in the world right now.

There's no point focusing on "what if". All that matters is "what is".

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

A 5 ship escort commanded by 5 vice admirals. Being summoned for such an operation speaks of their strength/importance. WB had no chance of intercepting them anyways; he arrived at Marineford late.

Point being - IF WB had intercepted them - there really isn't much 5 Vice Admirals coulda done.

Once again, I didn't forget them at all. Despite all that assistance, WB's side was still out-muscled.

You clearly didn't see them as worthy of even being mentioned in that list of yours. Point being, they had every chance of succeeding and almost did.

When it comes down to it, the Pirates had Whitebeard - the man with the most destructive DF ability in existance. There is no such thing as being out muscled.
They had more than enuff big name pirates to help make their mission a success. Its not as 1 sided as you're making it out to be. 2 world powers mean absolutely nothing. Whitebeard Pirates + his entire pirate alliance is more than able.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And where the hell were these top-tier pirates when they were so desperately needed? Tied down by the Marines.

They were fighting their way through all the Marines, Vice Admirals and Pacifistas - they all made it into the main Plaza not long after the WB Pirates broke through and were there for the final push to rescue Ace - which they did, and all provided backup for Luffy.

[Pwnago]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And it doesn't matter. Shanks still didn't help Whitebeard, Whitebeard and Ace still died, and Blackbeard still has probably the most dangerous crew in the world right now.

There's no point focusing on "what if". All that matters is "what is".

Yeah.. but this is the anime -.-.. We dont even KNOW if Shanks is coming or not. And I said IF he came from the beginning. And i'm pretty sure that Shanks hasn't revealed his full power..

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Point being - IF WB had intercepted them - there really isn't much 5 Vice Admirals coulda done.

Okay, but IF is irrelevant here. What matters is what happened.

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

You clearly didn't see them as worthy of even being mentioned in that list of yours. Point being, they had every chance of succeeding and almost did.

When it comes down to it, the Pirates had Whitebeard - the man with the most destructive DF ability in existance. There is no such thing as being out muscled.
They had more than enuff big name pirates to help make their mission a success. Its not as 1 sided as you're making it out to be. 2 world powers mean absolutely nothing. Whitebeard Pirates + his entire pirate alliance is more than able.

Tell me, what did they do that was noteworthy? I'm talking about being able to compete with the top dogs, not hold off fodder.

And yes there is such a thing as being out muscled. I guess you weren't paying attention when Whitebeard had said there's a difference between being brave and being suicidal. Oars Jr. exemplified the latter. Why do you think WB didn't rush in like a fool? The objective was to make a tactical advancement towards Ace, not engage in unnecessary battles. The WG obviously had the leverage.

[Kallen4life]

my opinion is that in raw power (i.e. a fight on neutral ground) they were reasonably close, but the marine alliance possibly (probably) still has the edge .. the rest (to give the marines a definitive edge) was achieved by the territorial advantages, preparation, Squard's deceit, the fact that the pirates had to look out for Ace, as well as fight etc.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

my opinion is that in raw power (i.e. a fight on neutral ground) they were reasonably close, but the marine alliance possibly (probably) still has the edge .. the rest (to give the marines a definitive edge) was achieved by the territorial advantages, preparation, Squard's deceit, the fact that the pirates had to look out for Ace, as well as fight etc.

WB's side simply didn't have enough heavy hitters to stalemate the marines+shichibukai. However, an alliance of 2 emperors may be enough to counteract them, if not outright defeat them. This is probably why the WG feared the meeting between WB and Shanks in the New World.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Tell me, what did they do that was noteworthy? I'm talking about being able to compete with the top dogs, not hold off fodder.

You mean the other commanders? We barely even saw any of them in action.

And yes there is such a thing as being out muscled. I guess you weren't paying attention when Whitebeard had said there's a difference between being brave and being suicidal. Oars Jr. exemplified the latter. Why do you think WB didn't rush in like a fool? The objective was to make a tactical advancement towards Ace, not engage in unnecessary battles. The WG obviously had the leverage.

Well yeah - they were at a disadvantage. But that doesn't mean you don't have a chance, it just makes it that much harder for them. But then prevailed in the end, didn't they? ( well up until Ace sacrificed himself)

Once Ace was free, Whitebeard was free to let loose on the Marines, and as such he held the advantage. Plus they may have lost Ace, but Whitebeard got some nice sweet revenge against the World Government, by all but affirming the existance of One Piece. A small consolation for him i guess.

Better to just end that part of the discussion there. Otherwise this could go around in circles.

I'm lookin forward to the next episode. Its gonna be 1 helluva episode - they just better do it justice.