Code Geass - Spoilers & Speculation (take 3)

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Well...one can hope...

But...eh. Might as well say everyone's gonna die. We'll see in two days.

This is a Taniguchi show. We're not gonna have "everyone dies". just some people. Starting with Schneizel.

[Dream_Traveller]

Yes, but shows like GunxSword and such, they had hope. This is...grim. Very.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

You know, perhaps my optimism is misplaced but the recent depressing note and character deaths could be one giant red herring and Taniguchi decides to throw us a happy ending. Although seriously it still weirds me out how Nunally seems to have reverted to the naive girl she was portrayed way back in season one rather then the stronger girl she was in R2. I am still bitter about that and it just left a bad taste in my mouth.

She just fired a FLIEA herself without Schneizel even pushing it on her(though he was probably all "Muhahahaha..." when she offered. ) How is THAT not strength? She isn't that naive either. It isn't like when she talked to Lelouch he said anything that could give her a hint. She is also blind and wouldn't be able to see his hands shaking. And how he was pretty much cruel to her in his words when she is already very upset and confused, it made things worse. Someone vulnerable like that emotionally is easy prey for someone like Schneizel who tells people what they want to hear and is very trusting when it comes right down to it, crazy bastard or not.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Wow what a spectacular way of misunderstanding...

Lets go over this in point form.

- season one we have her in her fangirl mode over Zero and then subsequent disillusionment of her imagined figure when she found out Lelouch was Zero

- R2 saw various scenes where she has attempted to get to know Lelouch as a person and grow to not look at Lelouch and Zero separately but as a single person

- that Zero is a mask for the person that is Lelouch.

- among the developments is her questioning who Lelouch really is, what is his real self and is shown by her interest in the stories about Lelouch from Nunally

- Black Knight betrayal and Lelouch's subsequent mask of being a douche and then telling her to live one once again left doubt as to who he really is

- which lead us into next episode about her needing closure which she never got and seeing Lelouch on international television with Suzaku taking over Britannia

- in their uninterrupted meeting she once again voiced her question of what his goal is and why did he tell her to live and what she means to him

- once again she did not receive an answer and the two seemingly say their farewells

- Lelouch once again pulls off being a douche internationally in a spectacular way and Kallen tried to force a confrontation with her Gurren and Li held her back because every world leader would be killed if Kallen jumped the gun

- last episode we had Kallen rushing forward and being reprimanded by Li again for breaking ranks in her haste to go after Lelouch


Now to me it does not indicate that Kallen is even over Lelouch at all. Not to mention a good deal of her development has been her trying, note the trying, to understand Lelouch and not failing just shy of the goal at a crucial moment. If she does not atleast get that then yes it would be a waste of time bringing her this far because the time would have been better spent on something else. For example, Ragnarok and Marianne. And also I did not even say a word they had to end up together, I'd like that but that is not necessary for her to get some kind of resolution.

So to put it simply, in your opinion her events are/must be all about Lelouch and from my POV it's a chance that Kallens developments were for her to grow as a person.
Her not getting answer can be interpretended in many ways and the silence was an experience for her, which resulted her to move forward as she made up her resolve after this.
It's not about Kallen being over with Lelouch, it's about Kallen developments being about her as a character and growing as a person, Lelouch and the love she felt were a tool for her to grow to put it frankly. (When I earlier typed that Kallen was over with Lelouch, I meant it that she had gotten over with him at some point, but it's not completelty over.)
But there's no necessity that her developments for knowing Lelouch pursue the idea that she should get a resolution from/with Lelouch.

I'm tired of arguing this matter.
You can't find ought from is; meaning that you can't find how things are supposed to be, from how things are now.
Stop fooling around and admit that the writer may have wanted her to grow as a person and used Lelouch as a tool for that. And still it's not poor story telling, a person can grow by different experiences, you grow by experiecing love and attachement, end of!

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

She just fired a FLIEA herself without Schneizel even pushing it on her(though he was probably all "Muhahahaha..." when she offered. ) How is THAT not strength? She isn't that naive either. It isn't like when she talked to Lelouch he said anything that could give her a hint. She is also blind and wouldn't be able to see his hands shaking. And how he was pretty much cruel to her in his words when she is already very upset and confused, it made things worse. Someone vulnerable like that emotionally is easy prey for someone like Schneizel who tells people what they want to hear and is very trusting when it comes right down to it, crazy bastard or not.

In that scene all Schneizel needed was a cat on his lap to stroke and perhaps maybe a scar or something.

Still though if Schneizel knew enough about Lelouch to say that he is the kind of person to take everything into himself and not ask others and everything why couldn't Nunally figure out that her own brother was just pretending to be a douche.

Wait so have you acknowledge that Schneizel is an evil bastard now?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Yes, but shows like GunxSword and such, they had hope. This is...grim. Very.

You call this grim? 0_o

Infinite Ryvius, now that was grim. This is only like PlanetES levels of grimness.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

In that scene all Schneizel needed was a cat on his lap to stroke and perhaps maybe a scar or something.

Schneizel doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would take care of any living thing. >_>

[Dream_Traveller]

Okay, I reiterate: grim for a Taniguchi work and grim for a man whose 'modus operandi' is to put mains through hell and have them come out happy, when it certainly doesn't seem like such will happen here.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Still though if Schneizel knew enough about Lelouch to say that he is the kind of person to take everything into himself and not ask others and everything why couldn't Nunally figure out that her own brother was just pretending to be a douche.

Remember, Nunnally only knew a MASK of her brother while they were out of Britannia. She never really knew the real Lelouch because lelouch didn't want her to know. It is one of those things I guess.

Wait so have you acknowledge that Schneizel is an evil bastard now?

OF COURSE NOT silly! Schneizel is just insane... or something. But he isn't "evil." Just a more twisted version of Lelouch. Watch, he is going to throw people for a loop still and people are going to go "WTF!?" I haven't given that up yet!

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by ashlay

Schneizel doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would take care of any living thing. >_>

There is a reason he has Kanon around with him.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by whiter

So to put it simply, in your opinion her events are/must be all about Lelouch and from my POV it's a chance that Kallens developments were for her to grow as a person.
Her not getting answer can be interpretended in many ways and the silence was an experience for her, which resulted her to move forward as she made up her resolve after this.
It's not about Kallen being over with Lelouch, it's about Kallen developments being about her as a character and growing as a person, Lelouch and the love she felt were a tool for her to grow to put it frankly.
But there's no necessity that her developments for knowing Lelouch pursue the idea that she should get a resolution from/with Lelouch.

I'm tired of arguing this matter.
You can't find ought from is; meaning that you can't find how things are supposed to be, from how things are now.
Stop fooling around and admit that the writer may have wanted her to grow as a person and used Lelouch as a tool for that. And still it's not poor story telling, a person can grow by different experiences, you grow by experiecing love and attachement, end of!

Excuse me, but may I ask how is Kallen growing and getting stronger now? Because clearly she hasn't gotten over Lelouch with how reckless and idiotic she is acting on the battlefield because of her current obsession with defeating him. She hasn't grown or strengthened or anything. She's clearly in pain, pain that must be relieved. And since Lelouch is the source of the pain, there must be resolution. Use logic, for God's sake. And don't get all assuming with that "resolution from/with Lelouch", this has nothing to do with her getting with Lelouch. It's just that if all her development is to be believed, she's going to have to understand what Lelouch is doing.

[Dandylion]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Okay, I reiterate: grim for a Taniguchi work and grim for a man whose 'modus operandi' is to put mains through hell and have them come out happy, when it certainly doesn't seem like such will happen here.

Well we can agree that Lelouch and Suzaku has been through hell and are in due for a happy ending

[Dream_Traveller]

If they don't die through Requiem.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by youngde

I'm not arguing that Lelouch feels lies are necessary for his world to function. I'm just saying that, at the very least, Kallen is going to get some answers (demand answers more than likely) because if she didn't, they wasted her development for the season, and that's poor story telling.

What she does with that information is questionable, but it's a good bet that she would join Lelouch, which is likely why he didn't want to tell her in the first place. It's my hunch that she'll learn the truth (either at the end of ep24 or beginning of ep25) and help with the Requiem (but attempt to save Lelouch if the plan, indeed, involves his death). I mean, maybe Lelouch feels he needs to die (or Suzaku made it a condition for him to die, as punishment for Euphie), but Kallen might snap him out of that; he could go into hiding. It's not like he's not practiced in disappearing from the public stage.

Anyway, since we don't know what the Requiem is, and everyone seems to think it's something different, everyone's perception of what will happen next is different, so I say, let's just wait and see who's right, shall we?

If Kallen doesn't get her answers then I feel it was only to reinforce the overall message on this matter concerning the necessities of deceit in order for societies to continue to function while maintaining their own individual will. Sometimes you don't get what you want in life, like the truth, and sometimes its for the better. She'll serve a purpose (if she lives) by being one of those that enjoys the fruits of Lelouch's labors, I.E Zero Requiem.

Meh that could work, on the other hand though he needs enemies, that seems to be essential, people who oppose him. And that I think is the main counter for him ever telling Kallen anything, he needs this image to remain intact for his purposes, telling Kallen could prove to be too much of a risk.

Oh, no doubt. I'm hoping we at least get a hint about it in Turn 24 though, but if I have to wait all the way to Turn 25 to know what it is then so be it

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by whiter

So to put it simply, in your opinion her events are/must be all about Lelouch and from my POV it's a chance that Kallens developments were for her to grow as a person.
Her not getting answer can be interpretended in many ways and the silence was an experience for her, which resulted her to move forward as she made up her resolve after this.
It's not about Kallen being over with Lelouch, it's about Kallen developments being about her as a character and growing as a person, Lelouch and the love she felt were a tool for her to grow to put it frankly.
But there's no necessity that her developments for knowing Lelouch pursue the idea that she should get a resolution from/with Lelouch.

I'm tired of arguing this matter.
You can't find ought from is; meaning that you can't find how things are supposed to be, from how things are now.

Sigh, I am getting the impression that you are just not reading the whole argument, which I intentionally kept simple and broke down the points for you.

Those developments I listed are all about Lelouch. Lelouch has been central in her character development to date. Her feelings and perception of him IS her character development all season. It is not so much my point of view as it is very apparent when you brake down the events leading up to this. And none of those have been resolved yet. It is a logical progression of character development in writing that when a character has been developed in such a degree wtih another there necessitates a resolution of some sort.

Oh I am beyond tired of arguing this matter as it has been beaten to death over the course of R2 already.

But your next statement has me baffled. Plotlines follow, usually some form of logical progression. Meaning that future events are forshadowed and alluded to and are based on events unfolded to us right now. Which is where speculations and discussion comes from. You can see usually see a general direction of where a plot is going by analyzing the events that are unfolding.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by whiter

So to put it simply, in your opinion her events are/must be all about Lelouch and from my POV it's a chance that Kallens developments were for her to grow as a person.
Her not getting answer can be interpretended in many ways and the silence was an experience for her, which resulted her to move forward as she made up her resolve after this.
It's not about Kallen being over with Lelouch, it's about Kallen developments being about her as a character and growing as a person, Lelouch and the love she felt were a tool for her to grow to put it frankly.
But there's no necessity that her developments for knowing Lelouch pursue the idea that she should get a resolution from/with Lelouch.

I'm tired of arguing this matter.
You can't find ought from is; meaning that you can't find how things are supposed to be, from how things are now.

That would make sense if the show was about what it takes to become an adult. But nowhere in the anime a lack of maturity concerning Kallen is even mentioned. While her gaining maturity is part of her development, it can not be viewed as a closure for her character as the matter was not even addressed once.
On the other hand, her developing romantic feelings for Lelouch has been made canon and addressed, as well as her trying to understand him. If she ends up not understanding him because he is lying to her (or not answering her questions), then what will be the point to give her all the needed clues, minus one, for understanding him? She didn't need all that info on him to misunderstand his goals, I would even say that it would have been easier for her to misunderstand Lelouch if she didn't get this info. Therefore, in the case where she doesn't ultimately understand him, the time spent on her learning about the true Lelouch will be a waste of time.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Remember, Nunnally only knew a MASK of her brother while they were out of Britannia. She never really knew the real Lelouch because lelouch didn't want her to know. It is one of those things I guess.

OF COURSE NOT silly! Schneizel is just insane... or something. But he isn't "evil." Just a more twisted version of Lelouch. Watch, he is going to throw people for a loop still and people are going to go "WTF!?" I haven't given that up yet!

Well I gess we can agree to disagree on that as the impression I got was that Nunally knew to some extent that Lelouch was lying to her and she knew Suzaku was lying as well. She seemed to be able to read the subtext fairly well as seen with Rohmeiyer as well. But well whatever, this is the direction they have chosen I guess.


You know to plead insanity one has to be... well actually insane. Schneizel seems to have his wits about him, perhaps even more so then Lelouch at the moment. He had his sister gunned down because even Cornelia thought he was going overboard with his plan.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by Orga777

OF COURSE NOT silly! Schneizel is just insane... or something. But he isn't "evil." Just a more twisted version of Lelouch. Watch, he is going to throw people for a loop still and people are going to go "WTF!?" I haven't given that up yet!

Schneizel is not insane, he is a sociopath...

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Well I gess we can agree to disagree on that as the impression I got was that Nunally knew to some extent that Lelouch was lying to her and she knew Suzaku was lying as well. She seemed to be able to read the subtext fairly well as seen with Rohmeiyer as well. But well whatever, this is the direction they have chosen I guess.

Emotional instability. That is what happens. Schneizel is there to use her any way he wants really. He knows how to get the best out of people without them even realizing it. And he doesn't do it by force either. He is that epic. XD

You know to plead insanity one has to be... well actually insane. Schneizel seems to have his wits about him, perhaps even more so then Lelouch at the moment. He had his sister gunned down because even Cornelia thought he was going overboard with his plan.

No, Schneizel is insane. Or he lost his damn mind. What ever. He is a Misguided Idealist with radical views. Because he seems to have lost faith in humanity to right itself. I think a lot had to happen to force him to think this way. Watch... there is more to his motivation than this. I know it...

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Thinking about it I don't know who I despise more

Lelouch for basically coming off like the Director stating that "only evil can defeat evil" which I find to be wrong. I have nothing wrong with the character, I just keep finding the Director sending disturbing aesops.

But we also have demonstrations and examples that prove he isn't evil, that despite his pledges he has never been really able to cross the line to the full extent. While that has often led to much indecisiveness, his balancing of these two elements is what I essentially believe is necessary for real progress to be made. Don't delude yourself into thinking that all it takes is good intentions, it is important to have them but at the same time in the current world and system they often prove to be no enough in the end, is the overall message I think.

Suzaku for being possibly the least japanese warrior I have ever seen, when the going gets tough he abandons all honor, and idealism. Whatever happened to "Death is light as a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain" that the Japanese believed in. To me it just seems like the Director is saying that the Japanese code of the warrior is wrong, you shouldn't believe in honor, or right or wrong.

No worse off then when the Samurai were wiped out, Knights made obsolete, thanks to the modernization of warfare, and that's real world examples in history too. Its not so much a insinuation, more of being an observation that to live in such a world we must often times press forward into the future and leave the past behind if one is to survive.

If you find an enemy soldier abandon the Geneva Code, and just start using the cattle prod to the crotch technique.

Also that bit was simply a joke about how I find Lelouch morally disgusting.[/QUOTE]

Meh, I agree with him on these matters. Its not pretty, its not nice what he often does, but he realizes that and doesn't do it out of some twisted pleasure, because that is what he feels at least, is what it takes to change the world from what it currently is, and often times it proves to be far more morally disgusting then whatever Lelouch has done. Acting results in a heavy price, inaction however is just an outright loss. Depending on what kind of results you produce, whether the results justify the means will determine the answer, depending of course on whether the results are justifiable of course, which I think is what Lelouch is adhering too in rejection of both Ragnarok and Damocles but continuing in his pursuit through Zero Requiem.

[Pink-chan]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Or they could be fucking with us, and we see Cornelia lying lifeless in a pool of her own blood next episode.

I think Cornelia could pull a Suzaku when he was shot way back in season 1 stage 1. I expect Cornelia to be wearing an plot armour if she survives Who will like her to off Schneizel?