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Aquaman OS · 2013-11-09, 15:24

Two things I noticed coming out of the last episode of Destiny Remaster that I didn't think about earlier.

1. Rey and Shinn kind of answer once and for all that, no it's not just the Freedom's power that's why Kira is so good, his own skill is a serious part of it. In fact Shinn says the stronger and heavier armed an MS is, the more difficult it is to control, yet Kira can make Freedom dance like it was part of his body. So no, any idiot can't just hop into Freedom and kick ass, you need serious skill to work it like Kira does.

2. It shows a serious downside to Kira's no killing policy. Since all the MS's return with their systems mostly intact, it means they have tons and tons of cockpit recorded battle data and camera footage on Freedom, which is why Shinn is able to study up on it so well.

quagmire · 2013-11-09, 18:02

Knowing how Freedom fights doesn't mean you can still defeat them. Despite the no kill policy, Shinn still couldn't defeat him in simulations. It took Kira forgetting he had more weapons than a rifle and beam saber, him being distracted, and wondering whether the Impulse was an enemy while he was damaging the Freedom for Shinn to defeat him.

If it wasn't for that complete BS, and Kira engaged him like he did when he fought against Shinn in the SF, who knows if Rey's strategy would have worked still. Then again when Kira was fighting in the SF, both Shinn and Rey both forgot that Kira doesn't shoot to kill and lose any sort of strategy against Kira while raging....

monster · 2013-11-09, 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire

Then again when Kira was fighting in the SF, both Shinn and Rey both forgot that Kira doesn't shoot to kill and lose any sort of strategy against Kira while raging....

The only strategy Shinn used against the Freedom was to anticipate Kira's nonlethal attacks and then use the Impulse's ability to neutralize the effects of those attacks. Without the Impulse's ability, Shin would've been disabled.

So Shinn is actually doing better against the Strike Freedom, considering the Destiny can't just replace parts/weapons while it is deployed.

quagmire · 2013-11-09, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

The only strategy Shinn used against the Freedom was to anticipate Kira's nonlethal attacks and then use the Impulse's ability to neutralize the effects of those attacks. Without the Impulse's ability, Shin would've been disabled.

So Shinn is actually doing better against the Strike Freedom, considering the Destiny can't just replace parts/weapons while it is deployed.

Granted the Impulse's ability to replace parts on the fly proved vital in the strategy, but doesn't mean Shinn later forgot how to anticipate Kira's nonlethal attacks. Same thing with Rey. Shinn raged while Rey was busy becoming Rau when fighting Kira. Didn't bother to come up with another strategy when this time their MS's were relatively equal to each other in performance and power.

monster · 2013-11-09, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire

Granted the Impulse's ability to replace parts on the fly proved vital in the strategy, but doesn't mean Shinn later forgot how to anticipate Kira's nonlethal attacks.

Shinn anticipated Kira's attacks simply to evade/defend against them, and he's still doing that with the Destiny, considering how fast it is. The difference here is that Kira is now also committed to the fight, which means Kira is not wasting time trying to run away or looking somewhere else.

Quote:

Same thing with Rey. Shinn raged while Rey was busy becoming Rau when fighting Kira. Didn't bother to come up with another strategy when this time their MS's were relatively equal to each other in performance and power.

Well, considering they've only had one encounter before their final fight, it might be harder to come up with a strategy, especially when battling in an open space.

Aquaman OS · 2013-11-09, 19:07

Strike Freedom despite how much it looks like the original is still a different machine. Even if Shinn was able to get the timing of Freedom's beam rifle down so he can predict every shot Kira made that won't work with SF's two rifles being that they are different caliber can combine and are two of them.

Likewise when he cornered Freedom over the water and came at with the ship sword, Kira couldn't really do anything but take it and stab back (although Impulse and Shinn would have been destroyed if Kira made that a kill stab, while Kira would have survived just the same.) where as SF could catch it with its beam shields and railgun Shinn (or beam him and kill him.)

Not to mention his plan was for Impulse vs Freedom, Destiny had different abilties.

As for why he didn't train up again, aside from the fact the SF had only been used twice so it didn't have two years worth of data like Freedom did, it was also unlikely he'd be able to plan for a duel against it with no interferance anymore since Freedom now had a new Justice and was backed by the nation of Orb.

Plus by that point Durandal ass kissing and his own record started going to his head. He viewed Freedom as a superior oponent to overcome when he first fought it. After beating it, beating Athrun, and getting a kill count of 5 Destroys with 2 orders of the nebula and the Faith badge, Shinn thought he was the best pilot in the series, and he should just innately be better than everyone.

Another personality contrast to the slightly more humble Kira and Athrun.

Skye629 · 2013-11-10, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire

Granted the Impulse's ability to replace parts on the fly proved vital in the strategy, but doesn't mean Shinn later forgot how to anticipate Kira's nonlethal attacks. Same thing with Rey. Shinn raged while Rey was busy becoming Rau when fighting Kira. Didn't bother to come up with another strategy when this time their MS's were relatively equal to each other in performance and power.

Not quite,

The SF has one huge advantage over the Destiny and the original Freedom

It boasted nearly 3 times the firepower of the original Freedom, while on top of that 8 of its new sources of firepower could be made to fire from variable angles (DRAGOONS)

The Orb fight was not too bad, considering due to the DRAGOONS gravity limitations the Freedom was restricted to 5 guns, all located on the body (like the original), so attack patterns were similar

Shinn should have definitely run some space simulations vs. the Legend to get a feel for combating DRAGOONS. Rey would have probably been more than willing to help too if Shinn wanted to

quagmire · 2013-11-10, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye629

Not quite,

The SF has one huge advantage over the Destiny and the original Freedom

Shinn should have definitely run some space simulations vs. the Legend to get a feel for combating DRAGOONS. Rey would have probably been more than willing to help too if Shinn wanted to

That is why I said relatively equal. They were both in high performance suits that were not limited by power like the Impulse was.

There are weapon differences sure. But, they were both beyond the specs of any other MS. All you had to do to nullify the SF weapon superiority was to get Kira to forget he has them just like he did in the Freedom vs Impulse fight. Shinn could do that by screaming, " We're not enemies!" to confuse Kira again.

Aquaman OS · 2013-11-10, 13:45

The reason he was hesitating against Impulse was because he was afraid Zaft was deliberately baiting them to fight to record footage to use against them and Orb to paint them as Logos supporters. Which is why AA didn't directly fire on anyone, and none of the Orb forces were allowed to assist them.

By the time of 42, they were already at exactly what they had been trying to avoid all show, and invasion of the Orb mainland by Zaft. By that point there was pretty much no reason to hold back anymore, the situation couldn't possible get any worse.

Which ironically makes their earlier playing nice to extent with Zaft utterly pointless. They might have well have let Minerva be destroyed, let Berlin burn to the ground, and slaughtered their way through the Zaft forces at Angel Down for all the good going easy on them did. They ended up in a vicious war with Zaft anyway.

quagmire · 2013-11-10, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The reason he was hesitating against Impulse was because he was afraid Zaft was deliberately baiting them to fight to record footage to use against them and Orb to paint them as Logos supporters. Which is why AA didn't directly fire on anyone, and none of the Orb forces were allowed to assist them.

I get that. Not disputing not having AA not go for direct hits or using Orb forces to help him, but he only used the beam rifle and beam saber. Didn't use the rail guns or the beam weapons stored in the wings.

Using those weapons would not have done much if that was ZAFT's intentions because they had footage of Freedom engaging the Impulse anyway( and chopping off its head). Not using all of Freedom's weapons wasn't going to say, " Hey we don't support Logo's". It was a stupid handicap Kira put on himself.

Destined_Fate · 2013-11-14, 09:54

Shinn never figured that he should have trained to combat the Strike Freedom. After all at ORB it fought very similarly to the Freedom which he defeated already. However, the Strike Freedom's home field is space and Shinn never encountered it enough there to gain experience fighting against it. Rey didn't push him to study on how to handle DRAGOONS either so he didn't as he didn't see the need for it.

The new Justice also had tools that Shinn wasn't even aware of as he had limited experience fighting that too while Shinn's accomplishments in the Destiny were all over the news and stuff. So it wouldn't be hard for Athrun and Kira to take Shinn's study strategy and use it against him because Shinn was so famous now and his battles were pretty big ones that got coverage. Athrun would also know Shinn's fighting style and temperament too. Athrun also would have gotten some knowledge of the Destiny/Legend before he left Durandal's service.

I said earlier that the Strike Freedom was the most powerful Gundam in Destiny, I still stand by it. On Earth it isn't really all that special but in space no mecha can keep up with it. Especially not in the hands of a Super Coordinator like Kira whose a combat vet of two wars after Destiny.

quagmire · 2013-11-14, 23:24

Well that sucks. No new battle scenes with Freedom vs Impulse. Not even fixing the omissions like not showing the beam on the sword tip, make it clearer where the explosion originated,etc.

95% of this remaster has been fan service.

Rising Dragon · 2013-11-14, 23:25

Are you surprised? Really? This is Gundam SEED Destiny we're talking about.

quagmire · 2013-11-14, 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Are you surprised? Really? This is Gundam SEED Destiny we're talking about.

No, not after they completely abandoned new scenes in the Seed remaster after the battle of Orb. I guess animating the Perfect Strike blew the budget for both remasters. So the only thing they could do is give us Meer's and Talia's nipples and Luna's panties......

Aquaman OS · 2013-11-15, 00:26

On the other hand this was one of the best animated battles and iconic moments of the series. There wasn't much TO change. (although I'm not sure why they insist on still reusing stock footage while reanimating stuff that was nice new animation to begin with).

And they did fix a few errors. Notably Freedom swapping between its rifle and saber out at random thoughout the fight even when it shouldn't be possible (having its rifle suddenly drawn when Impulse crashes the damaged parts to it and Freedom crashing to the ground despite just having slashed Impulse with its saber so there's no time to switch weapons, and then suddenly having the saber out again when Impulse comes at it. And also the infamous, Freedom still having its rifle after Shinn destroyed it error. Both are fixed, Freedom has its saber out for the entire duration of the fight once Kira draws it until he's running and has it destroyed, where upon its later errorous appearance is corrected and Freedom has the saber out)

Like with the not much new footage for the last Seed arc. It was some of the better animation of the show battle wise anyway, why fix what isn't broken?

I'd like to think they're saving the budget to give some nice new animation to SF IJ and Destiny, which was a real problem with Destiny when the actual NEW Gundam's were mostly redressed stock footage of Gundam's from Seed.

Or maybe they just gave up. Realized no amount of new animation can fix the problems and nothing short of totally redoing the series will fix that. Like how they kind of gave up toting Shinn as the main character this time when they realized that nothing short of rewriting the show could change that.

The American Average · 2013-11-15, 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire

So the only thing they could do is give us Meer's and Talia's nipples and Luna's panties......

you make it sound like its a bad thing

.

still i guess my wants of hoping for new animations for Destiny gundam and Akatsuki gundam are like 0% considering only like 2 changes were made to the Freedom vs Impulse fight, which is like one of the highest points in all of Destiny

Aquaman OS · 2013-11-15, 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

still i guess my wants of hoping for new animations for Destiny gundam and Akatsuki gundam are like 0% considering only like 2 changes were made to the Freedom vs Impulse fight, which is like one of the highest points in all of Destiny

Why not? Like I said this battle was actually pretty well animated to start, so why waste money fixing what wasn't broken.

Plus they actually added a Tanhauser beam going from the Minerva into the big explosion wave, so that at least confirms the big explosion was the Tanhauser, and not Freedom going nuclear.

Impulse also now PS's down only after the explosion stops, so they were apparantly both hit by the explosion wave, and Freedom was torn apart because Kira killed the reactor and the PS with it. So there you go. That was what happened.

n0m@n · 2013-11-15, 01:13

The OP4 would need a lot, and I mean a lot of improvement in terms of animation.
The other OP certainly did reuse animations, but it wasn't bad as the OP4 since the OP4 animation was ridiculous for the original GSD. Hope Sunrise actually modifies them. Or actually replace the OP4 with the OP they used for Final Plus(Vestige).

Skye629 · 2013-11-15, 02:00

Damn so all they did was add in the special edition scenes?

Disappoint

Well thanks for saving me 20 minutes of my life

BTW whats up with Youtube these days? The comments section seems to be all messed up (talking technical problems here, such as not being able to reply, and these weird bob things)

Destined_Fate · 2013-11-15, 02:16

They are very selective about those special edition scene usage.

Kinda annoying they didn't use the Lunamaria scene when she looks for Shinn instead used the regular Athrun version.

I see no reason why they couldn't have just used all the Special Edition scenes or none at all. None of this random mix and match stuff.

2013-11-14, 23:25	Link #9973
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 37	Are you surprised? Really? This is Gundam SEED Destiny we're talking about. __________________

2013-11-15, 01:13	Link #9978
n0m@n C-Z Join Date: Jan 2011	The OP4 would need a lot, and I mean a lot of improvement in terms of animation. The other OP certainly did reuse animations, but it wasn't bad as the OP4 since the OP4 animation was ridiculous for the original GSD. Hope Sunrise actually modifies them. Or actually replace the OP4 with the OP they used for Final Plus(Vestige). __________________

2013-11-09, 15:24	Link #9961
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Two things I noticed coming out of the last episode of Destiny Remaster that I didn't think about earlier. 1. Rey and Shinn kind of answer once and for all that, no it's not just the Freedom's power that's why Kira is so good, his own skill is a serious part of it. In fact Shinn says the stronger and heavier armed an MS is, the more difficult it is to control, yet Kira can make Freedom dance like it was part of his body. So no, any idiot can't just hop into Freedom and kick ass, you need serious skill to work it like Kira does. 2. It shows a serious downside to Kira's no killing policy. Since all the MS's return with their systems mostly intact, it means they have tons and tons of cockpit recorded battle data and camera footage on Freedom, which is why Shinn is able to study up on it so well.

2013-11-09, 18:02	Link #9962
quagmire Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Knowing how Freedom fights doesn't mean you can still defeat them. Despite the no kill policy, Shinn still couldn't defeat him in simulations. It took Kira forgetting he had more weapons than a rifle and beam saber, him being distracted, and wondering whether the Impulse was an enemy while he was damaging the Freedom for Shinn to defeat him. If it wasn't for that complete BS, and Kira engaged him like he did when he fought against Shinn in the SF, who knows if Rey's strategy would have worked still. Then again when Kira was fighting in the SF, both Shinn and Rey both forgot that Kira doesn't shoot to kill and lose any sort of strategy against Kira while raging....

2013-11-09, 19:07	Link #9966
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Strike Freedom despite how much it looks like the original is still a different machine. Even if Shinn was able to get the timing of Freedom's beam rifle down so he can predict every shot Kira made that won't work with SF's two rifles being that they are different caliber can combine and are two of them. Likewise when he cornered Freedom over the water and came at with the ship sword, Kira couldn't really do anything but take it and stab back (although Impulse and Shinn would have been destroyed if Kira made that a kill stab, while Kira would have survived just the same.) where as SF could catch it with its beam shields and railgun Shinn (or beam him and kill him.) Not to mention his plan was for Impulse vs Freedom, Destiny had different abilties. As for why he didn't train up again, aside from the fact the SF had only been used twice so it didn't have two years worth of data like Freedom did, it was also unlikely he'd be able to plan for a duel against it with no interferance anymore since Freedom now had a new Justice and was backed by the nation of Orb. Plus by that point Durandal ass kissing and his own record started going to his head. He viewed Freedom as a superior oponent to overcome when he first fought it. After beating it, beating Athrun, and getting a kill count of 5 Destroys with 2 orders of the nebula and the Faith badge, Shinn thought he was the best pilot in the series, and he should just innately be better than everyone. Another personality contrast to the slightly more humble Kira and Athrun.

2013-11-10, 13:45	Link #9969
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	The reason he was hesitating against Impulse was because he was afraid Zaft was deliberately baiting them to fight to record footage to use against them and Orb to paint them as Logos supporters. Which is why AA didn't directly fire on anyone, and none of the Orb forces were allowed to assist them. By the time of 42, they were already at exactly what they had been trying to avoid all show, and invasion of the Orb mainland by Zaft. By that point there was pretty much no reason to hold back anymore, the situation couldn't possible get any worse. Which ironically makes their earlier playing nice to extent with Zaft utterly pointless. They might have well have let Minerva be destroyed, let Berlin burn to the ground, and slaughtered their way through the Zaft forces at Angel Down for all the good going easy on them did. They ended up in a vicious war with Zaft anyway.

2013-11-14, 09:54	Link #9971
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Shinn never figured that he should have trained to combat the Strike Freedom. After all at ORB it fought very similarly to the Freedom which he defeated already. However, the Strike Freedom's home field is space and Shinn never encountered it enough there to gain experience fighting against it. Rey didn't push him to study on how to handle DRAGOONS either so he didn't as he didn't see the need for it. The new Justice also had tools that Shinn wasn't even aware of as he had limited experience fighting that too while Shinn's accomplishments in the Destiny were all over the news and stuff. So it wouldn't be hard for Athrun and Kira to take Shinn's study strategy and use it against him because Shinn was so famous now and his battles were pretty big ones that got coverage. Athrun would also know Shinn's fighting style and temperament too. Athrun also would have gotten some knowledge of the Destiny/Legend before he left Durandal's service. I said earlier that the Strike Freedom was the most powerful Gundam in Destiny, I still stand by it. On Earth it isn't really all that special but in space no mecha can keep up with it. Especially not in the hands of a Super Coordinator like Kira whose a combat vet of two wars after Destiny.

2013-11-14, 23:24	Link #9972
quagmire Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Well that sucks. No new battle scenes with Freedom vs Impulse. Not even fixing the omissions like not showing the beam on the sword tip, make it clearer where the explosion originated,etc. 95% of this remaster has been fan service.

2013-11-15, 00:26	Link #9975
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	On the other hand this was one of the best animated battles and iconic moments of the series. There wasn't much TO change. (although I'm not sure why they insist on still reusing stock footage while reanimating stuff that was nice new animation to begin with). And they did fix a few errors. Notably Freedom swapping between its rifle and saber out at random thoughout the fight even when it shouldn't be possible (having its rifle suddenly drawn when Impulse crashes the damaged parts to it and Freedom crashing to the ground despite just having slashed Impulse with its saber so there's no time to switch weapons, and then suddenly having the saber out again when Impulse comes at it. And also the infamous, Freedom still having its rifle after Shinn destroyed it error. Both are fixed, Freedom has its saber out for the entire duration of the fight once Kira draws it until he's running and has it destroyed, where upon its later errorous appearance is corrected and Freedom has the saber out) Like with the not much new footage for the last Seed arc. It was some of the better animation of the show battle wise anyway, why fix what isn't broken? I'd like to think they're saving the budget to give some nice new animation to SF IJ and Destiny, which was a real problem with Destiny when the actual NEW Gundam's were mostly redressed stock footage of Gundam's from Seed. Or maybe they just gave up. Realized no amount of new animation can fix the problems and nothing short of totally redoing the series will fix that. Like how they kind of gave up toting Shinn as the main character this time when they realized that nothing short of rewriting the show could change that.

2013-11-15, 02:00	Link #9979
Skye629 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Damn so all they did was add in the special edition scenes? Disappoint Well thanks for saving me 20 minutes of my life BTW whats up with Youtube these days? The comments section seems to be all messed up (talking technical problems here, such as not being able to reply, and these weird bob things)

2013-11-15, 02:16	Link #9980
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	They are very selective about those special edition scene usage. Kinda annoying they didn't use the Lunamaria scene when she looks for Shinn instead used the regular Athrun version. I see no reason why they couldn't have just used all the Special Edition scenes or none at all. None of this random mix and match stuff.