2012-10-26, 15:14 | Link #81 | ||
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2012-10-26, 15:53 | Link #82 | |
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No, you said redeeming qualities (in your last post), nothing about the characters actually attaining redemption. Don't confuse the two (which you and Dengar pointed out to me earlier).
And, once again, I clearly pointed out extensive flashbacks as being the deciding factor for villains with the potential for redemption, and all save Kabuto were redeemed, and since the genjutsu Kabuto is currently under will end if he redeems himself he could eventually be counted on the list as well. Quote:
That being said, "Extensive" is fairly obvious. Gaara, Itachi/Sasuke, Nagato, Kabuto and now Obito have all had multi-chapter specific flashbacks. They are the only villains that have had such extensive construction of specific backstories concerning specific instances in their lives. |
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2012-10-26, 17:15 | Link #83 | |||
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2012-10-26, 18:00 | Link #84 |
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I thought that Nagato turned to Tobi after Yahiko died, but i just remembered that he already knew how to summon and use the Gedo Mazo when Yahiko was killed, and that means he had to approach Tobito despite Yahiko rejected his offer. I wonder if that will ever be explained. Also the black rods that came out of the Gedo Mazo are supposed to be part of Madara's plan and after the summoning those connected to Nagato, so it seems Madara planned that Nagato would learn who Madara is and what he has to do in order to resurrect Madara. So i guess the plan was to send Zetsu to Nagato to teach him about Gedo Mazo and maybe use those black rods to mind control Nagato to follow Madara's will. Nagato also used black rods to control the dead corpses, so it makes sense. It seems Madara anticipated that some day Nagato will be forced to use Gedo Mazo, and for that kind of power Nagato's sold his soul to the devil. And it seems they knew the price since Konan warned Nagato to not use it. I guess Kishimoto wants to leave the explanation of this for time when Obito or Madara will finally try to use it.
What doesn't make sense is that Nagato should have known that Tobi is not Madara, but whenever they talk Obito refers to himself as Madara and he's even giving orders as Madara. Whenever Obito is involved in something it seems to be a plot hole Poor Obito is the most abused Uchiha character by Kishimoto, he's being used in so many stupid ways so that heroes could save the world finally |
2012-10-26, 19:22 | Link #85 |
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Why would Nagata know that Tobi isn't Madara? Mysterious strong guy with Sharingan shows up saying he is Madara. Makes sense to me. Unless he was skeptical, but apparently he wasn't.
He gave the Rinnegan to Nagato without him noticing. |
2012-10-27, 06:17 | Link #86 | |
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The other possibility is that Nagato was not told this part of the plan, but then why would Obito say that Nagato betrayed them, if you don't know the plan/orders you can't really betray anyone. |
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2012-10-27, 12:37 | Link #88 | |
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2012-10-27, 13:48 | Link #90 |
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I don't know why people are so surprised by that. He has the MS. That instantly makes you one of the most broken characters in the series ... unless you're not an Uchiha. Plus senju DNA, plus Madara as some sort of mentor. It shouldn't be surprising considering the ridiculous imbalances in the world of Naruto.
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2012-10-27, 15:03 | Link #91 |
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^also spiral zetsu increased obito's intelligence, mobility and strength. just look how he slaughtered a large team of mist ninja single handed right after the upgrade. plus in comparison to naruto pre rasen-shuriken and sage mode which he achieved in a short amount of time, obito's advancement is not out of bounds
not only all that, but minato was still better and won the fight. it's not like obito trampled him or even barely won |
2012-10-27, 17:21 | Link #93 | |
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2012-10-27, 19:15 | Link #94 |
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I'm more curious about the Gedou Mazou. Wasn't it supposed to be in the process of casting the Infinite Tsukiyomi, with Naruto and gang trying to destroy it and Tobi getting in the way? Seems at some point Kishi forgot that, had the statue disappear, and have everyone's focus shift to fighting the bad guy instead of stopping him.
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2012-10-28, 00:05 | Link #95 | |
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but a character being duped isn't a plot hole, it's a reasonable explanation. nagato was a follower. he was just the figurehead leader of akatsuki, but in reality he always followed yahiko and then obito's lead. its easy to manipulate a follower and keep information from them. someone like itachi would be much more difficult to fool, but it does seem that obito managed to convince itachi that he was madara as well, although itachi was much less in on things than nagato of course. but yea, it's not a plot hole. that term keeps getting thrown around, but there are far fewer plot holes in this whole obito storyline than has been made out |
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2012-10-28, 02:03 | Link #96 | |||
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It does explain so very much.You completely missed the point of his death and Itachi's words then, Kisame's quality revealed by his death was his absolute loyalty. As often in this show, the intrinsic good qualities of the vilains are the opposite of the way the ninja system twisted them. Quote:
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It seems Sasuke believed him when he called him a liar? |
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2012-10-28, 04:25 | Link #97 | |
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Yes, I am making this analogy on purpose. The point is there's little reason to doubt his claim. Didn't the readers believe him as well until the real Madara showed up? |
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2012-10-28, 05:48 | Link #98 | ||
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And then read this itachi-san: Quote:
And i think that there's nothing wrong having a plot hole like this, because Kishimoto most likely chose the emotional impact over a more rational choice. The story of this manga wants to appeal to our emotions and not to our rational thinking, so Kishimoto's choice of Obito is probably a good choice. If he chose other characters who are not connected in any way to the main characters that we care about then all this would have less impact. My bet was on Izuna, possibly combined with the will/soul of other dead ninjas, but Izuna is connected only to Madara, and only very indirectly to Sasuke. But Obito is directly connected to Kakashi and to many others of his generation, and to Naruto's father, etc. and most importantly the reader already cares about him since the Kakashi gaiden was a part of the story that most readers loved. Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-10-28 at 06:04. |
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2012-10-28, 08:37 | Link #99 |
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There's still the possibility, that Endo-Madara will flashback to the time when he killed off the Uzumaki Clan, genjutsu forward it to Naruto just as when Naruto is about to be defeated, and AT THAT MOMEMNT, Sasuke will know that he and Naruto are the same and must defeat Endo-Madara.
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2012-10-28, 09:51 | Link #100 | |
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weekly spoiler discussion |
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