Kanon - 2006 - Episode 2 Discussion / Poll

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Minoto

I'm disappointed...this episode did have some true LOL moments (my favorites were Yuuichi shaking Nayuki awake, and of course the jam) but overall, the pacing just seemed off. Even the timing within individual scenes was weird...take Shiori's introduction as an example: in the Toei version, Ayu smacks into the tree; snow falls immediately and buries her; and simultaneously, there's a muffled shriek or scream off to the left. A few seconds later, it cuts to the image of Shiori down on the ground, an obvious result of the snowfall caused by Ayu.

In the new version, Ayu runs into the tree, but nothing much happens; she and Yuuichi talk for much longer; THEN Shiori appears on the ground, and Yuuichi blames Ayu for it, but the whole linkage of cause and effect that was so evident before is entirely absent now.

I've been looking forward to this ever since I first heard it was being remade; why am I not enjoying it more? I can't fault KyoAni's art or animation; it's definitely beautiful...but so far, it seems a little hollow, somehow.

Well, if you playback that scene, there was a sound effect of snow falling before Shiori's exclamation. So what happened was that Ayu bumped into the tree, loosening the snow but not making it fall yet. Ayu and Yuuichi then squabble. Shiori walks past and the snow finally falls. Yuuichi blames Ayu for causing the snow to fall.

[Minoto]

Originally Posted by Skane

Well, if you playback that scene, there was a sound effect of snow falling before Shiori's exclamation. So what happened was that Ayu bumped into the tree, loosening the snow but not making it fall yet. Ayu and Yuuichi then squabble. Shiori walks past and the snow finally falls. Yuuichi blames Ayu for causing the snow to fall.

Yes, I heard that. The time between the two events still seems way too long, and there's still no clear cause for why the snow falls when it does, other than that it's convenient -- previously, Ayu's impact with the tree brought it down, and the only coincidence was that Shiori was walking by at that moment. Now, Ayu only loosens the snow, and then *nothing* brings it down when Shiori finally arrives? I'm not expecting absolute realism or 100% correct physics here, but that's stretching the whole willing-suspension-of-disbelief idea a bit far, at least for me...

[Vexx]

Hmmmm, there *can* be a substantial delay between a shake and the snowfall from a tree --- its usually a rather wet snow when that happens (not the ultra dry stuff the Cascades and Rockies are subject to). But yeah... the timing is pure comedy slapstick.

I see this effect more frequently with rooftop snow ... .smack the house and it might be minutes before a huge cascade of snow comes down. The smack destabilizes the snow... but its internal structure and friction fights a slowly losing battle until the critical point is reached (nonlinear system theory) and you get a sudden phase shift.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Minoto

Yes, I heard that. The time between the two events still seems way too long, and there's still no clear cause for why the snow falls when it does, other than that it's convenient -- previously, Ayu's impact with the tree brought it down, and the only coincidence was that Shiori was walking by at that moment. Now, Ayu only loosens the snow, and then *nothing* brings it down when Shiori finally arrives? I'm not expecting absolute realism or 100% correct physics here, but that's stretching the whole willing-suspension-of-disbelief idea a bit far, at least for me...

It's not that uncommon for a delayed reaction on the snow's part. Eh-to... how do I explain this without being too wordy?

Ayu bumping into the tree provided kinetic energy which shook the snow on the tree, but the force was not large enough to immediately make the snow fall. It was however, enough to provide potential energy within the snow( whose position has been shifted already from a stable one to an unstable one) and from then on, gravity took over as the snow slowly, but surely, gained momentum and fell just as Shiori happened to walk past underneath.

It is perfectly realistic in nature, and obeys the laws of physics, but I suck at explaining it in layman's terms, so I am now hoping for a person who actually majored in Physics to help me explain it better.

Cheers.

[Lilith]

Ep 2
This episode had it funny moments. I enjoyed it. Ayu~ <3

Special thanks to everyone who posted their observations. I've never watched Haruhi nor AIR, but it really amuses me to see the references. It feels like all of them live in the same universe or something. Good job KyoAni~

[Vexx]

References are great.. .unless they actually detract from the story.
So far there's been hardly anything that a viewer who hadn't seen the other shows would wonder "what the hell was that about?" ... so cookies for KyoAni.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Minoto

I'm disappointed...this episode did have some true LOL moments (my favorites were Yuuichi shaking Nayuki awake, and of course the jam) but overall, the pacing just seemed off. Even the timing within individual scenes was weird...take Shiori's introduction as an example: in the Toei version, Ayu smacks into the tree; snow falls immediately and buries her; and simultaneously, there's a muffled shriek or scream off to the left. A few seconds later, it cuts to the image of Shiori down on the ground, an obvious result of the snowfall caused by Ayu.

In the new version, Ayu runs into the tree, but nothing much happens; she and Yuuichi talk for much longer; THEN Shiori appears on the ground, and Yuuichi blames Ayu for it, but the whole linkage of cause and effect that was so evident before is entirely absent now.
.

Or another way to look at it.....

I think that's because the snow didn't fall from the same tree. They are in a residential area containing nicely trimmed trees. Shiori is standing in front of the neighboring tree. I mean you can say that snow from the top branches of the tree that Ayu hit fell on the neighboring tree causing it to fall on Shiori. Ayu does do 4 steps to reach Shiori. That could give you a time delay too.

Those references all good, but if Nayuki and Misuzu really had pink PJs in the game then isn't it that Air is referencing Kanon? The same with the Yuichi monologue statement by Kaori. Another forum mentioned that this is a also game event. If so, then it becomes Haruhi is referencing Kanon and not the other way around.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian

Spoiler:

No, she didn't recover. At least the game never mentioned it. I would hazard a guess that she got better due to her more "optimistic" view towards life. But never in the game does it mentions that she recovered.

She is just well enough to go to school, that's all.

Spoiler:

OTOH one could also argue that they never specifically said she died from illness either. Since the final scene was her huging Yuuichi at the school's canteen several weeks after her 17th birthday at school.

Though you must think about it this way, considering her entire story revolves around people insisting that she would never make it past her 17th birthday, her suddenly getting "well enough" to go to school makes no sense when just before they were hammering it in to look like she was about to die, then she just get's "well enough" to go to school is highly anti-climatic because her "death" scene was powerful and they may as well keep her dead. She suddenly becoming well due to a miricale jives much better to the overal theme and flow of the story.

[orion]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Spoiler:

OTOH one could also argue that they never specifically said she died from illness either. Since the final scene was her huging Yuuichi at the school's canteen several weeks after her 17th birthday at school.

Though you must think about it this way, considering her entire story revolves around people insisting that she would never make it past her 17th birthday, her suddenly getting "well enough" to go to school makes no sense when just before they were hammering it in to look like she was about to die, then she just get's "well enough" to go to school is highly anti-climatic because her "death" scene was powerful and they may as well keep her dead. She suddenly becoming well due to a miricale jives much better to the overal theme and flow of the story.

Spoiler:

I thought that that Shiori's path, as I read the FAQ for the all ages version, is alittle difficult to swallow. I mean if you're so sick that you won't make it to your next birthday, then you won't be walking around normally and expire at 12 midnight like computer software. If you're really that sick, you need to be at home, in a hospital or hospice environment and you'd definitely look alot worse than she did. There needs to be progression to her illness and her "recovery" imo. Plus, it would be nice if they stated what she actually had.

[panzerfan]

Yuiichi monologue statement and Kyon in SuzuHaru are totally seperate though (it turns into an unintended case of parallelism) given that the suzuharu the novel is by no mean influenced by Kanon.
The AIR thing though would a reference of a reference...

The snow thing... I think that KyoAni actually handles it closer to how things like that tend to happen. Immediate impact normally doesn't bring snow crashing down immediately from what I recall (I haven't tried it nor do I intend to).

Spoiler:

Shiori arc... in good end, she lives, for how long though is anybody's guess. It's an emotional arc nonetheless. You find out that she wants to live...

Upon reviewing what happened in Kanon, I can't imagine how crushed Yuiichi will be if everything falls upon him simutanuously like a deck of cards. Akiko, the all-knowing is what I am banking on to pull him through but... (I am getting ahead of myself).

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by orion

Spoiler:

I thought that that Shiori's path, as I read the FAQ for the all ages version, is alittle difficult to swallow. I mean if you're so sick that you won't make it to your next birthday, then you won't be walking around normally and expire at 12 midnight like computer software. If you're really that sick, you need to be at home, in a hospital or hospice environment and you'd definitely look alot worse than she did. There needs to be progression to her illness and her "recovery" imo. Plus, it would be nice if they stated what she actually had.

Remember, Kanon is one of Jyun Maeda's early works. There's bound to be some rough edges that can do well without nitpicking (Nobody did question why Misaki can walk around the school naturally in ONE despite being blind). You should just take a look at the huge picture instead of commenting on some minor stains.

[panzerfan]

Spoiler for I disagree with you on that orion:

Orion, I am going to refute you about what you have said.

I seen this myself. There are people, that, on the brink of death, normally a few days away, suddenly get a last wind out of themselve. It is almost as if the they are set ablaze at their last moments of life. The sick might be hospitalized, but when it gets to terminal... I can't describe this really.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Lilith

I've never watched Haruhi

Go, now!: http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/786.html

Do not come back for 7 hours.

Originally Posted by Minoto

I'm disappointed...this episode did have some true LOL moments (my favorites were Yuuichi shaking Nayuki awake, and of course the jam) but overall, the pacing just seemed off. Even the timing within individual scenes was weird...take Shiori's introduction as an example: in the Toei version, Ayu smacks into the tree; snow falls immediately and buries her; and simultaneously, there's a muffled shriek or scream off to the left. A few seconds later, it cuts to the image of Shiori down on the ground, an obvious result of the snowfall caused by Ayu.

In the new version, Ayu runs into the tree, but nothing much happens; she and Yuuichi talk for much longer; THEN Shiori appears on the ground, and Yuuichi blames Ayu for it, but the whole linkage of cause and effect that was so evident before is entirely absent now.

I actually have to agree. It's a timing issue, obviously, but it did seem quite awkward, particularly when you compare it with that scene in the first series. In the grand scheme of things, it's probably minor, but maybe it's an indication that 24 episodes might stretch Kanon's story a bit thin. One hopes not, though.

[toxic_trance]

Damn..I cant believe I forgot to add this pic

Guess the three girls in this scrrenshot of Episode 3 from AIR

[orion]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Spoiler for I disagree with you on that orion:

Orion, I am going to refute you about what you have said.

I seen this myself. There are people, that, on the brink of death, normally a few days away, suddenly get a last wind out of themselve. It is almost as if the they are set ablaze at their last moments of life. The sick might be hospitalized, but when it gets to terminal... I can't describe this really.

Spoiler:

I've seen the terminally ill too, although mostly adult. So, I guess it depends on the individual and the disease process which is why I hope that this time they tell us what kind of illness she has. It would better connect us to her instead of giving her the generic terminal illness imo. I feel that it's more dramatic and the audience will better connect with her if they see a gradual decline like what happened to Misuzu in Air.

Since I'm a fan of the Ayu path, I wouldn't nitpick any of the other characters' paths. I did read an interpretation that better explains it. I also understand Nayuki now too.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by toxic_trance

Damn..I cant believe I forgot to add this pic

Guess the three girls in this scrrenshot of Episode 3 from AIR

:O i didnt notice that scene at all...so i take it that its kinda a guest appearence in air from kanon *goes back to watch ep 3*

Spoiler for Potential Spoiler. Don't read if you have not seen the original series:

edit: soo many spoilers about death to Shiori is a BIG spoiler and depressing me a bit

[orion]

Originally Posted by toxic_trance

Damn..I cant believe I forgot to add this pic

Guess the three girls in this scrrenshot of Episode 3 from AIR

Also, proof that Ayu looks great in teen clothes.

Spoiler for Deathkillz:

It's not a spoiler imo since others said that we don't know if she had a full recovery or a partial recovery in the game.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Spoiler:

:edit: soo many spoilers about death to Shiori is a BIG spoiler and depressing me a bit

The theme to Kanon is "Miracle" and how they do happen in the most depressing of times. So.....

[Skane]

Guys, guys. Mark your spoilers.

Deathkillz, you need to hide your spoiler in a spoiler tag. MakubeX2, you need to hide your quote from Deathkillz in a spoiler tag too.

You're ruining the surprise for the newcomers.

Cheers.

[panzerfan]

Moving onto lighter side of things...

Originally Posted by Kyuichi

Wh- what jam is this?

Originally Posted by Akiko

Classified Information.

Originally Posted by Kyuichi

Will that jam wind up on the table again?

Originally Posted by Nayuki

I think... you should be prepared for unannounced emergencies.