2012-08-25, 04:35 | Link #81 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 36
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[QUOTE=Ithekro;4319643]The basic problem with Operation Sealion is that it shouldn't be able to work at all. Germany just did not have the ability to mount enough on an offensive across the Channel. Maybe later, but the British still had places outside of Luftwaffe bombing range while the Royal Air Force could still effectively bomb any invasion forces. That and the Germans were never able to effectively neutralize the Royal Navy, even with air power.
[quote] If Germany no longer had to pour resources into the meat grinder of the Eastern front, then I think they'd have the industry to easily outproduce Britain in terms of airpower. They already had a very large airforce anyway. Once they had air superiority, the Royal Navy would be as able to block them crossing the channel as it was able to stop them from invading Norway. Land based air power is far superior to sea power. Quote:
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The main question is how long Isolationists could have kept the US out of the war. If we're conservative and make it a year or two, I still think that would be too late to save the Soviets. America alone could not have beaten Nazi Germany, nor could the Soviets. Only the combined strength of Britain, the Soviets and America could do it. |
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2012-08-25, 10:10 | Link #82 |
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It would require a collosal amount of bad fortune for the Royal Navy in order to pave the way for Sealion. The comparison with Norway is rather inane since UK was only half-hearted in assisting them anyway. You made forward the requirement of Barbarossa's absence in order to enable the Sealion plan, but I'm still skeptical that it could've provided Germany with sufficient resources. Besides, it'd be just telling Stalin to backstab them anyway.
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2012-08-25, 19:12 | Link #83 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
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After beating the Soviets, Germany would be able to fully put all of it's resources into building a superior air force, and would easily have outproduced the British and be able to negate the Royal Navy. In fact, to make matters worse, victory in Russia would also put Germany in an excellent position to lock down Britain's supply lines by taking Suez and maybe persuading Spain, Iran, or even Turkey to join the Axis. As I said before, the US would likely intervene to save Britain, but the real question is if they could mobilize fast enough before Germany assembled a large enough air force. |
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2012-08-25, 21:20 | Link #84 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
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That depends on if the Americans are already at war with Japan or not. Some suggest that even with an isolationist government we would still get into a war with Japan based on the US possessions in the Pacific.
The other thing is that in normal history, there was a deal with Britian around the time of the embargo on Japan. Any attacks on British colonies would be as if they attacked American lands.
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2012-08-26, 11:37 | Link #86 |
思想工作
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Germany would've "beaten" the Soviet Union the same way Japan "beat" China - militarily winning the major battles, but a lack of manpower and bad logistics would've ensured that the Germans could not effectively control anything beyond Moscow, if that.
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2012-08-26, 13:23 | Link #87 | |
Knight Errant
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2012-08-26, 13:29 | Link #89 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2012-08-26, 15:45 | Link #90 | |
Knight Errant
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They wouldn't really be able to ship it in either, as Archangel would be cut off. The only route left would be via Vladivostok and the TranSiberian railway, and that could be cut by the Japanese, if the bulk of the soviet army has already been eliminated, or is occupied in the west. |
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2012-08-26, 15:59 | Link #91 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
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You'd have to ask a Russian about that. They would know better where they can and cannot grow food. Assuming they can't just import rice from China in trade for weapons to use against the Japanese.
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2012-08-26, 16:15 | Link #92 | |
Knight Errant
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Here's a map of Russian agricultural production. Green is low, Red is highest, white means nothing Something to bear in mind is that this is a modern map, the soviets did a lot during the cold war to try to expand their grain production in Siberia. How high it was in 1940 I don't know. The most fertile region (the "breadbasket") was Ukraine. |
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2012-08-27, 08:13 | Link #95 | |
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And this is assuming that the Germans would reach the Urals, something which doability ought to be questioned.
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2012-08-27, 08:40 | Link #96 | ||
Knight Errant
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If the Soviets had crumbled at Smolensk, Leningrad and Stalingrad (and all 3 battles were close), there would have been very little from stopping them to continue all the way to the Urals. In summer, it's just dry steppe, easily crossed by Tanks. They would have overrun the fleeing Soviet forces. |
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2012-08-27, 10:08 | Link #97 |
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Maybe because the Germans were under a losing, exhausted regime on the verge of breaking down on its feet and were not occupied by a single party(only a third east went to Soviet) and that Germany was a much smaller country in territorial size compared to European-Russia. .The German armies were so stretched in Russia IOTL that they had to secure their flanks with Italians and Romanians, and we all know what happened then...
Smolensk was never close, it was a failed Soviet attempt at a counteroffensive. Smolensk mattered for psychological effect, not military results. Leningrad was not one battle, it was many, and it wasn't close to actually falling after Zhukov saved it. That the Soviets repeatedly tried and failed to take Siniavo does not disguise that fact. The Leningrad Siege was the product of the Soviets having to fight where Germany was strongest, with logistics to a great extent working against them. While Stalingrad was also never that close either.
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2012-08-27, 11:01 | Link #98 |
Megane girl fan
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I don't have time to type out a wall of text, (which is why I've pretty much been absent from this fascinating discussion), but I'd like to point out something that I've noticed about Japan and hasn't really been talked about.
In that era, every American kid grew up playing team sports. Baseball, basketball, football, all relied on working with team mates, all of which have a valuable position, to win against an opponent. I don't as much of that "team effort" mindset with Japan, which prized individual sports (Kendo and Judo for example). This is especially apparent with their aviation as their fighters were designed with individual plane vs. plane engagements in mind. I'm not saying that Japan couldn't coordinate , they very obviously could, but what is apparent to me is that all the way down to squad level, Americans seemed to be a bit better at it. How would things have been different if Japanese kids of that era were playing team sports as they were growing up like the American kids were doing? Endless "Historical" Soul
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2012-08-28, 18:54 | Link #99 | |
思想工作
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2012-08-28, 19:04 | Link #100 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
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I don't doubt Partisans would be a problem, but put it this way, the rest of Europe was also pretty populated, and had tons of Partisans (Vive la Resistance!), but didn't cause the Germans that much trouble. It certainly would have made a post war occupation hell though. |
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alternate history, discussion, fiction, history |
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