2011-10-13, 01:52 | Link #82 |
Junior Member
|
If I remember correctly it's in Fate/Character Material but if not it's somewhere else in Fate/Complete Material - after the fifth war the grail is just dormant again. Ten years after the fifth Holy Grail War, Waver Velvet comes back to Fuyuki and works with Rin to dismantle the grail. Apparently the event was as intense as a holy grail war, even though it was not. Oh, and when Waver comes back he has the title of Lord El-Melloi the second
|
2011-10-13, 02:26 | Link #83 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
In Fate, Saber destroys the lesser grail with Excalibur. In UBW, the Lesser Grail collapses in on itself because it doesn't have a physical vessel. |
|
2011-10-13, 05:05 | Link #84 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
|
Quote:
Quote:
First and foremost: the VN insist on -destroyed- grail (which is, as cherry lover already explained, the lesser holy grail, not the Great Grail). Purify would mean its truest sense: the grail would have been no longer tainted and be just a pure prana artifact, which would be the appropriate wish granting machine. Thus the question: if Shirou "really" purified it, why would he destroy it afterwards? Why would Waver and Rin go as far as dealing with the -greater holy grail- later? The lesser grail is just a catalyst that was accumulating the Heroic Spirits in order to allow itself to materialize fully, in order to open wide the connection with the Greater Grail which is below the Mount Enzou Spoiler for End of Fate Zero:
This is the very reason why the Mud was still sipping out, which generated that incident at Fuyuki. This is also the reason why Illiya had to shut the door herself in Heaven's Feel.
__________________
|
||
2011-10-13, 06:17 | Link #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
|
He's not really posting concrete evidence. He's posting circumstantial evidence based off his own conjecture about how the wording is being used, which is wrong. Right off the bat, the whole "Avalon purified the grail" thing is crap, since even after being projected, there's still plenty of it spewing out of the grail. Kotomine even tries using it to attack Shirou again. So even if it did purify what was surrounding Shirou, rather than merely destroying it (which is what it did, since it literally ceased to exist, rather than just becoming a gooey source of light), that was but a mere fraction of the whole.
|
2011-10-13, 07:38 | Link #86 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-10-13, 14:01 | Link #87 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
|
Quote:
Spoiler for FZ:
Kiritsugu playing with the leylines of the underground system is what messes things up. Ehmmm you are aware that what happens in the 3 routes of Fate stay night are not consecutive right ? They are 3 different possible endings to a unique stream line of events.
__________________
Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-10-13 at 17:29. Reason: except the infodump had nothing to do with the current discussion at hand. This is not a wiki |
|
2011-10-13, 14:24 | Link #88 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
|
Quote:
The prana wasn't converging to the location of the Great Grail. Quote:
In the general perspective as already explained: In both Fate and UBW, Saber destroyed the vessel of the Lesser Grail, preventing the Greater Grail to spill its content to the world. In HF, due to the number of irregularities (Zouken's doing, obviously), the Greater Grail was way much more of a threat, hence the intervention of Illysvael. As explained already, what the characters are mainly dealing with is the -lesser- grail. And by no means it was purified at all. Merely destroyed. And I seriously don't think it is the correct thread to make a info dump where it doesn't connect Z and SN at all. It would actually fit the Game spoilers thread of SN. No need to clutter it more than necessary, and I did say overdone details are unwelcome.
__________________
|
||
2011-10-13, 15:36 | Link #89 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
|
Quote:
Alumnox I thank you a lot for taking the time to answer and to let me copy your posts. ------------------------------------------------------------- One more question. I don't get it. Why the church lets them do what ever they want. As far as I remember in Fate Stay Night they send someone later and now in fate zero they will supervise the war. Its a different church in Fate Stay Night or how that works. |
|
2011-10-13, 15:51 | Link #90 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
|
The idea is to use this thread to connect both F/Z and SN, sort of a discussion thread so people can relate both War. It isn't supposed to expand and go in details with everything (otherwise, it will sidetrack way too much the objective of it): the ideal thread would be, as I mentioned, the Game spoiler thread for FSN (which would be the one to expand information about the universe of Fate in general, although the wiki is already doing the job quite well, based on objective and detailed grounds).
Anyway, as for the Church, its goal is the same in both wars: The church has no real interest in the grail, since it isn't the true "Holy Grail", but since it is still a powerful artifact, there is a necessity to supervise the said event, otherwise things would go out of hand. Since the Association would be criticized as too partial in some cases, the former asked the cooperation of the Church in that case. Because of Kirei's accomplishment and the fact he is the son of Risei, he was appointed as the Fifth War supervisor. Of course, you bet it was the worst decision possible, but they had no idea what Kirei actually did in the fourth war.
__________________
|
2011-10-13, 16:19 | Link #91 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
|
Quote:
On the other hand, I have plenty of evidence, like the entire HF route of the game.... Quote:
Canonically, according to the Side Material books, Waver Velvet disables the Great Grail six months later, and it is finally dismantled ten years later after some kind of war. Quote:
Where in that passage does it even imply that what he did is responsible for the earlier Grail War? Indeed, the fact that he acted on the assumption that the Grail War would happen 60 years later (as expected) is strong evidence against that.... Quote:
Quote:
And, no, AM is not inside the "swirl of root". If it were, then the whole world would be completely fucked, because AM would corrupt everything. It is inside the Great Grail, hence what happens towards the end of HF. Quote:
|
||||||
2011-10-13, 17:19 | Link #93 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
|
The thread guidelines were clear:
Quote:
As for the points you have made, if you don't have the full picture of it, they are pretty much "harmless".
__________________
|
|
2011-10-13, 17:22 | Link #94 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
|
Quote:
In hindsight, how the hell did I come up with that conclusion... *feels very stupid, jumps of a building* Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2011-10-13 at 17:32. |
|
2011-10-13, 18:53 | Link #98 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
|
Quote:
And like I said earlier I interpreted the OP wrong. But this is getting off-topic. Lets talk about something more interesting. |
|
2011-10-15, 14:20 | Link #99 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
|
Just leave a note: Since the current question was threading way too much on the bigger and deeper picture (nature of the grail etc), I've moved the posts in the spoiler game thread.
I will also explain and update the guidelines of this thread once again: the sole purpose of this thread is to explain the many connections between Zero and Stay night which were not really clear for some people. This is of course leading to spoilers and whatnot (why some characters from 1 franchise didn't appear on the other and/or acted differently, for example). However, this is not supposed to be a wiki/full spoiler thread, where "anything and everything" is explained (that is basically the spoiler game thread). This is basically a very niche and specific thread. A very quick Q&A for anything bridging both franchise. It is -not- supposed to clarify the whole fateverse/nasuverse at all.
__________________
|
|
|