2016-06-23, 01:58 | Link #81 | ||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Yes, it is speculation, and I think it might be possible that Roid could have been involved, if any Windermerean was complicit in bringing that DE onto the planet. But the way that the rest of the Windermereans have been presented when they talk about this sounds to me as if they truly believe NUNS did it. At this point, it is the word of the Windermerean rulers against the word of NUNS/the NUN government. Is NUNS more trustworthy simply because our protagonists believe what they say? Is not the behaviour of that NUN official in episode 12 enough reason to cast doubt on the 'accepted history' of what happened? NB: I'm not saying that Windermere (all of the Windermerean leaders we've met) are off the hook at this point. But I have some serious doubts as to the 'official' stories related by both Freyja and Mirage. Is one right and the other wrong? Or are both wrong? Where does the truth actually lie? Quote:
A weapon that has the potential to case large-scale destruction indiscriminately, especially against civilians. Destruction: "the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired." Tell me, how is Var a WMD?
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2016-06-23, 02:08 | Link #82 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2016-06-23, 02:14 | Link #84 |
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Location: Munich, Germany
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Where Chaos gets their information is actually not hard to guess. Since they are a military organized unit they have more or less access to military intelligence. Also we don't know how far Lady M influence is on NUN. it seems to be strong enough to delay the destruction if the ruins on raga. Also who knows that this MI is fully correct. My guess is that Arad, Ernest and NUN are somehow keeping a secret from the others since they share the same past as Gramia.
The Var seems like a biochemical weapon as it attacks the nerves of those infected. However, I tend to say it is only part true and with the right dose it is like adrenaline.
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2016-06-23, 02:19 | Link #85 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, in the very first episode, they did it on a small scale, and it clearly wasn't the first time.
And then lately they used the ruins to mindrape several planets at a time and threaten them with destruction if they didn't surrender. A WMD's a WMD even if you "only" threaten its use. |
2016-06-23, 02:30 | Link #86 | ||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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Oh, and also your reasoning for how "on a small scale" in episode one means they have done it on a scale of billions somewhere else, which we haven't been shown. Quote:
Indiscriminate: "done at random or without careful judgement."
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2016-06-23, 03:51 | Link #88 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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The Kingdom of Wind is deliberately spreading Var or haven't you heard what Roid said it wouldn't matter if the NUN finally caught up with their scheme as they've spread enough apples and water for a ban not to matter. The Kingdom of Wind did this for years even before they declared war. |
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2016-06-23, 04:42 | Link #89 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
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In episode 9, we learn that the Var Syndrome is probably caused "when the fold bacteria that are living parasitically in a person's cells transmit and amplify intense emotions through hyperspace, making the individual behave violently." In other words, the bacteria themselves don't cause the problem, it's emotions that cause it. Windermere has spread the Var bacteria so that they can deliberately use it to control people, rather than killing them. So again, how does this fit into the definition of WMD, given that it's not indiscriminate, but deliberate? ====== Just so this is clear: I'm not trying to lambast anyone for thinking that Windermere is doing something that you find utterly unforgivable in a moral sense. What I am questioning is the way that some people are using the term "WMD" to excuse themselves from using logic to state their position. Instead, they're using a term so politicised that anyone who disagrees is automatically labelled as being 'immoral'. Criticise (and 'hate on') Windermere all you want. But if you're going to use political terms, then be prepared to defend how you are using them.
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2016-06-23, 05:10 | Link #90 | |
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What you are quibling about is semantics. Trying to avoid the issue. |
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2016-06-23, 05:20 | Link #91 | |
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To sum up. Var actually is not the bad thing but how the fold waves manipulate the carrier of the bacteria. In this case actually Heinz is the WMD and those with the Var syndrome are just the receptor for his fold wave emitting singing.
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2016-06-23, 06:08 | Link #92 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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Of course, I still have problems with the idea that 'Heinz is the WMD', since they're not actually using it to make people kill each other, but to make sure that the nations they're invading fall without many (if any) people dying. Of course, it's the 'mind control' element that people find repulsive. I suggest sticking to that, instead of trying to draw analogies that don't really work.
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2016-06-23, 06:51 | Link #93 | |
A blast from the past
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Is there any evidence that the Ragnan government wasn't consulted or informed? As I understand it, they're autonomous, but still a part of NUG, right? There should be some sort of chain of command of something. War-time decisions and all that. It may not be "right" or "proper" or "nice", but what's to say they weren't (at least) informed, even if off-screen? I don't remember if it was shown or addressed...
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2016-06-23, 08:48 | Link #94 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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So it's heavily implied that they don't even need to notify Ragna. Or do you think they sent another person to give a 'courtesy notice' to the Ragna government as well? I'll grant that there is another possibility: maybe any planet that wants to set up relations with with NUN and thus gain access to galactic trade etc, has to give up so much of its sovereignty that it has no say in 'military affairs', even if it's about defending itself. But if that's the case, then I completely get why Windermere wanted out of that treaty, and wanted the NUN government and NUNS out of the cluster. I mean, it's like: "Sure, you're welcome to join the galactic system under our direction and rule. We'll provide you the opportunity to trade, to import fantastic technology, and export your produce. But in return, you have to give up any right to defend yourself, and rely instead on our military that's controlled centrally. Oh, and if we deem it necessary, we can just blow up parts of your planet, since you're part of us now."
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2016-06-23, 10:22 | Link #95 | |
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I doubt the behaviour of the NUN rep seemingly proving the Windermerean claim that the NUN does not deal with the locals on equal terms was an accident on the part of the writers. It wouldn't be that hard to throw in a line about "the Ragnan government has already agreed to our plan" if it wasn't meant to showcase NUNS trampling over the locals.
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I do find it notable that mind control was used on the civilian population of Al-Shahal, but on Voldor it was targetted at the military. Is this because the Wind treats natives of the cluster differently from immigrants? Or is it just because we haven't been back to Voldor recently? |
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2016-06-23, 10:44 | Link #96 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Also while the apples and water may cause people to develop the conditions required to become var they still need to hear Heinz's voice in order for it to become active Plus there's also that suspicious Char clone with the Vajra in the background and correct me if I'm wrong but that manga was about the earlier years of the Var (between the end of Frontier and the beginning of Delta) |
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2016-06-23, 10:44 | Link #97 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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The reason Windermere is blitzkrieging the ruins is that they can mind control the entire cluster to prevent a future resistance which will fuck them over in a few years. If the ruin network is taken away from Windermere I can see Windermerean soldiers trapped like rats desperate to survive from the enraged natives. As seen on the Prologue a guy eating a Windermerean apple went Var. And that was on a Macross fleet. Berserk mode Var they don't need to hear Heinz voice as it depends on the growth of Fold Bacteria in their system. Closest thing we've seen like this V-type Fold Bacteria infected Hydra that went rabid on Frontier. |
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2016-06-23, 11:26 | Link #99 | |
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Gramia/Keith: Until no human exist in Brisingir Cluster Roid: Until world's habe been liberated or NUNG are willing to renegotiate. NUNG: no statement made yet, however they are willing to destroy cultural sights to avoid quick spreading of Bar The dangerous part is that both faction may forget what they were fighting for.
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2016-06-23, 11:35 | Link #100 |
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Could someone please answer me, just how many ways should we put it so that everyone finally understands that
1) nobody here thinks that Var is awesome and is cheering Windermere on, we are merely assuming that they have their own logic and motivations and these are intersting to explore, along with the controversies and ambiguities of the whole situation on all sides and for all characters; 2) this is not a real life situation, no real people are being hurt, and not everyone can muster strong feelings about fictional people doing fictional things to other fictional people in a fictional universe where the power of song wins wars; 3) seriously, why are you guys taking this so damn seriously, it's like you're debating an actual war situation that is going on IRL, I understand some people must always fight over something but come on. |
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