2008-03-22, 23:33 | Link #81 | |
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I don't think the riot in Lasa itself was organized but coordination of various demonstration across China were not sporadic either. Trying to control a riot's movement at a certain location is meaningless and it would look very phony but agitating multiple demonstrations are far less revealing unless you check the timeline thoroughly. In case you didn't know there was also a bombing in Bejing the same day the monks did their protest in Sichuan. This riot itself will not bring independence towards Tibet but it certainly made a large hole in CCP's prestige not to mention a concern over investment in mainland China. Yes people are dying but there are people who are probably making a fortune over this also which sickens me the most. |
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2008-03-23, 00:05 | Link #82 | |
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2008-03-23, 01:26 | Link #84 |
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Age: 38
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I think that the most interesting thing to consider about this issue is the overall picture. Determining what is right and what is wrong is not so easy.
From the outset I think that most of us feel that China's actions with Tibet are wrong. Nobody's made mention of it here but on Slashdot it frequently comes up that Tibet's culture will be wiped out by China. This regarded as being a horrible thing that shouldn't happen yet would be inevitable if China absorbed Tibet, and thus Tibet must have independence. Someone teaching in Japan wrote a very insightful remark. He asked his students to imagine that they were in America, but that the Native Americans were still prominent. What could be done to deal with these people while maintaining national interests? The students didn't mention conquering them or anything of that sort, but of elevating them to the current society. Someone else chimed in that this was how many Chinese viewed the issue with Tibet. Is it for the better of the Tibetan people to cede independence to China? They may lose elements of their culture and they will be put under the control of the Chinese government, but in turn they'll contribute back to China and will receive support from the government (for what it's worth). If China can really elevate the society and bring all the benefits that modern technology has to offer to them, is it so wrong? Of course, I've become disenfranchised with the prospect of aiding foreign societies by taking control of them thanks to the "war on terror" and America's dealings with Afghanistan and Iraq. China has big issues with the territories that make it up. I don't believe that people should easily be able to dismiss China's actions in Tibet by stating that China can help the Tibetans so greatly by putting them under Chinese society. Independence is a nice thought, but it's meaningless if the independent society would be better served by joining with a larger society. Again, it isn't clear that Tibet would benefit from being free or not. Lastly, culture... perhaps not so big of an issue. People like to believe that culture should be preserved and not change, but culture is ever-changing. Tibetan culture won't be completely lost, but it won't be the same - just as it won't be the same even if Tibet remains independent and begins developing as a modern society.
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2008-03-23, 01:38 | Link #85 |
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Sometimes, it is better to be independent. Sometimes, it is better not to be independent. Quebec has been debating over and over whether to go independent or not. I think Canada do gave them a choice. Even if Quebec goes independent, the relationship between Canada and Quebec will still be very close.
If Tibetan suffer from cultural persecution, that can be a very attractive reason for them to ask for independent. Someone mentioned that they get some special right like they can have 2 children, but in exchange for that, you are also asked to lose your identitiy as a tibetan. Then, it might not be such a good deal. Let's take US as a example. If everyone can have 1/2 million but you have to give up Christianity as a religion, guess what will happen? |
2008-03-23, 01:54 | Link #86 | |
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Not much of a example I am afraid. In any case, from what I hear it is not just spiritual freedom there are protesting for but also a feeling of injustice comparing the economic status of the coastal cities with their own situation and the Han people moving in with all their funds to capitalize on the growing tourism economy while they sit in the dust with prices for goods rise through inflation again due to flourishing coastal cities. |
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2008-03-23, 01:57 | Link #87 | |
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2008-03-23, 03:55 | Link #88 | |||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
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Well, I think we are not in the position to say what China or Tibet should do. But I suppose if one asked the tibetan people, they would not necessarily want independence from China, but more freedom and more equality when it comes to sharing the wealth. Its not a secret that the economical rise in Tibet bypasses ethnic Tibetans. I guess it is a double edged sword when the chinese government tries to lure Tibetans away from religion with the promise of a new modern society, but then excludes them from the modern society economically. In their own home, they are not only ruled by Han-chinese, Han-chinese also run most of the business, rather choosing a Han-chinese as an employee over a local Tibetan. If I was a Tibetan, this racial biasedness is what would hurt most. In that case, I'ld say the major impetus for seeking independence is unfair living conditions. Quote:
This is a very difficult situation. Intimidation by force or Independence to Tibet, imo both will harm China and predictably make it a very instable region and thus do more bad than good. The best way out of the conflict is to win the hearts of the Tibetans as subtle as possible. The worst case scenario is, when the tensions between poor and rich people become an ethnic matter in China.
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Last edited by Jinto; 2008-03-23 at 04:21. |
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2008-03-23, 05:18 | Link #89 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Please keep in mind I am not for or against the actions of China as I mostly believe that most governments and world leaders including the Dahli Lama are power hungry self centred and selfish. I have yet to be shown actions that would convince me otherwise, but hey I understand that self interest is an important part in leading a group against the rest of their race. Shame after so many years as humans we still can't understand that race, culture, religion and all the rest of that c**p doesn't really make us different from each other and we would do so much better if we could learn from our past mistakes and aim towards to future together as a single race.
Now that rant aside here is my on topic rant... I've noticed during the reporting of this that the BBC seem to show the Chinese army vs the protesters, kinda TS part 2. The HK news showed a more unbiased view on the events as did the Times online. When I chatted to my friends in the UK they were all very angry at China due to BBCs reporting. I pointed out the Times reports and they all were pretty shocked at the one sided reporting. This was a few days ago and I just got back online so I don't know if the BBC have changed their reporting. So personally I am not for or against China or the protesters as I believe as humans surely there is a better way to move forward which does not involve violence or blaming each other, but how many of you were influenced by BBCs reporting and how many looked around for other news stories? Got to say China should also learn to stop trying to control the media, and all news agencies should try to report the news instead of influencing it with their own political agendas.
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2008-03-23, 06:28 | Link #90 | |
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you certainly have a point. most of us do immediately jump to attack china as soon as this news gets out, but its highly possible that the news we get from bbc and what not is skewed as well.. on the other hand the chinese also control the media to an extent.. so whose to say? the underlying fact, which there can be no question about, is that tibet was annexed by china , against the will of the tibetan people, - the dalai lama left china for a reason, and people can say whatever about him, but he is a representative of them, and not a half bad one either. there is absolutely no doubt, that there is some amount of supression, if we take the fact that all news we get is skewed. evidence? what about the dissapearance of the panchan lama? its easy to understand why the tibetans want independence.. but what people just completely, and i mean completely, ignore, is that there are a lot of benefits from remaining within china. the real issue is not independence, but its the protection and preservation of tibetan culture. once that is achieved then there should be talk of independence. the next question that arises is can tibetan culture be protected while remaining in china? |
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2008-03-23, 06:38 | Link #91 | |
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To think this demonstration is all about tibet, is just wrong. It is about injustice in PRC. |
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2008-03-23, 07:05 | Link #92 | |
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Such type of logics as "both side might have some faults, we should refrain from judging any more" are, in this case, not neutral. Silence and time benefit Beijing. Chinese persons here, please refute the westerners through providing more precise knowledge, not through just blaming their arrogance and leading total discussion into stalemate. Foreign reporters were shut out, so it is only native who could survery and transmit the truth.
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And, even speaking modestly, I was surprised to see you define yourself as conservative. |
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2008-03-23, 12:34 | Link #93 | |
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You should not consider people who live in Mainland China and receive the full effect of its propaganda to be anything BUT biased towards their own government. And yes, I would've been happy if MacArthur interfered, though no, I don't think he should've used the bomb. And yes, I am conservative... very conservative ;O Meaning, my political views are shifted very much so to the far right! |
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2008-03-23, 13:22 | Link #94 | |
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2008-03-23, 13:43 | Link #96 |
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honestly, when i lived in China I never think my self as han-chinese or some one else as other race chinese. If I see monoglia-chinese, tibetan-chinese I only think them as people from that region, I never thought about race untill reaing some of your post in this thread.
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2008-03-23, 13:53 | Link #97 | |
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As I recall the communist party led to a ton of suffering within China. Wasn't there mass starvation in China during the reign of Mao? Didn't the breakdown of the Red Guard cause a ton of violence and strife within China? I'm not a history buff so anyone who knows more, feel free to jump in and clarify. But that reasoning would be like saying "I'm glad George Bush is in charge of the United States - we're in a better place now than we'd be otherwise. (Look, no terrorist attacks, and we only had to give up a bit of our freedoms - all thanks to George Bush, amirite?!)" Who can really say that? As for what's going on in China now, there are loads of problems. Partly due to the restrictive nature of the government corruption and public suffering occur, but the people can't speak out against it. Industries are flourishing but it's coming heavily at the expense of China's environment. That massively hurts the population and is arguably government negligence. China's growth doesn't seem sustainable unless they view their entire population and land as expendable, and they're going to be feeling the impacts of their current activity in the near future.
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2008-03-23, 14:03 | Link #98 | |
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2008-03-23, 14:04 | Link #99 | |||
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2008-03-23, 14:12 | Link #100 | |
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Red army did liberate China and defended the country against Japanese Invasions. As for Mao's Reign, we are not proud what government has done, same thing as racism in werstern society, it's a shameful past I dont know why people still like to bring it up. Chinese government went through different stages within the history, some good some bad... Also China does have corruption problems, but do you guys know there is special organization in the government to fight corruptions? Government personel caught with bribing can receive capital punishment and life sentence. I remember one of my friends dad became a refugee in US because chinese government are hunting him in China for bribing... Talking about environment issue, who are the people behind all the heavy industrial factories?? |
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