Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 29 Discussion / Poll

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by FerrusManus

That Mika executed the Terra Liberionis guy in cold blood?

and? He was the man who hired the pirates to kill our heroes. Am I suppose to feel bad for him? He got was he deserved.

[DMurphy]

-- Okay, but the thing is, nothing in IBO is really meant to be seen as that black and white.

If we take the most recent episode: Mika and Orga killing an unarmed man after trying to wring money out of him is meant to be seen as a morally wrong act. The entire scene is framed to focus on their victim's terror, to dehumanise the two of them, to convey the message that, actually, this is a fairly sickening act.

But that doesn't mean it exists in a vacuum, either. The dude in question did hire pirates, after all, he did kick off a small war in which several people died -- we're meant to empathise with his terror, and we're meant to see how Tekkadan approaches the situation as predatory rather than just, but we're not meant to go "Oh, what a poor, innocent lamb."

It's not a case of extremes, where you're meant to be able to go 'well, he was right and he was wrong' you know? It's a more complicated situation than that, and IBO's ability to honestly present those kinds of complicated, morally grey, often quite violent and unpleasant situations is the quality that drew me to the series in the first place.

Which is largely why I said before that, while I understand the complaints about episode three, I think they're a little vacuous: Because Orga and Mika really aren't meant to be heroic, morally upright people, and their behaviour isn't backed up by the narrative as being the right thing to do. They're antiheroes at best, bordering on being villain protagonists at times.

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

and? He was the man who hired the pirates to kill our heroes. Am I suppose to feel bad for him? He got was he deserved.

No your not Suppose to ( I don't feel anything ether ) but will Japan make a big deal about like last year ? I think so ( I hope not tho)

Also what DMurphy said^

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

As someone else pointed out, IBO is kind of in the wrong timeslot for a show with its themes.

The thing is, kids love it. I know so many kids from really young to around middle school who love Gundam and IBO. So, in a business perspective, it's also in a really good spot.

Originally Posted by darkone45

No your not Suppose to ( I don't feel anything ether ) but will Japan make a big deal about like last year ? I think so ( I hope not tho)

Just like anywhere else, it really depends on the area and the values of the area, and who would be more likely to make a fuss. For example, the region that I live in would is pretty laid back in really all matters, so I find it very hard to believe they would complain.

However, areas to the north and east that are more traditional? They might. It really all depends.


For me, I had absolutely no problem with the scene and thought it was great. The thing is, this guy decided to hire pirates against a group that no only has a frighting reputation on its own, but also happens to be known to be connected to Teiwaz, a known mafia group. He planned to assassinate a girl who wouldn't speak at his fuction for goodness sake, and then became a total coward and asked everyone to cover for him when things go south. He's from Mars, he should know how things work out in that outer sphere. He made his own choices and when the piper came calling, he still tried to weasel his way out of it, to the point that he was going to "deal" with them some how.

Yeah, he signed his own death warrant.

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Yeah, he signed his own death warrant.

as far as I know his swimming with the fishes :P ( I know that was a very bad pun )

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

For me, I had absolutely no problem with the scene and thought it was great. The thing is, this guy decided to hire pirates against a group that no only has a frighting reputation on its own, but also happens to be known to be connected to Teiwaz, a known mafia group. He planned to assassinate a girl who wouldn't speak at his fuction for goodness sake, and then became a total coward and asked everyone to cover for him when things go south. He's from Mars, he should know how things work out in that outer sphere. He made his own choices and when the piper came calling, he still tried to weasel his way out of it, to the point that he was going to "deal" with them some how.

Yeah, he signed his own death warrant.

My issue is from a narrative perspective in that we're still getting slapstick "evil" business or government official. You can't blame Coral S2 edition for acting like Coral S2 edition, but the writers who made him that way.

Also, that this incident will just be glossed over like the buildup that was ultimately wasted in the finale of season 1 for a "happy" ending that only serves our main characters.

[wissenschaft]

I didn't find anything scandalous about his death. In fact, I was expecting it from the moment he was introduced and shown to be scheming against Kurdelia. Our princess has angels of death guarding her. He was a fool in a long line of fools that have been crushed by our heroes.

The only controversy is whether this is an appropriate show for kids. All things considered, this is rather tame. Gundam 0079 and especially Zeta are much more messed up stories for kids to watch.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

My issue is from a narrative perspective in that we're still getting slapstick "evil" business or government official. You can't blame Coral S2 edition for acting like Coral S2 edition, but the writers who made him that way.

Also, that this incident will just be glossed over like the buildup that was ultimately wasted in the finale of season 1 for a "happy" ending that only serves our main characters.

I think that all depends on your own perspective and what you were looking for in the series and in those scenes. To mean the scene is just an example reminding the audience that Tekkadan maybe a bunch of kids, but they are perfectly comfortable with killing when they are threatened. I had no more problem with them here, than I did with them in the end of season 1.

To me, the build up was fine for what it was supposed to do. I honestly don't need another "killing is wrong and the kids must suffer from their mistakes to learn this the error of their ways" series. Gundam has enough protagonists who don't like or refuse to kill. If anything, scenes like this one are actually what makes this series one of, if not my favorite of the Gundam franchise thus far.

[wissenschaft]

Besides, its not like Tekkadan is killing innocent people. They only kill those who have used lethal force against them.4

On an unrelated note, I really like the Gjallarhorn officer thats worked with our heroes being able to show off some moves. I hope we see him again. Anyone catch his name?

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

My issue is from a narrative perspective in that we're still getting slapstick "evil" business or government official. You can't blame Coral S2 edition for acting like Coral S2 edition, but the writers who made him that way.

Also, that this incident will just be glossed over like the buildup that was ultimately wasted in the finale of season 1 for a "happy" ending that only serves our main characters.

As far as I know Ein wasn't slapstick "evil" he had a back story and everything now while I disliked Ein there were those who did like him

also Crank anyone ? pretty sure that guy isn't slapstick "evil" or how you put it.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I think that all depends on your own perspective and what you were looking for in the series and in those scenes. To mean the scene is just an example reminding the audience that Tekkadan maybe a bunch of kids, but they are perfectly comfortable with killing when they are threatened. I had no more problem with them here, than I did with them in the end of season 1.

To me, the build up was fine for what it was supposed to do. I honestly don't need another "killing is wrong and the kids must suffer from their mistakes to learn this the error of their ways" series. Gundam has enough protagonists who don't like or refuse to kill. If anything, scenes like this one are actually what makes this series one of, if not my favorite of the Gundam franchise thus far.

No, it definitely lies in the narrative. The reason why the ending of the first season happened the way it did was because the director wanted a happy ending no matter what, having all the buildup for a more somber ending scrapped at the last minute. Now, what's season 2's deal going to be? Is it going to pickup the original direction and fulfill it this time, or go in a completely different direction in a way that "panders" more to viewers. That's what I'm most anxious about, and that again more "meddling" may happen during production, leaving speculating based off the show alone futile, because what's been established can be easily retconned, with resulting consequential damage to the story.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

No, it definitely lies in the narrative. The reason why the ending of the first season happened the way it did was because the director wanted a happy ending no matter what, having all the buildup for a more somber ending scrapped at the last minute. Now, what's season 2's deal going to be? Is it going to pickup the original direction and fulfill it this time, or go in a completely different direction in a way that "panders" more to viewers. That's what I'm most anxious about, and that again more "meddling" may happen during production, leaving speculating based off the show alone futile, because what's been established can be easily retconned, with resulting consequential damage to the story.

To me, the scenes did build to that ending. Tekkadan had some moments of doubt but ultimately were determined to finish what they started, and they were able to beat the odds. You see it as "buildup for a more somber ending" but I see it more as knowing the odds and defying them.
You see it as "pandering" but I see it as as satisfying and different from the usual script. You expected the build up to lead to a somber ending simply because that's what's usually done in these kind of series. But in the end it decided to change from that path and there is nothing wrong with that, simply because it's not the ending you expected to happen from what you saw. I just think we both expected different things, and so one of us was bound to be disappointed.

[NBG]

The reginlaze looks better than the graze to me. Anyone else?

[darkone45]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

To me, the scenes did build to that ending. Tekkadan had some moments of doubt but ultimately were determined to finish what they started, and they were able to beat the odds. You see it as "buildup for a more somber ending" but I see it more as knowing the odds and defying them.
You see it as "pandering" but I see it as as satisfying and different from the usual script. You expected the build up to lead to a somber ending simply because that's what's usually done in these kind of series. But in the end it decided to change from that path and there is nothing wrong with that, simply because it's not the ending you expected to happen from what you saw. I just think we both expected different things, and so one of us was bound to be disappointed.

^ this

@Kurohane if you feel so strong about it maybe its time to just got off the boat ?

[Router25]

An obligatory "This is no Graze, boy!" scene, a connection that a half-metal mine is equal to an MS graveyard, and Mika using his sling as a bigger food pocket and gun holster. Just pointing out what I found fun in this episode. Also, looks like another Kutan booster for Barbatos.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

No, it definitely lies in the narrative. The reason why the ending of the first season happened the way it did was because the director wanted a happy ending no matter what, having all the buildup for a more somber ending scrapped at the last minute. Now, what's season 2's deal going to be? Is it going to pickup the original direction and fulfill it this time, or go in a completely different direction in a way that "panders" more to viewers. That's what I'm most anxious about, and that again more "meddling" may happen during production, leaving speculating based off the show alone futile, because what's been established can be easily retconned, with resulting consequential damage to the story.

I don’t know about the “last minute”-thing. First, the way anime industry works, you can’t just slap together an episode in a week or a month just because the director changes his/her mind at the last minute. The cases of God Eater & the recent Regalia’s delay has proven that it took a considerable amount of effort and time to make an episode, let alone an episode that has handdrawn mecha battles in it (Unless we’re talking about Gundam SEED Destiny that has a continent-worth of stock footage, reused animation & flashbacks, which IBO doesn’t). So, I think the decision to have a happy ending in season 1 was already made far earlier. Probably during the scripting, or early in the first cour when Bandai greenlit the 2nd season and the writer-director realized they wanted to do more with the characters in season 2. Second, the original “somber ending” is probably in preparation if they don’t get additional season, but now that they got the chance to tell a more thorough story, they changed season 1's ending to a happier one to plant the seeds for next season. But I generally don't have a problem with a happy ending for Tekkadan as long as it's well-written & well-executed.

Also, it’s well-known that TV series of a big franchise such as Gundams have many limitations and interference by studio & sponsors and not to mention censorship and studio's cancellation-axe in case the series is not well-received midway during the airing. So it’s nothing new. And yet, the Gundam franchise is able to produce good & compelling TV series many times in which the writers & directors still managed to, at the very least, put their own stamp on their shows.

Originally Posted by Router25

An obligatory "This is no Graze, boy!" scene,...

I noticed that too, but the way Julieta uttered it is different from Ral (unlike Heine from Destiny), so I don't really bother .

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I don’t know about the “last minute”-thing. First, the way anime industry works, you can’t just slap together an episode in a week or a month just because the director changes his/her mind at the last minute. The cases of God Eater & the recent Regalia’s delay has proven that it took a considerable amount of effort and time to make an episode, let alone an episode that has handdrawn mecha battles in it (Unless we’re talking about Gundam SEED Destiny that has a continent-worth of stock footage, reused animation & flashbacks, which IBO doesn’t). So, I think the decision to have a happy ending in season 1 was already made far earlier. Probably during the scripting, or early in the first cour when Bandai greenlit the 2nd season and the writer-director realized they wanted to do more with the characters in season 2. Second, the original “somber ending” is probably in preparation if they don’t get additional season, but now that they got the chance to tell a more thorough story, they changed season 1's ending to a happier one to plant the seeds for next season. But I generally don't have a problem with a happy ending for Tekkadan as long as it's well-written & well-executed.

Also, it’s well-known that TV series of a big franchise such as Gundams have many limitations and interference by studio & sponsors and not to mention censorship and studio's cancellation-axe in case the series is not well-received midway during the airing. So it’s nothing new. And yet, the Gundam franchise is able to produce good & compelling TV series many times in which the writers & directors still managed to, at the very least, put their own stamp on their shows.

Here's a part of an interview with Mari Okada on IBO that Karice translated:

Turning now to Orga, can you tell us about him?

Okada: He really respects Mikazuki’s genius, but Mika leaves everything up to Orga’s judgment. That’s the pressure he feels. Furthermore, Mikazuki gradually gains more and more clarity in battle, so Orga feels as though he himself will be killed, devoured if he shows any weakness… He carries that tension with him all the time. A story centred around someone like Orga might actually be really rare. The commander doesn’t actually pilot a mobile suit, so ‘how can we show that he is cool’? That’s something that we also discussed. And Orga’s judgment starts to show some cracks after Biscuit’s death—he starts down a somewhat more dangerous path. But the director told me that he wanted the finale to have something of a happy note, and I was like “what’s to be done with that?”

Are you talking about ending of the last episode (“Tekkadan”)?

Okada: Yes. I was really wondering how I could bring them to such an ending from that point. That part gave me a lot of anxiety.

So the change was indeed sudden and during the production of the final episodes.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by darkone45

So I just realized something.......Japan is gonna make another big deal about this episode do guys think we might get ANN news on this by Monday ?

complaints about violent scenes is not exclusive to anime, even series as Games of Thrones suffer so, while the channel not care, there no problem if any group claims in any forum, since the series has popularity, in addition, they are japaneses, they were not christianized, so they have a different standard of the West, just compare this gundam passes 17:00 with the programs that the West (in my country, even Jackie Chan comedy films are censored in this schedule) transmit the same schedule.

ps: Mikazuki attack "cowardly" Carta is still the scene where he was most cruel in my opinion.

ps2: is incredible that IBO received only one criticism being that I can think of several violent moments.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Here's a part of an interview with Mari Okada on IBO that Karice translated:

So the change was indeed sudden and during the production of the final episodes.

Remember, I was the one who first brought that article into IBO thread after Karice posted it in Okada thread . So I have read it several times myself. There’s nothing in those interview indicating the sudden-ness of that “happy-end” choice (anyone who know Japanese and can translate the said interview is welcomed to correct me on that). For all we know, that could take place during the scripting in which Nagai wanted a happy ending after Biscuit’s death. And Orga’s decision indeed claimed many of Tekkadan members' lives. So I don’t see it as that big of a tonal shift from what was foreshadowed. Lesser in impact? Sure. But a complete departure from what the story is building? Not really.

And like I said, the way the anime industry works, you can’t afford to change your mind and mess with the episode at the last minute without airing delay (unless it’s SEED Destiny, again). And as we all have experienced, IBO has no such delay and the animation of the last episodes remain superb.

[DragoonKain3]

Needs more mask guy. To be honest, Mask Guy vs Mcgillis is the one thing I'm looking forward every episode.

I wonder if Orga can ever really turn away from Tekkadan. He keeps claiming that he's taking the shortest route to escape this kind of life, but its episodes like this makes me think that being a mafia boss is what Orga already is. If only to see if he actually succeeds is what makes Orga as a character so compelling.