[Manga] Neji's power or Sasuke's wrath?

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't believe that Sasuke's is able to find out the little blind spot of the Byakugan or to use this fact for that matters

Neji's supposed 'weakness' is tremendously overplayed. The guy can see almost completely around him, but for some reason, people obsess over the fact that he has a small region he can't see, despite the fact that 99% of the other ninjas in Naruto have a far more exclusive range of vision.

[Shrimpusmaximus]

Well this has become a 3 way battle, but that makes it more interesting. I will outline the many sasukes and then adress how his abilities are a problem or a bonus to the two challengers.

Sasuke: Saauke has had so many incarnations in the storyline that its really hard to judge. He has 2 dot sharingan and 3 dot sharingan and CS1 and CS2, he has lee speed and not. At the time of the forest of death he was CS1 2 dot sharingan, no lee speed (NLS), at the time of fighting uber naruto he was CS2, 3 dot sharigan LS. I am pretty sure that Neji sits between these two points.

Neji: Kakashi says that in terms of insight the Byakugan surpasses the sharingan, and Neji is fast. Perhaps even as fast as lee, and even if he isn't his composite speed is. Like the sharingan he sees what your doing and reacts before the move is launched in earnest. He also enters into a super insight trance of some sort when he does the 64 hands attack, how else could he attack someone, not only a retard like naruto, some 120 times before the react. Both he and sasuke would be on even grounds in terms of insight as the hypnotic ability of the sharingan is what makes it feared as opposed to the byakugan, and sasuke doesn't do that. Kaiten parries so the chidori would bounce and be wasted, like when itachi grabbed sasukes arm, unless there was CS2 power behind it. So I say that without Sharingan 2, sasuske would lose and without CS2 sasuke would lose and since he got both near the same time then at alll times short of the last few chapters Neji beats sasuke.

Gaara: Wow this is tough, see against gaara you composite speed means jack. The sharingan can't track the ebb and flow of chakra and most of Gaaras attacks are willed into existance. One seal is often all it takes for even the most powerful attacks. So sasuke wouldl have to deal with the attacks with lee speed. However from the fight with Kimimaro we know that he is at least lee speed and still got caught in most of Gaara's attacks. I thinks then if Gaara got rolling he would crush sasuke. However there is a hole in that sasuke is faster than the sand shield so he could slip in and attack gaara directly, however the power of chidori lies in the speed of the thrust and against the uber armored gaara I'm not sure a stop thurst like the one he dealt to naruto would have the same devastating effect. Remember even with the charge sasukes arem wasn't long enough to hurt gaara all that badly in the Chuunin exam. If gaara put up the Shukaku doll sasuke would be forced to go through it or around it and if he went around he loses the speed of the charge. I say gaara vs. final sasuke is a roll of the dice with favor going to Gaara.

[hiko]

I've enjoyed reading all the arguments regarding the Neji/Gaara/Sasuke/Naruto power quadrangle so far and hope there's life in the debate yet, but I think people are making the whole issue seem a lot more complex than it actually is. Naruto and Sasuke are the main players and we know Naruto has the biggest uber power-up device out of all the nins - he just hasn't unleashed enough of Kyuubi power to blow CL2 Sasuke away yet. Gaara we've most likely seen how "freak-powered" he can go, whereas for Sasuke all we've seen is a little taster. But then we know the CL2 state is far more temporary than Gaara and Naruto's anyway. Poor old Neji has bugger all though. Why wasn't Oro ever interested in obtaining a Byukagen prodigy for his village damn it!

Sasuke went freak and retained enough composure to assure his superior technique got the victory over Naruto. But would he have stood a chance against Gamabunta in that state? The fights in Naruto rely on so many incidental coincidences and fateful turn of events that you just end up getting a headache if you logically try to plot the course of a fight.

It's not like CL2 Sasuke had an epic scrap with Kyuubi Naruto anyway, both just charged each other and let fate decide the winner, it was a really shite conclusion to an otherwise awesome fight.

I prefer to just focus on the basics and that is both Gaara and Neji calmly demonstrated far more skill and power than either Naruto or Sasuke ever have without freak power ups, so generally speaking I reckon they're the strongest Genins in Naruto so far. But I will be disappointed if Naruto and Sasuke are not the strongest (even in general) 3 yrs from now. They have the best possible teachers and immense Chakra pools to draw from.

Neji vs CL2 Sasuke would be a foregone conclusion considering he barely defeated Kidoumaru and it's probably safe to say CL2 Sasuke is the strongest CL2 user bar Kimimaro.

When you factor in freak-ups then Naruto is most likely strongest because he's drawing on the biggest baddest demon we've seen to date. Gaara is second because Shukaku is even harder to deal with than Bunta, and CL2 Sasuke brings up the rear. From all i've seen of CL2 it doesn't seem useful against giants unless the user can get some summons on the go. So far Sasuke has learned none, so technically you can claim that Naruto, Gaara and Chouji could easily beat him. Still, it's clearly only a matter of time before he becomes a snake master.

No fight between major characters will ever end as quickly as the people saying Sasuke could simply chidori Gaara before he has chance to convert some sand so I see that as a completely pointless argument - no matter how true it may be.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Genei Killua

Neji's supposed 'weakness' is tremendously overplayed. The guy can see almost completely around him, but for some reason, people obsess over the fact that he has a small region he can't see, despite the fact that 99% of the other ninjas in Naruto have a far more exclusive range of vision.

I agree, having 358 degree view is still incredible, however, Kidoumaru was a formidable opponent in stealth and tactics.
And since he's the only one who gave Neji shit about his weakness, im willing to accept the overplaying.

[kakash1]

Someone said that sasuke will own when he gets back from Oro's place... First off, Sasuke might not get back since Oro just wants his body and second off, Sasuke isnt the only one training.. In a lot of the manga chapters, we see neji training and Neji doesnt joke around when he trains. So, i still think this :

Sasuke < Neji
Sasuke CL1 < Neji
Sasuke CL2 > Neji

Even AFTER he gets back from Oro


BTW i KNOW sasuke won't die from oro.

[UserName]

Why do people seem to believe that Sasuke is as strong as Kimimaro?

It was mentioned he was the strongest of the Sound 5. Also if Kimi were to have lived and became well Oro would've ditched Sasuke. Oro even mentioned somethign about their seals being as strong, but comparing their base form well Kimimaro is leagues ahead, he didn't even have to pull out a strong dance at all to kill 1000 Kyuubi Naruto though he was saved in the last minute... if they were to have a fight without interuptions the fight would've been quick.

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by UserName

Why do people seem to believe that Sasuke is as strong as Kimimaro?

It was mentioned he was the strongest of the Sound 5. Also if Kimi were to have lived and became well Oro would've ditched Sasuke. Oro even mentioned somethign about their seals being as strong, but comparing their base form well Kimimaro is leagues ahead, he didn't even have to pull out a strong dance at all to kill 1000 Kyuubi Naruto though he was saved in the last minute... if they were to have a fight without interuptions the fight would've been quick.

People think this because their cursed seals are about the same strength. What they fail to realise is that the cursed seals merely amplifies the innate power of the individual. Konohamaru cursed level 2 wouldn't be that strong.

[nh1]

Originally Posted by Sol//Aris

As for Gaara, he wasn't actually able to crush Kimi with his sand. Kimi formed a shell of bone under his skin to avoid getting crushed. Imho, this means that although the sand is nearly impossible to avoid, it's not as powerfull as we all initially thought.

Or it proves that Kimi had a wonderful bloodline that made him invulnerable towards physical attacks, like Orochimaru said.
Sasuke might be able to dodge a desert tsunami, but it seems higly unlikely.

[Genei Killua]

Originally Posted by nh1

Or it proves that Kimi had a wonderful bloodline that made him invulnerable towards physical attacks, like Orochimaru said.

Agreed. Kimimaro himself said that Gaara's mere desert coffin had great pressure, and only with his bloodline and in curse seal level 1 could he survive it. And it took his cs level 2 form to deal with the desert requiem. To put it simply, there's no way Sasuke could withstand such an attack. He'd have to avoid it in order to survive.

[Shrimpusmaximus]

and sasuke avoiding the moves is very difficult as Kimimaro is as fast as lee who is as fast as sasuke, so the obvious conclusion can be reached. Note that we are talking CS0 kimimaro here, until proven otherwise we must assume that the earth seall and the heaven seals give equivvalent chakra bonuses.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus

and sasuke avoiding the moves is very difficult as Kimimaro is as fast as lee who is as fast as sasuke, so the obvious conclusion can be reached. Note that we are talking CS0 kimimaro here, until proven otherwise we must assume that the earth seall and the heaven seals give equivvalent chakra bonuses.

And according to Kiba and Jiroubu CSLV2 increases your strength ten fold. That would mean that IF CSLV2 Sasuke was equal in power to Kyuubi Naruto, the Nine tails chakra boosts Naruto to about 10X his original strength when berserk, which is definitely not a significant percentage of Kyuubi's strength. That would not even be 1% of Kyuubi's maximum chakra. That one's for everyone who said Naruto was using 50% or more of Kyuubi's chakra.

[wb_hicks]

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

And according to Kiba and Jiroubu CSLV2 increases your strength ten fold. That would mean that IF CSLV2 Sasuke was equal in power to Kyuubi Naruto, the Nine tails chakra boosts Naruto to about 10X his original strength when berserk, which is definitely not a significant percentage of Kyuubi's strength. That would not even be 1% of Kyuubi's maximum chakra. That one's for everyone who said Naruto was using 50% or more of Kyuubi's chakra.

thats somewhat true but you still can say what percentage naruto uses because it will always be unknown. but if the cs2 makes one ten times as strong then since sasuke was pretty much fresh when they fought would mean that even after naruto chased down the sound, had his charka sucked out , took a soldier pill to try to replace the drain charka, made countless shadow clones, have a short fight, then chase sasuke down, and then fight sasuke equally. i would say kyubi was making him more then 10x stronger then what he was.
also kimi isnt as fast as sasuke. in the term of speed sasuke has him out matched. because he was able to avoid lee's attacks doesnt mean kimi is on their lvl of speed. lee isnt even on his former lvl of speed because he is still healing from his operation. garaa pointed that out by saying that lee was much faster when they fought. i even think that if naruto and kimi fight would of continued (meaning that sasuke never came out of the barrel) it would be interesting to see how the fight would of gone if naruto reach the lvl he did when he fought sasuke the only difference is naruto would of had killing intent towards kimi.

[Shrimpusmaximus]

I would like to point out that even though lee lost some speed from his operation he was still operating at a high effiecieny. Kimimaro is fast, I don't think that it is rational to think otherwise. He faces off against some 200 odd kyuubi shadow clones (they all had teeth eyes and stripes) which are faster and stronger than normal naruto, and was never touched. In the battle on the rooftop, sasuke who has lee speed, and was probably missing a similar portion as current lee or none at all had a blow landed on him by non kyuubi naruto. This alone makes kimimaro's base form 'wiggy' fast, faster than sasuke definitely. See there is this thing called composite speed that sasuke enjoys, he has his actual speed, how fast he moves, and then he has the sharingans predictive ability. Together they give him speed to match incarnate naruto, who is by all standards really freaky fast. Kimimaro has no sharingan or predictive ability and instead is just fast. Looking over thins evidence it is very hard for me to believe that sasukes base speed, the only speed that matteres against gaara is significantly greater than that of kimimaro, significant enough to have provided different outcomes to the various attacks Gaara performed. Plus there is a large chance that Gaara is better at controling his sand and thus it moves quicker than in the chuunin exam.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by wb_hicks

thats somewhat true but you still can say what percentage naruto uses because it will always be unknown. but if the cs2 makes one ten times as strong then since sasuke was pretty much fresh when they fought would mean that even after naruto chased down the sound, had his charka sucked out , took a soldier pill to try to replace the drain charka, made countless shadow clones, have a short fight, then chase sasuke down, and then fight sasuke equally. i would say kyubi was making him more then 10x stronger then what he was.
also kimi isnt as fast as sasuke. in the term of speed sasuke has him out matched. because he was able to avoid lee's attacks doesnt mean kimi is on their lvl of speed. lee isnt even on his former lvl of speed because he is still healing from his operation. garaa pointed that out by saying that lee was much faster when they fought. i even think that if naruto and kimi fight would of continued (meaning that sasuke never came out of the barrel) it would be interesting to see how the fight would of gone if naruto reach the lvl he did when he fought sasuke the only difference is naruto would of had killing intent towards kimi.

When I say stronger i mean it tops his maximum level giving him a boost 10x his maximum strength which would happen regardless of how tired he was from his past journey since it is Kyuubi's chakra. But, its true that there is know proper measurement for how much strength he is given or can get. The fact that Sasuke could even compete strength wise with Kyuubi Naruto tells me that Naruto isn't given much more strength from Kyuubi than CSLV2 gives Sasuke. Kimimaro probably isn't as fast as Lee. Lee even notes that his flexibilty and precision is whats making him so hard to hit. If Kimimaro could move as fast as Lee at top speed he would have had an easier time closing in on Gaara the same way Lee and Sasuke did, although that would make for too predictable a fight. As anyone else noticed if Sasuke is even using Lee's taijutsu anymore? I think the trademark of the taijutsu is being able to seemingly teleport your body from the speed. You don't see any of that in episode 106 although Sasuke's combat skills are tough. He does use the Lion Combo in his arsenal later but is he portrayed in the manga with that classic speed? Or is he portrayed as just fast some of the time?

[wb_hicks]

if being bed riden has slowed sasuke down it wouldnt be as slowed down lee would be. granted im not saying kimi is slow thats far from it. he shows he is very well rounded with by strength speed and experience. but i dont think his speed is on par with sasuke. and seeing how lee opened the 1st gate and gained alot of speed and didnt even affect kimi shows that you need more then just speed to defeat him.

and ShurikenJay i agree with everything you just said

[Shrimpusmaximus]

well I always assumed that that flexibility that Kimimaro has is part of his speed. But now that you point it out his flexibility could be creating a composite speed. But still, the man has to be fast. I mean he is the uber genius of the Kaguya clan, and you get the feeling that a jounin would fall to him, given the reaction the Oro and kabuto had. All the geniuses show varying levels of speed, but they are all really really fast.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Kimimaro is definitely fast and by no means slow. Some ninja are faster than others its just an incredible raw speed can be the difference in a fight. Sasuke was already fast and quite good with taijutsu before he got beat up by Lee, Lee was simply ALOT faster and better with taijutsu. I think Kimimaro is fast enough that he can read an opponents movements well and quickly dodge them with an above average flexibility (do to being able to alter the density of his bones). Once Lee used the drunken fist his moves became unpredictable and he could not keep up. I don't think everyone is fast enough to overcome Gaara's sand with pure speed so Kishimoto didn't want to make another character that could simply close in and attack Gaara diectly because they were so fast.

He wanted a character that had to outmanuver the sand in a creative way and use other skills to deal with the sand. Kimimaro is probably alot like Neji in that it has been indicated that they have immense raw speed but we know they are fast becuase of how they handle quick opponents. With that said I don't think Sasuke would have a good time dodging Gaara's attacks like he did in the Chunin exam. Gaara has just become more and more creative. Gaara might allow Sasuke to land a hit on him but actually allow him to hit a shell of him like he did to Lee and make it explode and trap him with sand. Then pull him into a quick sand pit. Anyway it goes Kishimoto would not make an interesting fight end with Sasuke hitting Gaara with a Chidori and point blank range even if it looks like he could.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by UserName

... Of course they have speed. I'm talking about the sand attacks in general. The ones like simply grabbing an opponent, he did it to Lee without moving his hands while Lee was in a sprint, he also did it to Kimi, both of them caught of gaurd the one he did to kimi was followed up by a desert coffin.

No that never happened, onxe Lee (or Sasuke in the next fight) was running at high speed, Gaara's sand couldn't keep up with the speed.
Kimimaro as well was fast enough to avoid the sand attack during a while even if his speed wasn't so far above that the attacks were basically useless like against Lee or Sasuke.

As how Gaara sent the sand between Lee and Kimi a few times or how he caught a hold of them.

Once again no, all these attacks were avoided when his opponents were paying attention to them and that includes Kimimaro who wasn't as fast as Lee/Sasuke.
Gaara caught Kimi from below because Kimi thought that Gaara could only handle the sand from his bottle.
As a matter of fact he thought that Gaara's attacks were boring, he had no problem to avoid them.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying... Look. If you have good vision and notice things such as the starting of the hand, you will be able to predict where it is going and at what power depending on the quality of your vision. Simple by seeing it starting ot move. Just like if someone is oitning a gun at you and he pulls the trigger you can tell where it's going and when it's going to start, if you see him move his fingers back a tiny bit you may be able to tell that he's not going to do it. Basically reading the opponnent.

I perfectly understand what you say and it's completely wrong plain and simple.
To have a good vision doesn't allow you to predict anything or like I say they all could do that in their smaleer field of vision.
To see something doesn't mean that you're able to predict how this thing will act next.
If you see someone pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger you can know that it will shot, not predict the pattern of the bullet.

That's can be learned through fighting experience like Kimi, not because you can see at 359°.

What does the shairngna have to do with this? They both predict moves is what I said in relation to the 2. We've seen Hinata see something as it was right in front of her that a normal person won't notice. We've also seen Neji easily reading HInata by noticing slight changes. (well i won't call it slight but you get what I mean...)

No, it's a stated and showed capacity of the Sharingan, whereas it wasn't even hinted that the Byakugan could do that.
And what did Hinata saw? More than that what the little psychology stuff that Neji did on Hinata has to do with predicting ability?

Then Neji must have a huge amount of chakra. Or as I believe, he's very efficient with his chakra useage so he will be able to use it for a long time. I never siad anything about the kaiten's chakra bieng small, rather that he can use it for a long time.

Neji has probably a more than fair amount of chakra and he's basically among the best chakra user oin the Narutoniverse even than most Jounin I would say.
Still during his 2 fights, we saw him using the Kaiten 2 times in both these fight.
During the 2nd he also used his chakra to cover everything around him in order to be able to sense the arrow and then was running low on chakra.
So no Neji can't overuse the Kaiten like that.

If he sees a shuriken coming at him, he should be able to knock it away.

Except that the Shuriken wouldn't come at him but to the point that he will reach latter and especially if Neji is already avoiding Katon/wire/etc.

And having the affects of the curse seal.

No when he wasn't using the curse seal.
It was precisely stated that Sasuke stopped to use it because the price in chakra was too much.

If that's the case in avoiding. Then he will be avoiding till he tires out. But then if he gets in close combat, there's the hakke to worry about which is unavoidable still and it is known as the unavoidable move.

What? The 64 hands of Hakke is a Taijutsu move consisting at 64 high speed strikes aiming for the Tenketsu.
There is no unavoidable move, if Neji tries that on an opponent who moves faster than he's able to strike then he will never hit.

Sasuke who's not only faster but who can predict where Neji will strike in advance could avoid the 64 hands of Hakke without too much problem, the only move which would put him in trouble is the Kaiten that he can't predict given that it's merely chakra leaving the body at once.

[nh1]

Though he always did beat Lee, somehow, and I wouldn't consider the Kaiten as an offensive move. Also, there is something to the 64 Hands of Hakke, or there would be no need for the field of Hakke.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by nh1

Though he always did beat Lee, somehow, and I wouldn't consider the Kaiten as an offensive move. Also, there is something to the 64 Hands of Hakke, or there would be no need for the field of Hakke.

I agree. I see what Hunter is saying that Sasuke can predict moves with sharingan and therefore avoid "simple" strikes but 64 hands of Hakke is reminiscent of Jet Li's character in the movie Hero who's technique was said to be unbeatable within a certain range. So it could go either way. We know for a fact that even with Sasuke's ability to anticipate complete attacks as they form he can still get hit by them, even with a good amount of distance(Naruto nicked his face). Its plausible to say that Neji's Hakke would negate Sasuke's new ability.