Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Master Chibi]

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

[cbatty]

@Master Chibi: please give it a rest... It is fine to share an opinion, but to do so in such a negative and unconstructive way doesn't add to the discussion, and it certainly doesn't generate sympathy to your point of view.

Happy Christmas.

[C.A.]

There's always an ignore option, just leave him alone.

Its easy to get bothered by individuals who are negative with what they're seeing. But remember the polls are there to tell you that the show is good, the problem lies only with the negative audience.

Alot of people who like the show get affected by negative people and have a hard time enjoying the show as they feel irritated and annoyed. If that happens, just look at the poll results and you should know that the majority is enjoying as much as you are.

Anyway this episode really showed us the strength of the bond between the great couple.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

MC are talking about the Drama Club take 1 or Drama Club take 2? Because if you are talking about take 2 yes it did fail but there is something to be said about what she tried to do the second time around. I agree it was failure no one showed up so it was shut down. But this time she tried to get the drama club off the ground by herself with no help and even though it failed it was progress from the first time where all she did was brood over.

I tend to think the first time around was not really about the drama club its self. The first time around it allowed Nagisa to make friends even though it was with the help of Tomoya. Granted she did get to go up on stage and preform so that is also a triumph on her part. I dunno i tend to see two sides of a coin as I think certain scenes require you to look more at the not so obvious result.

oh well just my two cents.

[Haru~]

Better come and say Merry Christmas to all.
And brothers, you're feeding a troll.
I agree to C.A. Don't put fuel to the fire.
And he's always like that. He will make statements just to make people who love the show suffer like he is right now.
And also expect a lot of him, ranting after the show's done. Arguing every second of it.
It's his own opinion. Since we are not the one who's irritated while watching the show, he is.
I enjoyed it. And he's disappointed and wasted time. Who do you think got the better?

And about the episode,
I love the expression of Tomoya after he proposed. Maybe he thought, he will surprise Nagisa with his sudden proposal, instead not only him but also us surprised by her quick "YES".
Again, Merry Christmas. Peace.
And I forgot, it's Nagisa's birthday.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

Ugh sorry for being confusing, what I meant to say is, being predictable = bad if the execution is bad. Nagisa = predictable but the execution of the predictable events were well done and enjoyable. Well that's all a matter of opinion but still...

Also I was refering to drama club take 1. Nagisa had Tomoya, Sunohara, Kyou, Ryou, Kotomi, support from Tomoyo, and the choir club too. Although her second attempt to create a drama club failed, it's the way she made an effort that showed development on her part, as well as how last year's successful drama club effected her.

We're probably both set in our views though haha. There's probably no way to convince a huge fanboy like me that Nagisa is bad. But for some reason when I see bad criticism about her, I feel irked and jump to the defense of the character I like x.x

[Master Chibi]

Ok first, I'm not a god damn troll.

I don't argue for the sake of arguing, and I don't do it to piss anyone off. I'm just extremely blunt and vocal about my opinion, plain and simple. I didn't dismiss anyone else's opionion either. I don't run into the new episode thread every week going 'HEY I CAN'T WAIT TO DISAGREE WITH EVERYONE'.

@ cbatty:

@Master Chibi: please give it a rest... It is fine to share an opinion, but to do so in such a negative and unconstructive way doesn't add to the discussion, and it certainly doesn't generate sympathy to your point of view.

Who said I wanted people to be sympathetic to my point of view? Do I look like a politician to you? Do you think I have some ulterior motive to coming out and flat out saying what I do outside of well, just saying it?

I don't man. I'm just expressing my views the same way all of you are. You are free to ignore it, because hey, sometimes I mistakenly rub people the wrong way. I apologize for it, but come next week a new group of people are at my neck again because I just didn't outright 'rate the episode 10/10' or what have you.

Happy Christmas.

Same to you.

Look, I'll bow out of this conversation in regards to me and just apologize for coming off in a harsh tone again.

Just please trust me, I'm really not a troll.

:\

[MeoTwister5]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, no matter how negative or harsh the3y may be.

It's just that it's easier to understand if they'd explain better the rationale behind their view.

Much like the time I got riled on by people for saying that Evangelion is a pile of trash, but that's an issue for elsewhere.

[-Sho-]

Yeah it was a great episode ! What with tomoya's father ? Poor tomoya , he lost the job .
Great scene Tomoya X Nagisa ! He will marry her yeah !

[Momosan]

Spoiler for Off Topic:

Slightly off topic, but nobody should be angry with anyone for bringing a differing opinion to a discussion. Sure, Chibi may be a little abrasive with his presentation, but that's probably because he is either relatively passionate about the show or the scenario. While I may not agree with people who are in love with every episode of Clannad, I would never consider putting them on ignore for having a different opinion. Same goes for people who dislike what I like. As long as Chibi provides accurate information to support his ideas, then I'm all for his or anyone's opinions to be presented. Putting someone on ignore for rationally arguing against you is just a huge sign of immaturity. Hopefully people can acknowledge that fact and work on improving their own tolerance.

Back on topic. Obviously, I like the show. I think the animation is excellent and the stories presented are generally better than anything I'll find anywhere else. The problem for me lies in the fact I feel like the show apex'd at episode 9. The reason I continue to watch this show is that it actually made me cry during the Fuuko arc. I'm not a very emotional person, so to me it's a sign that this show CAN do great things.

Unfortunately, for me at least, all the best parts were created by the supporting characters. The only supporting character I've enjoyed in After Story has been Mei since Nagisa's parents seem much more toned down than they were in the previous season.

I had assumed Tomoya would be the redeeming factor of After Story, but he seems to have lost confidence in what kind of person he is. Tomoya used to help people such as Fuuko and Kotomi without any inspirational reason necessary. His proactive nature kept things moving and the plot had difficulty staying stale as Tomoya was constantly out doing something. Enter Afterstory and Tomoya (and might I add nearly every other character) seems to be much more detached from life than they used to be. In the Mei Arc Tomoya did nothing helpful. Well, I guess some sadists might consider deceiving and ultimately brawling with your best friend to be helpful, but I don't. In the gang Arc Tomoya once again did nothing until he ended up having to fight someone. He wasn't really proactively doing anything, just when the time called he kinda pops up to throw some fists. In this last arc we've seen he's gotten a job and uncharacteristically doubted himself the entire time. It all ends with his inability to cope with a person who he supposedly has already written off as a waste.

The Tomoya who would stay up all night carving starfish or spend his entire savings/time to recreate a beautiful memory for a confused friend has been replaced by a pugilistic self-defeating psychopath who is latching onto whatever he can to try and anchor himself. Perhaps it's just me, but there has been no plot device to explain this change. I find myself wondering what happened every episode as he steps more and more out of character.

Spoiler for To Chibi:

Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

Edit: tags added to try and reduce post length so it wasn't so daunting to read.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Momosan

Spoiler for To Chibi:

Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

Spoiler for I think:

I love you, because I have to agree with that 100%.

I have to chime in and say it's ironic that the real couple of this show, the characters who I thought would be the real meat and potatoes of this series (and who I've been led to believe will shower me with such an ending that I'll be happy to accept) end up representing the most boring arc of both seasons.

I mean Nagia's 'sickness' still reeks of a plot device, a convienent way for them to garner sympathy for her (and yet I feel none), and yet said Fuuko arc did much more to make me teary eyed and compassionate about the entire situation going on.

I'm usually the one who usually pushes the notion that you can do more with a couple in a romantic series when they're in an established relationship then waiting until the end of the series to hook them up, because you can take their personalities and weave them amongst situations where they come to learn more and more of each other.

This entire arc of the two of them being together has proven me completely wrong. Go figure.

[Ottocycle]

@Momosan:
I think that you have a different perspective on the way you see Tomoya as compared to mine. How I see it was that in the first series, everything in Tomoya's life in and out of school revolved around family(including Nagisa's), friends and himself. Everything that Tomoya did in the School Life arc had little repercussions outside of that tiny little circle, while being really effective for the concerned parties within. Tomoya was able to bring happiness to Fuuko and her sister because he was able to flex his meddling abilities to the maximum without fear of repercussion(Koumura was like a friend to him). Likewise, he did the same for Kotomi because he was able to fully do on his own what he saw fit to wake Kotomi up from her nightmares of the past.

But when the series came to After Story, things started to change. Tomoya isn't at the centre of things anymore. Circumstance is now the operative word, and it controls Tomoya like a vice, preventing him from his full potential. This is because of his worldview getting bigger, and the 'fog of war' has been lifted, so to speak. While we still see things from his point of view, his embarkation into society after leaving school in effect means that his naive view of being able to effect the changes that he wants, through hard work or whatever ways will be shattered, simply because in real life, shit happens, and he has no way of controlling that. I personally think that Tomoya has lost his footing thanks to his gradual helplessness, and he is not able to exude that self-confidence he had before in the first series. He has been able to cope only because he was able to put down his pride at the times that he should, and actually strive to earn his keep in spite of the times.

Maybe it's just my rose-tinted view of the series speaking, but I'd think that the order of the arcs in After Story so far has been steadily showcasing his lack of control over the events that eventually happen.

- Sunoharas' arc(not Mei's only) - yes he could act as an intermediary or something since he knew both parties well, but how much could he understand about the intricacies of a sibling relationship, given that he is an only child?

- Yukine arc - Gangland warfare, certainly not his place to do anything aside from being an unwilling participant

- And of course AS proper - where society exerts its pressure, economic and otherwise.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Well...it might not be the most exciting arc of the series but I could watch and enjoy any interaction between Tomoya and Nagisa no matter how mundane.

Seriously. I could watch Tomoya read the newspaper while Nagisa serves him tea for an entire episode and have a warm feeling inside.

To me this pre-marital bliss arc has been full of win.

[MeoTwister5]

And then reality shows its ugly head.

Which is going to happen in a few.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by humbug23

Maybe it's just my rose-tinted view of the series speaking, but I'd think that the order of the arcs in After Story so far has been steadily showcasing his lack of control over the events that eventually happen.

- Sunoharas' arc(not Mei's only) - yes he could act as an intermediary or something since he knew both parties well, but how much could he understand about the intricacies of a sibling relationship, given that he is an only child?

- Yukine arc - Gangland warfare, certainly not his place to do anything aside from being an unwilling participant

- And of course AS proper - where society exerts its pressure, economic and otherwise.

Now this is an interesting way to look at the past arcs. It also explain a little bit why some people are not liking Tomoya right now.

[MeoTwister5]

And I think this is what makes his circumstances and the show more realistic and likable.

In short, it's because he no longer has a good control of his own life and circumstances. High school for all intents and purposes is an enclosed and controlled environment where each member in the system can exert his or her own will and greatly affect the system at large.

This isn't the case for human society outside school. So many people, so many ideas, beliefs, circumstances and events that it is impossible for him to will it his own way. Whereas the events in school could be swayed and controlled by his own actions, not everything can be directed by him after graduation.

He was essentially hiw own boss in HS, but in AS not anymore. As the last episodes has shown, he's getting a crash course in life that is often times swept and driven by the tides of society at large. He is only starting out and is only a small ripple in the larger waves.

He's just a man eking out an existence for him and his loved ones in a world much more imposing then he probably had believed. It would be ridiculous to have everything at this point in time revolve around him or have him exert a powerful control. He no longer controls the circumstance, he must now abide by them.

No offense to those who complain about him not taking charge of the story and his life events after school, but this is real life folks, and nothing showcases just how real it is as well as the ogften sad truth that we are only small fish in a larger pond. Having him at the center and command of it all in the name of "making things more interesting" is just a deus ex machina copout of a story that is, above all, about real life itself.

[SwiftStrike]

We got a taste of another characters life, thats a first

[Lost-Wisdom]

Fantastic pacing, great ending, and unexpected plot events. The ending was the icing on the cake though, that was flawless.

Nagisa, perfect for him...

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

And I think this is what makes his circumstances and the show more realistic and likable.

In short, it's because he no longer has a good control of his own life and circumstances. High school for all intents and purposes is an enclosed and controlled environment where each member in the system can exert his or her own will and greatly affect the system at large.
-truncated-

Thanks, I always thought somehow my post was clumsy as hell. This paragraph is more than enough to summarise what I mean.

[OmegaPhlare]

I'll step up in saying the argument going on in here is discouraging me from posting what very little thoughts I might want to post here. When I see something going down, as it has been for the past few weeks, I just mind my own business and stay away.

So, when I saw Chibi state, in reply to a comment from Tenken about the Drama club, "I still think it's bullshit that said goal failed miserably"; I thought to myself, Wow, this guy has a heart of ice and wouldn't think twice about preying on innocent people. Chibi, after reading your post about mistakenly rubbing people the wrong way, I understand that it isn't so horrible like I think it is. You probably don't want to hear it from a stranger on the internet, but you really should try to sound less angry because others' opinions of you are based on your angry-sounding comments.

You take everything to the extreme; even while stepping back you're still fighting the others in saying "come next week a new group of people are at my neck again because I just didn't outright 'rate the episode 10/10' or what have you." Nobody's even suggesting that you should rate these episodes so high. That statement itself implies that the people trying to off your head this week have wanted you to rate it 10/10 and if they wanted you to rate it so high, then they themselves must have given that rating as well. They're not savages and ratings whores... Taking stuff to the extreme makes people like myself believe you're insulting with purpose. The reason I may think you're doing it on purpose is because I myself do that on purpose. If I indirectly slam some person or concept through my unrelated conversation: I certainly did it on purpose and expect some reader to grin at that (unless it's too far off, then that would mean you are reading too much into it).

Originally Posted by Momosan

Spoiler for To Chibi:

Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

@Momosan
I suppose you're having an A-B conversation with Chibi at this point, but I'm disgusted and hurt that you would even think that about other people here. The idea of most (see "More often than not...") people on this forum as being fanboys is saying their opinions should be disregarded on the basis that they are always supportive of their favorite characters. I think the meaning of logic in your case is ambiguous, but most understand that logical arguments are proved through facts. But what facts are there to say about a show we're watching? The only facts are stuff like "The Drama club gave a presentation at the school festival" and not something like "Tomoya is more mature than in season one.": widely accepted but really just an opinion.

Of course everyone here is going to argue with their opinions: there is nothing else to argue. And if there is someone who feels so strongly about their opinion then you should be accepting of it as legitimate. Can you not look at your statement and realize "Hey, I just described everyone who didn't agree with me as unintelligible, incoherent, and unable to use logic." Seriously, that is really damn messed up, like if you're trying to discourage anyone new from disagreeing with you now. I'm only talking about this subject because I put heart and love into what I say, am a huge Nagisa fan, and it wouldn't be nice if anyone was dismissed as a fanboy because they are similar.

---

In general, I hate to say this phrase because it has negative meaning already, but this show "is what it is". If you like the idea of Tomoya being the savior for Fuuko and Kotomi, looking into the past of Tomoyo, or seeing Kyou or Ryou accept that Tomoya already loves someone else, then I think its a safe bet that you would also like to know about the story of Tomoya and Nagisa. This is true for me and furthermore, if I were writing a story I would expect that the people who are reading it will like all of it because I made it in such a way that they should like all of it and not just parts of it. The creators couldn't just make completely different stories and just hope that you like all of them, they expected you to like them and they're right to do that because there are a ton of people here who like all of Clannad and not just some parts. If anyone doesn't like where the story is headed, then the creators certainly were wrong about you. Its hard to stop watching a series, but if you continue watching it after you no longer like it, then you're probably going to pay close attention to everything you don't like about it. If you understand what is really going on here, then please refrain from posting so many of your negative comments.

Notice that I'm really just talking about some opinion and I am indeed trying to get other people to see it the way I see it. It doesn't have any specific aim because I don't have a particular target; from the sound of it there are plenty of people who don't like where this story is going.