Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Decagon]

I think the argument could be made that in the course of the eons it would take the universe to reach heat death or perhaps revert in a big crunch that many more life forms would rise and disappear on their own accord with or without a theoretical intervention. The intervention itself could just protract the natural formation and disappearance of sentient life.
I would really like to call shenanigans on the nonsense science (nonscience?) and ignorance that can typically affect fiction, but maybe the QB hive has persisted for such a considerable amount of time such that they perceive that kind of universal extinguishment to be an actual threat. The kind of energy required to supposedly counteract the effect of entropy on the universe seems absurd, and making that kind of energy from emotions of young teenage girls is on the order of building a space elevator from pubic hair. But hell, who knows. Maybe they turn all that energy into dark matter to glue celestial bodies together.

[taofd]

I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

EPISODE 9 IS OUT, THIS MARKS THE BEGINNING OF DISCUSSION POST-EP9

[taofd]

Here's an update:

What we know:

Mahou Shoujo will become Witches if their soul gems become fully corrupted.

Using magic will slowly corrupt your soul (although is this a matter of emotional entropy or something else is unknown)

QB is an alien who is here to save the universe from the thermodynamic law of entropy.

Human emotions and soul kick reason to the curb and produce infinite amounts of energy.

Every Mahou Shoujo is a Haruhi.

QB believes that sacrificing a few for the good of the many is a legitimate tactic (utilitarianism; makes sense considering they are emotionless and logic based beings).

QB chooses not to intervene because he knows that now, Madoka must become a Mahou Shoujo to save the city. In his view, this is an acceptable course of action because the power Madoka gives is greater than that than the loss incurred by Kyoko.

QB leaves the possibility that it is possible for Mahou Shoujo produce an infinite amount of energy AND it is possible to prevent them from becoming witches. This is a win-win situation for him, so he is not actively barring this opportunity.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by taofd

Here's an update:

What we know:

Human emotions and soul kick reason to the curb and produce infinite amounts of energy.

Every Mahou Shoujo is a Haruhi.

QB believes that sacrificing a few for the good of the many is a legitimate tactic (utilitarianism; makes sense considering they are emotionless and logic based beings).

QB leaves the possibility that it is possible for Mahou Shoujo produce an infinite amount of energy AND it is possible to prevent them from becoming witches. This is a win-win situation for him, so he is not actively barring this opportunity.

I'd really dispute these points. Every magical girl seems to have her own "potential" which seems to affect how much law-free energy the shattering of their soul gem can create. From what we've been given, this energy of their emotions is probably what defies reality, so it may be how their wishes are granted, but they certainly have limits.

The "greater good" argument as it applies to power consumption is also not very ideal imo. It's not to save the universe, it's to be a power source--a battery or power plant--for more "advanced" civilizations in the stars. What is most concerning is that he doesn't mention any alternative sources of power such starfaring civilizations are able to harness. While it may be possible that Madoka as the greatest potential rule breaker might be able to do something, I don't see your evidence of where he says it's possible to prevent them from becoming witches. That's the whole point of "incubation".

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Decagon

I'd really dispute these points. Every magical girl seems to have her own "potential" which seems to affect how much law-free energy the shattering of their soul gem can create. From what we've been given, this energy of their emotions is probably what defies reality, so it may be how their wishes are granted, but they certainly have limits.

The "greater good" argument as it applies to power consumption is also not very ideal imo. It's not to save the universe, it's to be a power source--a battery or power plant--for more "advanced" civilizations in the stars. What is most concerning is that he doesn't mention any alternative sources of power such starfaring civilizations are able to harness. While it may be possible that Madoka as the greatest potential rule breaker might be able to do something, I don't see your evidence of where he says it's possible to prevent them from becoming witches. That's the whole point of "incubation".

The issue isn't alternative sources of energy. The issue is ENTROPY. Raw emotional energy (the human soul) is the only thing QB has revealed that isn't subject to the laws of entropy. To QB, this is all about the greater good.

And no, QB explicitly states that he doesn't know if it's possible. There is no past precedent, so he simply doesn't know.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by taofd

The issue isn't alternative sources of energy. The issue is ENTROPY. Raw emotional energy (the human soul) is the only thing QB has revealed that isn't subject to the laws of entropy. To QB, this is all about the greater good.

And no, QB explicitly states that he doesn't know if it's possible. There is no past precedent, so he simply doesn't know.

And that is the problem with this. They're using lesser beings as fuel rods in lieu of other resources under the pretense that using those other resources is wasteful/not sustainable due to entropy.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Decagon

And that is the problem with this. They're using lesser beings as fuel rods in lieu of other resources under the pretense that using those other resources is wasteful/not sustainable due to entropy.

What is the problem exactly? It may be wrong from our perspective, but it probably is the only solution from theirs.

[creb]

Originally Posted by taofd

What is the problem exactly? It may be wrong from our perspective, but it probably is the only solution from theirs.

Yes, though we'll have to assume they managed to circumvent all sorts of rational sense in the first place to think they'd ever be around to even witness the theoretical heat death of the universe.

Now, I'm not stubborn. I'll go ahead and assume that QB's alien race really has unravelled physics to the point that they are confident they can stick around for such an incredible amount of time.

From that perspective, he really is being kind of nice. You know, in an amusing, twisted, sort of way. Such beings could certainly be much heavier-handed about this obviously, so let's all offer thanks to the alien overlords that they only pick a few sacrifices out of us. And hey, they don't pick any boys, so that's yet another nice gesture they've made! Hehe.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by creb

Yes, though we'll have to assume they managed to circumvent all sorts of rational sense in the first place to think they'd ever be around to even witness the theoretical heat death of the universe.

Now, I'm not stubborn. I'll go ahead and assume that QB's alien race really has unravelled physics to the point that they are confident they can stick around for such an incredible amount of time.

From that perspective, he really is being kind of nice. You know, in an amusing, twisted, sort of way. Such beings could certainly be much heavier-handed about this obviously, so let's all offer thanks to the alien overlords that they only pick a few sacrifices out of us. And hey, they don't pick any boys, so that's yet another nice gesture they've made! Hehe.

Or maybe they're already at the point in which they have to take entropy seriously? Perhaps there are some side effects that they are already having to deal with?

[creb]

Originally Posted by taofd

Or maybe they're already at the point in which they have to take entropy seriously? Perhaps there are some side effects that they are already having to deal with?

I honestly am not even sure how to answer this. :/ Even assuming that they are in a special corner of the universe that has accelerated to heat death seperate from the rest of it , the fact that they are able to send out these little QB dolls to all corners of the universe clearly shows they can move out of such a theoretical "dead" spot.

No, they are clearly thinking on a much higher level and confident that they will be around litterally FOREVER, as that is the only mindset (well, other than the insane) that would spend all this time on combatting a problem that won't be a problem for...I really can't even type out how long in the future that would be.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by taofd

What is the problem exactly? It may be wrong from our perspective, but it probably is the only solution from theirs.

The problem is assuming that it's the only solution. As they know of entropy, I don't think it's a far jump to say there is a level of convergence in technology. They would have to deplete all the easily obtainable fuel resources in their starfaring range for it to be their only solution. When he describes the energy that humans' emotions produce and relates it to many humans there are, he is looking at humans as a source of relatively plentiful energy. To me it seems more like a energy source of convenience rather than one of necessity.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Decagon

The problem is assuming that it's the only solution.

Kyubei's race are Anti-Spirals! Now we just need Simon to show up.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Kyubei's race are Anti-Spirals! Now we just need Simon to show up.

Who will then smite him down faster than that Fatal Pulse doujin with enough despair to fill several realities.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by creb

I honestly am not even sure how to answer this. :/ Even assuming that they are in a special corner of the universe that has accelerated to heat death seperate from the rest of it , the fact that they are able to send out these little QB dolls to all corners of the universe clearly shows they can move out of such a theoretical "dead" spot.

No, they are clearly thinking on a much higher level and confident that they will be around litterally FOREVER, as that is the only mindset (well, other than the insane) that would spend all this time on combatting a problem that won't be a problem for...I really can't even type out how long in the future that would be.

It could be their last ditch effort. We actually don't know what the state of affairs is back at home for QB.

So far, QB has not lied. He has not given misinformation. He has held back information, and some people consider this lying by omission. However, he has also stated very clearly that an individual's "life they knew it " would cease as soon as they became contracted with him. This is something he made very clear from the beginning. That is why he said, this is an important decision and you must think it over carefully.

If we are to take everything QB says at face value, which so far has been accurate, he tells Madoka pretty bluntly. If you want to save the Universe, become a mahou shoujo. He also tells her in no uncertain terms, that if they don't do this, there won't be any universe left for humanity to explore once they mature as a race.

I think that makes the urgency of the situation pretty clear.

[taofd]

Anyone want to speculate on that "Love Me Do" graffiti at the entrance to Sayaka's Labyrinth? I'm guessing it's something related to her relationship with Kamijou (as shown by him also being in her labyrinth)...

Perhaps her not being able to gain his love is the source of her grief?

[SagaraSouske]

Random Speculation again (Due to updated info)

QB's race farm MGs for energy for their own gain and not to reverse entropy. Another race that is more technological advanced but has some sort of prime directive choose to create an agent through time loop to help human resolve this dilemma - Homura is the result, most likely born out of Madoka before she turn into super witch in first time loop. Madoka's potential is seeded by this unknown race and a means to resolve the issue lies within Madoka and Homura's knowledge or some type of discovery needed to be made by both.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Random Speculation again (Due to updated info)

QB's race farm MGs for energy for their own gain and not to reverse entropy. Another race that is more technological advanced but has some sort of prime directive choose to create an agent through time loop to help human resolve this dilemma - Homura is the result, most likely born out of Madoka before she turn into super witch in first time loop. Madoka's potential is seeded by this unknown race and a means to resolve the issue lies within Madoka and Homura's knowledge or some type of discovery needed to be made by both.

Why is everyone so hell bent on believing that QB is evil? lol

[SagaraSouske]

Because his words can never be taken as face value?

[taofd]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Because his words can never be taken as face value?

But they can. Every statement he has made has been undeniably true (so far).

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Because his words can never be taken as face value?

You mistake the words' denotation with their connotation. Factually, everything Kyubey said is true. However, what can be implied from what he says can be very misleading.

Kyubey tells Kyoko that there is no precedence for turning Sayaka back, and that he does not know of a way to turn her back. To Homura, Kyubey just says that it's impossible.

Factually, both statements are true. Kyubey does not know of a way to turn Sayaka back, and because he doesn't see any way, saving Sayaka is impossible. However, the former gives room for hope while the latter does not.