NBA and College Basketball Thread

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

The hype surrounding LeBron since he was in grade school was purely circumstantial. Media coverage from the time Kobe was in high and when LeBron was in high school can't even be compared. Had Kobe been a high schooler around 2000, I doubt the media hype would have been any less.

Comparing the hype is relevant for this discussion, though. You were comparing two players who had stark contrasts coming into the league and the only reason you compared each player is due to the legacy Kobe has built. Facts are facts: LeBron was being hailed as the best thing since Jordan, Kobe was not. Kobe came out of left field. But there's no point in continuing this discussion, the comparisons anyway. I think even you can agree, even as a Heat fan, that LeBron has been anything BUT Jordan. He's not even Pippen.

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

You hate Wade because LeBron chose to play with him as opposed to Rose? Wow...

Iornically, LeBron (or Wade for that matter) would have been better off going to Chicago, since both Wade and Bron are essentially the same player. Honestly, the best thing that could have happened to the NBA last summer was LeBron staying in Cleveland with Bosh joining with him and Wade going to Chicago to play with Rose.

[Afternoon Tea]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

I'm not sure what all he gave up, didn't he say something like he's going to do what's good for him?

Either way, more lulz

An Entire City and its people, huge salary cut
giving up money to win

[Mr. DJ]

Cleveland paid more than Miami? I'm actually surprised...

But I'm not even sure you can see he gave up a city, when he did it rather easily...and publicly.

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Dilla

1.) I know, which is why I said that he was accused of rape. As a superstar, if you put yourself in that position, it was probably because of a sense of entitlement.

2.) I was referencing to several mentions of arrogance, like arrogance is a trait undeserving of NBA titles.

Now this is bull, James literally carried that 2007 Cavs team through the Finals himself and anybody watching that series would be crazy to say James didn't try. But I guess Žydrūnas Ilgauskas, Wally Szczerbiak, Drew Gooden, and Booby Gibson is as good as Shaq, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, & Robert Horry, huh? And was Cleveland not a perennial loser prior to LeBron? Nobody else made that team a regular contender.

1.) Fact is, he turned out innocent. Regardless of what he did to put himself into that position, he was found innocent.

2.) You're going by word of mouth. If "arrogance" is the best (and only) argument you can use as to why Jordan didn't deserve a title, then you really don't have an argument at all (I at least provided several traits of LeBron as to why I personally don't think he deserves a title).

LeBron carried his team past extremely mediocre Eastern Conference teams. The Wizards with Agent Zero, who played ZERO defense even in his prime? LOL. The NJ Nets? LOL. The aging Pistons who came off back to back Finals appearances? What happened once LeBron faced a quality team? That's right, 35% shooting and a sweep.

[Afternoon Tea]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

Cleveland paid more than Miami? I'm actually surprised...

But I'm not even sure you can see he gave up a city, when he did it rather easily...and publicly.

Im pretty sure it killed him inside, just dident show it to the public..

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by CaptnAwesomee

An Entire City, huge salary cut
giving up money to win

He gave uping the city?

And he still have over a hundred million contract.

Btw now we need Dwight pull the dream (hakeem)

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by CaptnAwesomee

Im pretty sure it killed him inside, just dident show it to the public..

he's hiding it well behind a $170,000 Cristal bill

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by CaptnAwesomee

yeah, My Hopes where crushed when my old favorite player chooses a team with Wade, which he somehow convinced bosh into joining. Plus he told the public that bulls and there fans where not loyal... whats not too dislike about that?

He didn't say that. He questioned the loyalty of the organization but never said anything about the fans.

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

Comparing the hype is relevant for this discussion, though. You were comparing two players who had stark contrasts coming into the league and the only reason you compared each player is due to the legacy Kobe has built. Facts are facts: LeBron was being hailed as the best thing since Jordan, Kobe was not. Kobe came out of left field. But there's no point in continuing this discussion, the comparisons anyway. I think even you can agree, even as a Heat fan, that LeBron has been anything BUT Jordan. He's not even Pippen.

Can't argue with that.

Iornically, LeBron (or Wade for that matter) would have been better off going to Chicago, since both Wade and Bron are essentially the same player. Honestly, the best thing that could have happened to the NBA last summer was LeBron staying in Cleveland with Bosh joining with him and Wade going to Chicago to play with Rose.

Based on ratings, the amount of discussion the NBA has generated around the sports talk world, I'd say the best thing that could have happened to the league is what actually did happen.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

Why? Because he makes a lot of money and can basically go anywhere he wants? Honestly, I wouldn't trade my aspirations, my desires, or the things that make me happy or stimulate my imagination for a single day of his life. I really wouldn't. LeBron can go ahead and smile since he's living comfortably, but he under performs in the clutch of his profession. I don't.

Originally Posted by fertygo

Basically he said "I'm rich, b1tch"

This guy better to not allowed to talk in media again, he's sucks balls at it. Do he realize not just "da haters" that criticize his performance at this series? BUT his/miami fans too.

So that's the way to talk to his fan, no doubt why he can betraying his hometown then.

None of you will EVER understand what it's like to be scrutinized on the level of Lebron James...Especially in a social media environment that Jordan never had to live 1 minute in (Not that I think comparing a pass-first Point-Forward to a score-first scorer is smart in any way)...

What did you think he was gonna bow and let himself be pwnt by all his haters? He's suffered a great humiliation no doubt about it, but to think you were gonna get some words that would have somehow stymied your already over-reactive hate for the guy? No matter what he said, you guys, and all the rest of the Lehaters would have still hated...So in the end, by some small measure of theater, he reinforced the notion that your hate is meaningless to him (Even if it isn't the case)...He wasn't gonna cave in publicly, I thought it was a fitting way to end things...

Haters get the satisfaction of seeing him lose, he gets the satisfaction of letting haters know you hate me but you wish you could be me...That's the perfect irony for this overhyped media circus that is The People vs. Lebron James...

[Last Sinner]

Grats to Nowtizki, Kidd and Terry. The dark horse of the season prevailed. Cuban will finally have his day.

Miami will have more chances.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

None of you will EVER understand what it's like to be scrutinized on the level of Lebron James...Especially in a social media environment that Jordan never had to live 1 minute in (Not that I think comparing a pass-first Point-Forward to a score-first scorer is smart in any way)...

What did you think he was gonna bow and let himself be pwnt by all his haters? He's suffered a great humiliation no doubt about it, but to think you were gonna get some words that would have somehow stymied your already over-reactive hate for the guy? No matter what he said, you guys, and all the rest of the Lehaters would have still hated...So in the end, by some small measure of theater, he reinforced the notion that your hate is meaningless to him (Even if it isn't the case)...He wasn't gonna cave in publicly, I thought it was a fitting way to end things...

Haters get the satisfaction of seeing him lose, he gets the satisfaction of letting haters know you hate me but you wish you could be me...That's the perfect irony for this overhyped media circus that is The People vs. Lebron James...

I do wonder how the internet would have exploded when Jordan announced he was going to play baseball...

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

Based on ratings, the amount of discussion the NBA has generated around the sports talk world, I'd say the best thing that could have happened to the league is what actually did happen.

As a Heat fan, it's easy for you to say that because you ended up with three superstars. But think about the publicity the NBA would have got if LeBron stayed in his hometown and had Wade joined his hometown. There still would have been controversial topics on a daily basis if Wade were the one who left HIS team (no offense to you, but the Heat fanbase isn't all that special). But the reason I made the statement I made in the first place, was due to the styles of play of those players and where they'd match up better.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

None of you will EVER understand what it's like to be scrutinized on the level of Lebron James...Especially in a social media environment that Jordan never had to live 1 minute in (Not that I think comparing a pass-first Point-Forward to a score-first scorer is smart in any way)...

What did you think he was gonna bow and let himself be pwnt by all his haters? He's suffered a great humiliation no doubt about it, but to think you were gonna get some words that would have somehow stymied your already over-reactive hate for the guy? No matter what he said, you guys, and all the rest of the Lehaters would have still hated...So in the end, by some small measure of theater, he reinforced the notion that your hate is meaningless to him (Even if it isn't the case)...He wasn't gonna cave in publicly, I thought it was a fitting way to end things...

Haters get the satisfaction of seeing him lose, he gets the satisfaction of letting haters know you hate me but you wish you could be me...That's the perfect irony for this overhyped media circus that is The People vs. Lebron James...

Yeah, but for a guy who supposedly doesn't care about what any of us think, he sure had a great time making statements like "I've been taking mental notes of all the things journalists have been saying about me." Face it, LeBron DOES care. He deserves the humiliation for being such a condescending, self-righteous, egotistical douchebag over the last year.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

1.) Fact is, he turned out innocent. Regardless of what he did to put himself into that position, he was found innocent.

2.) You're going by word of mouth. If "arrogance" is the best (and only) argument you can use as to why Jordan didn't deserve a title, then you really don't have an argument at all (I at least provided several traits of LeBron as to why I personally don't think he deserves a title).

LeBron carried his team past extremely mediocre Eastern Conference teams. The Wizards with Agent Zero, who played ZERO defense even in his prime? LOL. The NJ Nets? LOL. The aging Pistons who came off back to back Finals appearances? What happened once LeBron faced a quality team? That's right, 35% shooting and a sweep.

That the Pistons were aging doesn't diminish what LeBron did in that series.

As for what he did against San Antonio, he was the Cavs' only option and going against a quality defensive team. Was he supposed to shoot over 50% and win games by himself against Duncan, Parker, Ginobli and company?

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

As a Heat fan, it's easy for you to say that because you ended up with three superstars. But think about the publicity the NBA would have got if LeBron stayed in his hometown and had Wade joined his hometown. There still would have been controversial topics on a daily basis if Wade were the one who left HIS team (no offense to you, but the Heat fanbase isn't all that special). But the reason I made the statement I made in the first place, was due to the styles of play of those players and where they'd match up better.

Truth to be told, I'm taking my fandom out of it when I say the best-case scenario played out. To take it even further, the Heat lost. So not only was there drama all season long, a lot of basketball fans are celebrating.

LeBron staying and Wade joining the Bulls would have been big but it still wouldn't have equaled what we've seen this season in terms of sports theater.

I agree with your final point though.

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

That the Pistons were aging doesn't diminish what LeBron did in that series.

As for what he did against San Antonio, he was the Cavs' only option and going against a quality defensive team. Was he supposed to shoot over 50% and win games by himself against Duncan, Parker, Ginobli and company?

The fact that Flip Saunders was the Pistons head coach and is completely foreign to a defensive philosophy, it kinda does. I mean, yeah, kudos to him for that one stellar performance where he scored something like 29 of the Cavs last 30 points, now that WAS Jordan-esque, but he can't hang his hat on that forever.

As for the NBA Finals, even if he was their only option, he was still athletically superior to every player on that floor, especially the Spurs, who were as unathletic as it got. But hey, I'll bite... let's say the collective defense of the Spurs did make the Cavs one dimensional, shooting 35% and not even averaging 20 points is atrocious. Plus, now that we can add his underwhelming Finals numbers from this past series (especially against an AVERAGE defensive team like Dallas), it adds further validity to the statements I made.

[Dilla]

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

2.) You're going by word of mouth. If "arrogance" is the best (and only) argument you can use as to why Jordan didn't deserve a title, then you really don't have an argument at all (I at least provided several traits of LeBron as to why I personally don't think he deserves a title).

Do you understand what I said? When did I say that Jordan or Kobe didn't deserve their titles? Hell yah, they did. I said that arrogance (which is why a lot of people in this thread said that they're happy the Heat didn't win) isn't a reason undeserving of titles, just play on the court. Most multi-championship teams had big auras of arrogant. I wasn't even referring to you when I said that.

LeBron didn't show-up. That is all.

LeBron carried his team past extremely mediocre Eastern Conference teams. The Wizards with Agent Zero, who played ZERO defense even in his prime? LOL. The NJ Nets? LOL. The aging Pistons who came off back to back Finals appearances? What happened once LeBron faced a quality team? That's right, 35% shooting and a sweep.

Way to ignore the fact that the ability of the rest of his team was trash. And whatever the Wizards and Nets had was just as good as the Cavs. And Cavs were big underdogs in that series against the Pistons, but when James single-handedly beat them, all of a sudden they are too old and LeBron had a cake walk? That's bogus, man. And they started off 0-2 in the series as well, a perfect time for him to "quit". Against the Spurs, a team notoriously known for grinding defense, no one player could beat that team. I really don't see how unathleticism mattered, they were three time champions, they knew what they needed to do. All they had to do was blanket James and force his teammates to make a play, and as expected they didn't. Only Skip Bayless would say LeBron didn't try his hardest in that series.

Edit: Ninja'd by Elo on the subject.

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Dilla

Do you understand what I said? When did I say that Jordan or Kobe didn't deserve a title? I said that arrogance (which is why a lot of people in this thread said that they're happy the Heat didn't win) isn't a reason undeserving of titles, just play on the court. LeBron didn't show-up. That is all.
Way to ignore the fact that the ability of the rest of his team was trash. And whatever the Wizards and Nets had was just as good as the Cavs. And Cavs were big underdogs in that series against the Pistons, but when James single-handedly beat them, all of a sudden they are too old and LeBron had a cake walk? That's bogus, man. And they started off 0-2 in the series as well, a perfect time for him to "quit". Against the Spurs, a team notoriously known for grinding defense, no one player could beat that team. All they had to do was blanket James and force his teammates to make a play, and as expected they didn't. Only Skip Bayless would say LeBron didn't try his hardest in that series.

1.) My mistake. I thought you were only referencing to what I said earlier.

2.) Oh, so only LeBron's supporting cast was a joke? What about the other teams I cited? Like I said, what was the identity of the Wizards? What was the identity of the Nets? The Pistons were the only "quality" team James faced that season til' the Spurs and even then, they were 1.) old and 2.) had Flip Saunders as their coach, which to any knowledgeable NBA fan, would be a handicap. If you'd read through this page, I even credited LeBron for that one performance he had against the Pistons. It's was memorable, classic, a performance to remember. But it's not something he can hang his hat on.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Tetra Vaal

The fact that Flip Saunders was the Pistons head coach and is completely foreign to a defensive philosophy, it kinda does. I mean, yeah, kudos to him for that one stellar performance where he scored something like 29 of the Cavs last 30 points, now that WAS Jordan-esque, but he can't hang his hat on that forever.

As for the NBA Finals, even if he was their only option, he was still athletically superior to every player on that floor, especially the Spurs, who were as unathletic as it got. But hey, I'll bite... let's say the collective defense of the Spurs did make the Cavs one dimensional, shooting 35% and not even averaging 20 points is atrocious. Plus, now that we can add his underwhelming Finals numbers from this past series (especially against an AVERAGE defensive team like Dallas, it adds further validity to the statements I made.

Why not? People still talk about Jordan scoring 63 against Boston.

Just because the Spurs weren't particularly athletic doesn't mean they couldn't defend well. Bruce Bowen was still a capable defender and the Spurs could throw Finley at LeBron whenever they had to as well.

I'm not defending how poor his stats were but being the only competent scorer on his team while also being a naturally unselfish player and going against a good defensive team all led to that.

I can't really defend LeBron's performance this past series though.

[Tetra Vaal]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

Why not? People still talk about Jordan scoring 63 against Boston.

I should have been more specific. It's a memorable performance that will be a part of his "legacy", but if that's all he can hang his hat on for his career, then it's extremely underwhelming considering the hype this guy had. I remember back in '03 reading article after article from all the so called "experts" that this guy was to revolutionize the NBA and challenge Jordan for all his MVPs and rings.

Anyway, I wish I could continue this conversation, but I'm gonna hit the hay.

[Dilla]

No need to continue the conversation, it'll pointless to when none of us are going to change our opinions. At least, I'm not.

I don't even why I'm arguing, I'm a Bobcats fan.