Shuffle Game Translation?

[Furudanuki]

Originally Posted by heklin

there will be other ways to get the patch's, for example, email/http download etc, and there are also other ways to confirm ownership then just irc, for example a simple pic of the game and package with a paper in front with a specific number written on it, to make shure the pic cant be used by more than one person

Any viable alternative to IRC sounds great to me. I've played around with IRC before in the past, but in reality I have little or no practical need for it and I hate to keep up with something that I'll only use maybe once a year at most. Limiting at least the initial distribution of the patch to those who have legitimate copies of the game is a nice idea - it will be interesting to see how it plays out in practice.

Originally Posted by ponydash

And a Mayumi teaser image - make your own caption!

"It's true, I'm half demon. Want to see which half?"

Have already sent rep omelette, but still --- ponydash, BANZAI!!!

[radister]

How long ago did you email them Heklin?

[heklin]

just under 2 weeks ago, i contacted both there licensing and legal departments, im hopeing to hear back from them within the next week or 2

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by heklin

as ive stated before, if navel was intrested, i would give them the translation completely free, then they could simply market an english version without all the time/cost investment of a full production version, hell, ive even translated their game manual for them...there only cost would be production of a new packageing/printing of the manual. but once again, that would simply just be pirated to hell within a matter of days of its release

Well, quite frankly (and I'll try to make this my last post on the subject, so we can get back to other things), if I were in their shoes, I'd protect my intellectual property (the heart of my investment) by getting the script from you (since you were kind enough to offer it), send a Cease and Desist to ensure you take no further action in translating or distributing, and then sit on the translation or solicit it until someone pays me money for the right to distribute and sell my game in an English market (and I'd want the licensing fee up-front). Navel isn't in the business of selling software in North America; they don't have connections with publishers, and there isn't even any evidence that there's an actual market worth investing in here. I mean, once your translation is finished, how many sales of Shuffle! do you think it will result in? 100? 1000? It's a drop in the bucket. Plus, do you really believe you can stop piracy? You will succeed where all the commercial software vendors and game publishers have failed? If so, then only due to small quantities and lack of interest, which reinforces the earlier point. Navel's loss of control over their intellectual property, though, can't be fiscally calculated if they officially approve of your plans. So, I maintain, it's in your best interests (and theirs, in a sense - saves them the hassle of having to do all the work) to just ignore you, pretend you don't exist, and hope you go away.

I don't mean to be negative, but I need to present things the way I see it. As a consumer and Shuffle! owner, of course I hope things go well, and I'd love to see the game commercially available in English. But, there are things the fan community can do, and things I don't think we can expect. Expecting publishers to react kindly to our indiscriminate trampling of their intellectual property rights isn't something I'd expect any sensible commercial software vendor to do. I guess I'll just leave it at that.

[Hydex]

Originally Posted by heklin

as gipface suggested, a simple nondisclosure/nonredistribution contract would solve that problem, since, i could then simply file a lawsuit against the person for breach of contract. and, yes, i would do that for alot of people, it would only take a few minutes to creat a specific patch for them. and, im retired, i have all the time i need to make shure the person/persons are punished to the full extent of the law

You made me laugh Do you seriously think that ? The MPAA can't close pir....ay for good with all their money and you hope you can punish someone for theft of your illegal translation of a game which is not even famous?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, quite frankly (and I'll try to make this my last post on the subject, so we can get back to other things), if I were in their shoes, I'd protect my intellectual property (the heart of my investment) by getting the script from you (since you were kind enough to offer it), send a Cease and Desist to ensure you take no further action in translating or distributing, and then sit on the translation or solicit it until someone pays me money for the right to distribute and sell my game in an English market (and I'd want the licensing fee up-front). Navel isn't in the business of selling software in North America; they don't have connections with publishers, and there isn't even any evidence that there's an actual market worth investing in here. I mean, once your translation is finished, how many sales of Shuffle! do you think it will result in? 100? 1000? It's a drop in the bucket. Plus, do you really believe you can stop piracy? You will succeed where all the commercial software vendors and game publishers have failed? If so, then only due to small quantities and lack of interest, which reinforces the earlier point. Navel's loss of control over their intellectual property, though, can't be fiscally calculated if they officially approve of your plans. So, I maintain, it's in your best interests (and theirs, in a sense - saves them the hassle of having to do all the work) to just ignore you, pretend you don't exist, and hope you go away.

I don't mean to be negative, but I need to present things the way I see it. As a consumer and Shuffle! owner, of course I hope things go well, and I'd love to see the game commercially available in English. But, there are things the fan community can do, and things I don't think we can expect. Expecting publishers to react kindly to our indiscriminate trampling of their intellectual property rights isn't something I'd expect any sensible commercial software vendor to do. I guess I'll just leave it at that.

I agree with relentlessflame here. Navel is a corporation and corporation aen't know for acting logically. They sent attack doigs out first then start thinking. By then it is probably too late.

Heklin, unless you plan to mail a contract to ever single person who wants a patch and have sign it and sent it back. Your lawsuit is wouldn't even get off the ground before the judge laugh you out of the court. Besides who are you going to file the lawsuit against? Do you plan compile a list of names and address of every person who gets your patch?

I really think you need to rethink this. Either give out the patch with no string attach or don't release it at all. If the whole piracy thing bothers you that much you should just drop the project. Whatever you do it won't be enough to stop it.

[Shii]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

100? 1000? It's a drop in the bucket.

Ero-games are a smaller market than you think. 1000 copies would make Navel sit up and take notice, but I doubt he can sell that many even if he forced pirates to buy the game.

[Sundae]

no, ero-games are larger market than you think -_-
those otakus in Japan willingly sacrifice a lot of money just for a game, and their number is not that few

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Ero-games are a smaller market than you think. 1000 copies would make Navel sit up and take notice, but I doubt he can sell that many even if he forced pirates to buy the game.

Well, yeah, I agree. I think even 100 is a stretch, to be perfectly honest, but we'll see. 1000 was my "wildest dreams" figure.

Edit: Also, to put it into perspective, Shuffle! On the Stage sold about 30,000 copies during opening week in Japan (October 17 - 23, 2005). Edit 3: Ah, found from the Google cache of our own pre-wipe forum - Shuffle! PC sold about 55,000 in total.

[Vexx]

I'd say the approaching Navel may have been a misstep.... fansubbing and fanworks are kind of a "don't ask don't tell"... the "please stop redistribution" tag keeps you in the greymarket. Your idea of requiring documentation of game ownership certainly protects you somewhat.

It'll depend on whether Navel decides to take the patch as "doujinshi" (which most JP companies seem to have no problem with because they get credit) or if they've been freshly painted with that no-such-thing called Intellectual Property that American lawyers keep trying to export.

The other issue is that they'll get tangled up on the warranty support issues if they "bless" it. Doesn't matter how many "you're on your own" stickers are on it.... if they publicly approve of it, their lawyers will say they've taken too great a risk. If you're very lucky, they'll view it somewhat like a Counterstrike hobbyist map but I doubt it since they didn't provide editing tools.

In general:
Try not to even *use* the term "intellectual property" ... it has no legal meaning and when you use the enemy's terminology you lose. There are real, useful artifacts called copyright, trademark, and fair use ..... always remember to force users of the term "intellectual property" to clarify which item they're talking about. Often they'll have no idea. I'll defer the rest of my soapbox speech .

[Grenthal]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

(...)

Heklin, unless you plan to mail a contract to ever single person who wants a patch and have sign it and sent it back. (...) Besides who are you going to file the lawsuit against? Do you plan compile a list of names and address of every person who gets your patch?

(...) Either give out the patch with no string attach or don't release it at all.

My 2 cents as well - I agree with Xellos. If the contact You are proposing to future user of Youre patch should be valid, it can't be 'signed' just in mail - it must be signed personally(handwriting). Otherwise You won't be able to prove it's not fake :/. What safety do You got, that all personal data written in this contract or given to You arent false? If someone who gave false "data" distribute patch in the internet You won't be able to do nothing about it. Only way to make sure You won't be cheated, is to send patch using tradicional post office to adress given in contract. (package fee to other countries would be enormous though).

It's sad.. but as Xellos mentioned You should distribute this patch with no string or... just be happy within Youreself that You did a great job and dont distribute it .

This is just my opinion so treat this as you want

[animecrazy]

im sure heklin will decied what he belives is best for the project, like he has always done
But anyway lets now move away from all these "What If's", its rather depressing.
so moving on...
@Ponydash, any idea when your post the next part of Kareha's path?

[~Daisuki~]

Originally Posted by animecrazy

im sure heklin will decied what he belives is best for the project, like he has always done
But anyway lets now move away from all these "What If's", its rather depressing.
so moving on...

it may be depressing but its prob the most important thing in this thread

[ponydash]

Originally Posted by animecrazy

@Ponydash, any idea when your post the next part of Kareha's path?

Right now!

This is a long day, so bear with me...

13/8: Rin and Asa meet Kareha in Flora. Apparently they met each other by chance on their way here, and Asa wants to sit with Rin. Kareha shows them to their seats and asks them to wait for a few minutes. After she's gone, Asa comments that since Kareha got to know Rin better, she's been getting happier every day, and that the two of them look good together. Rin gets embarassed, then Asa becomes very serious and asks Rin exactly how he feels about Kareha. Rin replies that he's not sure. Asa's expression softens and he says that's exactly what she thought he'd say. She then asks what about Kaede, Nerine and Sia. Would they be alright with him being with Kareha? And more importantly, what would Kareha think about it all? But then she says that she doesn't think that Rin is playing games with Kareha and if he really likes her he should do someting about it because Kareha doesn't have a clue, despite how nice she is. that's why Rin has to be the one to ask her out on a date and not wait for her to make a move. Rin tries to deny everything but Asa presses him and says the two of them have feelings for each other, so naturally the two of them should go out on a date. Rin then says they should take Tsubomi with them, but Asa says that Tsubomi will be happier to see her big sister ge together with Rin. Asa then mentions that the God's have a polygamous marraige system so Rin could marry both of them. She then brings a bit of reality into the proceedings by saying that Kaede has been with Rin for a very long time now and she would be really sad if Kareha and Rin have feelings for each other. Rin is silent for a few seconds, but Asa then says that if Rin and KAreha really like each other then they can't help it. She tells Rin to hang in there.
Kareha then appears and says that Asa and Rin look really cute together. Asa immediately turns red and asks what Kareha is talking about, stammering over her words. Kareha then says that Asa-chan looks even cuter when she's embarassed. Asa then responds by saying that Kareha looks cute in her outfit; at least that's what Rin said. Now it's Kareha's turn to get embarassed, but Asa presses her and says she should go on a date with Rin. Kareha looks shocked, but Asa laughs and says she was just joking. kareha, recovering from the shock, looks a little disappointed. Rin then interrupts and asks if Kareha is doing anything tomorrow. She doesn't think she is, so Rin then asks her if she would like to go on a date with him. Kareha says that sounds fun, and then it dawns on her that Rin is only asking only her out on a date and it would just be the two of them. Rin confirms this. Just the two of them. Kareha is silent for a second, then get's all embarassed again and makes a very cute noise. She stammers about how happy she is that Rin's asked her for a date and how much she's like to go on a date with him, then she turns to Asa and asks her what she should do. Asa says that she should make the decision for herself. Kareha pancs some more about her and Rin being alone together. Rin then asks if she doesn't want to go on a date after all, but Kareha immediately responds that that't not what she's saying. Asa than says that means that she's ok with it. Kareha stumbles over and answer again, so Asa quickly jumps in and asks if it would be alright if she went on a date with Rin instead. Kareha quickly tells Asa that she can;t do that. Asa then says, so, in other words, you want to go on a date with Rin-chan? After moe cute noises, Kareha says yes. Asa then says Rin is a lucky boy. She then says this is the first date Kareha' s been on and wishes them both good luck. Kareha goes into Ma Ma Ma mode thinking about being alone with Rin. Rin asks Asa if she would like to go on a date with him, but she makes some excuse about not wanting to ake Kaede even more upset. She then wishes Rin the best of luck with Kareha.

So there you go. Asa's the one who sacrifices her own happiness to get Kareha and Rin together. I know this was only one day, but it was a long day and it took me over an hour to translate. I'll do some more tonight. Oh, here;s another picture. It;s an extra CG from Primula's path.

[usspaul]

Originally Posted by ponydash

Oh, and since I didn't get to post another bit of Kareha's path, here's a couple of the CG's to say sorry.

such lovely kareha pics i hope there are more to come lol me loves kareha

[~Daisuki~]

i hope they dont want to make english versions because i dont want to have to buy the game again lol the only reason i bought it was for this translation.

[-Nyu-]

Oh my, was 1 day away on my school party (yes guys, bye bye school *G*).
Hmm, first: There is another excellent solution to sell visual novels: Downloads!
I have a copy of Planetarian for 10$. I downloaded it. Each time, I want to install the game, he checks the server. The system is: Each downloaded version has an ID and is registered on my name. When I change my OS (new installation, other name, whatever) I first have to go on the shop's homepage for a re-login.
This system is the best and it's impossible to pirate this version. Ok, hack their servers, good luck
And in the age of broadband internet it's a good solution. In Germany there are more and more companies who offer their games also as download.
This whole thing with Navel: I support Helkin's decision to contact them. Honestly: These guys from Navel or other companies are stupid. Point. They're producing their games for the Japanese market, now there are interests from all over the world. I don't want them to do an English version of their game immediately, but some interest wouldn't be too bad after all. Everything is possible, even with less money, if you put some effort into it.
I have no idea about the laws, what is allowed and what's not. Next year I'll start studying rights (economic, international and european rights etc.) plus Japanese.
I'm just glad, that people like Helkin exist, because the companies like Navel care nothing about us fans from other countries.

[radister]

I agree with heklin choice, however i be lying if i didn't say i fell uneasy about it.
@Ponydash,
thanks for more on Kareha's path.

[Akyra]

Might as well add in my 2 cents. I am from Australia, so this might be different. Down here, internet laws are not that well developed.

A basic contract requires an offer, consideration, acceptance. To be honest, the defendant can easily say that the there was no consideration (means that the defendant did not understand the contract, or signed without being fully informed) or that the acceptance is void (due to the fact that it's all electronic, and no actual/physical witness to see the signing). I haven't done internet law, but I have heard it's quite tricky and it's still developing.

It's true Heklin should be careful and protect himself from copyright infringements and all that, but with my understanding, it's quite hard to get someone to sign it over the net.

Of course, that is what I remember from Contracts, so I could be wrong but if you are really worried about it, contacting Navel was a good decision. Though being a Corp and all, don't expect them to be nice about it...(Corporations are just people who want to make money, so they might just take up on your offer, and send you a cease distribution letter. If that's the case, you might as well try place a copyright on it, and get royalties or we can pay you for your work. Though I am grateful that you are translating it.

[EdenB]

Originally Posted by -Nyu-

Each time, I want to install the game, he checks the server. The system is: Each downloaded version has an ID and is registered on my name. When I change my OS (new installation, other name, whatever) I first have to go on the shop's homepage for a re-login.
This system is the best and it's impossible to pirate this version. Ok, hack their servers, good luck

Hack the server? No. Patch the game to skip the server check is what people have done to other games in the past. I can't remember which, but I remember hearing about an English visual novel which used that system have that happen, then the patch was distributed with the game as a pirate copy.

And as for the internet law thing, doesn't another difficulty come into it when you might get someone from America leaking it, or maybe someone from China, or even someone from Russia. So different laws may apply.