AnimeSuki Forums

physics223 · 2006-08-12, 20:25

Hey, wao, I'm not evil. But it has gotten dreary ... and boring ... and directionless ...

HONEY AND CLOVER CALLS FOR YOU. CONVERT NOW.

Jokes aside, I admit to wingdarkness and to everyone I told once that I thought Ergo Proxy was better than GitS that I suck, I was lying, they were correct, etc.

wao · 2006-08-12, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

I stopped watching this series thirteen episodes ago and I came back only to notice the craptacular animation quality and very... lame ending. Definately not the best of shows to come from Madhouse now IMO.

Especially since it doesn't come from Madhosue in the first place.

physics223: Dude, I have watched Honey and Clover. I watched it even before you did. kthxbye.

and TamaNeko: YES!! Pino was so cute. Actually, I think Pino's randomness and total disregard for seriousness or anything made the anime much better. She just did her own thing. Thank goodness...

physics223 · 2006-08-12, 21:02

I know, I wasn't talking to you. I knew you watched it WAYYY before I did.

Pino is so cute ...

OneInEveryCrowd · 2006-08-12, 23:05

I don't understand much Japanese but I did get one major satisfaction out of episode 23...

Spoiler:

Aniki Meiski · 2006-08-13, 06:35

Don't worry, even most Japanese views are completely baffled by the series, even though they understand Japanese. Ergo Proxy has insanely dense writing for a TV show.

still writing the summary
blah it's going to take 4 hours to explain a half hour TV show!
http://anikimeiski.blogspot.com/2006...roxy-ep23.html

bluelotus · 2006-08-13, 06:46

Before I 'rate' this episode I will wait for Anikimeiski's Summery - I first want to know what the dialogues are about...

But like almost every time (in the last 3 months or so) I read and hear mostly critical reviews of the particular episode at the time. Well I have to disagree. From what I saw and 'get' of this finale I think it's pretty good. I think it's even better from what I'd expected.

And what I don't get at all is the comparison between 'H&C' and 'Ergo Proxy'.

Don't get me wrong - I like 'H&C' very much (go Mayama x Rika!

) - but for completly different reasons. It's for their realistic depiction of characters and relationships; for the balance of comedy and drama... etc. It's a really good 'slice of life' thing. Well 'Ergo Proxy' isn't a 'slice of live' drama, isn't it. It's a patchwork of philosophical ideas - well-narrated in a very dark plot and athmosphere with religious and mythological references. And I LOVE the artwork and character design. So I think comparing 'H&C' and 'Ergo Proxy' is like comparing apples and pears... And yes - it's not the first dystopian narration - but from my POV Ergo Proxy as a whole thing really is original.

My 2 cents so far...

physics223 · 2006-08-13, 07:12

In case you didn't notice, I was jocular.

It lies in the realm of mediocrity compared to GitS in my opinion.

Deacon Blues · 2006-08-13, 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wao

Especially since it doesn't come from Madhosue in the first place.

Meah. I have a bad habit of mixing up Manglobe and Madhouse. :/

MrProphet · 2006-08-13, 11:30

"Craptacular animation"?

We must have been watching different shows altogether. Because the last episode looked excellent with an almost cinematic feel. I am not even talking about the "fight", because it's something that I've been taking for granted now, but the way the scenes were staged was definitely heads above a normal TV episode. The example I'd like to make was in the beginning of the episode, with Real and the Proxies on the tower. The way the camera interchanged the POVs was very "film-like". It was as if the whole thing was animated at the film framerate rather than standard anime rate.

Even if this was the last one and a certain level of quality was expected, it was quite consistent with the last 10 or so episodes. Perhaps someone need to watch them in sequence before making unreasonable statements.

Additionally, much of the lack of sattisfaction that I am hearing from people on the last page or two is absolutely caused by the lack of clear understanding of dialogues, because some of that stuff is actually explained. Just pay attention.

No, the second season is not necessary at all. The "open" nature of the ending is attributed more to the "life goes on" feeling, much less that of something being unresolved. Vincent's mission as a Proxy continues, the Pulse of Awekening is not yet finished. That's all there is to it. All other issues were taken care of!

I must say that I was extremely sattisfied both with the ending and the whole show in general.

The quality of presentation, though spotty in the middle, was rather high on average and the last quarter of the whole show was downright amazing. There is some imagery in the last episode that is simply iconic.

The storytelling was quite unconventional, but in an interesting way. None of the "special" episodes felt forced or unnecessary. The ending was interesting to me and I felt like it all clicked together. Proxy One/Memory Hacker's explanation actually made sense to me! A lot of confusion concerning previous episodes was actually swept away here by Memory Hacker's monologue. Yes, it was talk-heavy, but it was actually something interesting to listen to, mainly because it did away with many supposed "inconsistencies".

And I guess a few images would be forthcoming, since noone seems to have posted any.

Spoiler:

Aniki Meiski · 2006-08-13, 12:19

Summary here.
The end of the world and the beginning of a new one.
http://anikimeiski.blogspot.com/2006...roxy-ep23.html

bluelotus · 2006-08-13, 13:38

Ahhhh - thanks MrProphet - I couldn't have said it better.

@Aniki
I don't want to copy-paste my comment at your blog... so in short: thanks for your great review

@physics223

Quote:

In case you didn't notice, I was jocular.

Ohh - then I misunderstood...

Quote:

It lies in the realm of mediocrity compared to GitS in my opinion.

While I like both movies - especially the second one 'Innocence' - for me it's very much unlike 'Ergo Proxy'. It's true - GitS also plays with philosophical themes. But unlike 'Ergo Proxy' at the surface GitS still has a linear plotline, so you CAN see it simply as an action paced movie and still enjoy it. In contrast if you don't like puzzles you never really will enjoy 'Ergo Proxy'.
And that's the difference for me: GitS has a plot with philosophical ideas, while 'Ergo Proxy's plot is determined from that philosophical ideas... I don't know if I say this right... What I mean is: the narration of Ergo Proxy subordinates itself to its primordial ideas. I think that's what MrProphet meant when he said 'The storytelling was quite unconventional, but in an interesting way.'

Again - sorry for my english... I'm learning.

MrProphet · 2006-08-13, 14:01

I think this is also true of GITS. At least the movies, which relied heavily on the plot pulling through and articulating Oshii's specific ideas, not the other way around.

The difference between GITS and Ergo Proxy is that GITS is extremely straight-forward. Convoluted and hard to follow - yes. But straight-forward nonetheless.

Ergo Proxy, in comparision, is very confusing until the very end. Until we see the complete picture, until we finally learn the nature of Ergo Proxy's mission and its genesis, we are left grasping for straws.

It is indeed very puzzle-like. We get lots of valueable hints throughout the series, but those hints do not combine in a linear fashion. We don't go through A to B to discover the meaning of C. Instead, we get C, Q and F at the same time and then maybe we get more random hints that do not fit together with the earlier revelations. In fact, sometimes these hints all contradict one another because the story is so multi-layered. The perfect example would be the connection between Ergo Proxy and Proxy One. Just look back to our previous discussions and see how much we were left in the dark and how much one of them was indeed the Shadow Warrior (Kagemusha, as Memory Hacker has said) for the other.

Not until we get the final piece of the puzzle that we actually understand what the hell is going on. To me this me the ultimate beauty of Ergo Proxy - the understanding that despite the confusion, in the end it all actually means something and has a purpose. It's almost cathartic.

And yes, the second half of the series has almost zero plot and 100% hints thrown around. I understand that some may be disappointed that Re-l, Vincent and Pino didn't go around actually doing stuff, but by the time of the Ophelia episode I have already resigned myself to the fact that it's not about doing stuff (i.e. action adventure), it's about finding new pieces of the original puzzle: What is Ergo Proxy?

I think the ending was brilliant in finally bringing it all together. Some might disagree, but all in all I would feel that this disagreement would be based upon different expectations and pre-conceptions people were having. Those who wanted a different purpose would be disappointed. The ending of Ergo Proxy is definitely not a one-size-fits-all type of finale. It's very specific to it's original mission statement and I thought that this was in fact achieved in the end.

TamaNeko · 2006-08-13, 14:53

Aniki Meiski, thank you for your summary. It makes a lot more sense now and the ending doesn't feel so bad anymore.

Still, knowing what went on now just makes the screaming for a Season 2 or OVA even louder. There's just no way it can end there!

Oh, and found this at 4chan. A Pino GIF! We need more Pino, the new world of Real and Vincent needs the cuteness of Pino!

Spoiler:

Aniki Meiski · 2006-08-13, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TamaNeko

Aniki Meiski, thank you for your summary. It makes a lot more sense now and the ending doesn't feel so bad anymore.

Still, knowing what went on now just makes the screaming for a Season 2 or OVA even louder. There's just no way it can end there!

Oh, and found this at 4chan. A Pino GIF! We need more Pino, the new world of Real and Vincent needs the cuteness of Pino!

Spoiler:

Pino and her harmonica

Corrupt_Id · 2006-08-13, 15:14

Never mind, found it!

lommm · 2006-08-14, 05:37

i thought the ending was pure perfection

i don't want to argue about the ending, to each his or her own, but i loved it

this is easily in my top five of all time

Spoiler:

@Aniki Meiski: thank you thank you thank you i am unable to thank you enough... i only understand about a third of what is said, and in a series like this, that is like understanding nothing at all, so you have really made this series for me... not only could i watch the raws and follow along without waiting for fansubs, but i think my Japanese is improvinng because i knew what the scenes were about so my ears could learn to pick up on the words better through context... THANK YOU

physics223 · 2006-08-14, 06:27

Have fun, you guys, with your newfound favorite anime.

As for me ... w00t for Honey and Clover II. *dances and whistles*

@lommm

Are you just interested in science fiction stuff? I really suggest you watching Honey and Clover if you're open-minded about most things. It doesn't use pretense, nor does it utilize abstruse philosophy, but I deem it more philosophical and deeper than most (if not all) the other anime I've seen.

To each his own. I personally, however, don't even think this belongs to my top 20 anime of all time. It was probably made for American consumers ... and this easily will get consumed due to the hot girl + sci-fi + postapocalyptic setting.

wingdarkness · 2006-08-14, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by physics223

Jokes aside, I admit to wingdarkness and to everyone I told once that I thought Ergo Proxy was better than GitS that I suck, I was lying, they were correct, etc.

While I thank you for the name-drop, I am sorely dissapointed that I wasn't able to discuss this series in realtime with the rest of you...To be honest the only time I ever think about this show now is when I come to this forum...I'm like on the first page of this thread because I couldn't wait to experince what looked beyond brilliant in pre-production...Whether the series wound up being good or bad it'll be ages before I ever know since this is by far the worst type of show to watch when you can't fully understand Japanese...What a crap-shoot this series was for me...I guess I'll wait for the DVD's or [adult swim] to watch the rest of the series...Kinda heart-broken the show wasn't big in the anime-community like I thought it would be and by alot of the non-spoilerish stuff I've read it seems many consider it as just an alright show at best....

Corrupt_Id · 2006-08-14, 08:51

Hmmm, which picture is better, I'm making a new sig and want some input.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...Proxy/ergo.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/78888.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/55544.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/42222.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/23333.jpg

bluelotus · 2006-08-14, 09:23

@corrupt_id
I like the last one with Ergo and Monad very much. But what I miss in the mix are shots of Pino and Real...

@MrProphet

Quote:

I think this is also true of GITS. At least the movies, which relied heavily on the plot pulling through and articulating Oshii's specific ideas, not the other way around.

The difference between GITS and Ergo Proxy is that GITS is extremely straight-forward. Convoluted and hard to follow - yes. But straight-forward nonetheless.

Ergo Proxy, in comparision, is very confusing until the very end. Until we see the complete picture, until we finally learn the nature of Ergo Proxy's mission and its genesis, we are left grasping for straws.

You're right. That's exactly what I meant. I think I screwed up with my limited active vocabulary. Sorry about that

Your picture with the 'A to B to discover the meaning of C. Instead, we get C, Q and F...' is absolutely to the point. To extend your mathematical metaphor - structure-wise Ergo Proxy is more like handling with systems of equation rather than with the basic multiplication tables.

2006-08-12, 20:25	Link #1021
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	Hey, wao, I'm not evil. But it has gotten dreary ... and boring ... and directionless ... HONEY AND CLOVER CALLS FOR YOU. CONVERT NOW. Jokes aside, I admit to wingdarkness and to everyone I told once that I thought Ergo Proxy was better than GitS that I suck, I was lying, they were correct, etc. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-08-12, 21:02	Link #1023
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	I know, I wasn't talking to you. I knew you watched it WAYYY before I did. Pino is so cute ... __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-08-12, 23:05	Link #1024
OneInEveryCrowd Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Jose, California, USA	I don't understand much Japanese but I did get one major satisfaction out of episode 23... Spoiler: Question: What was the very last thing that passed through the mind of Deadalus Yumeno at the end of Ergo Proxy? Spoiler: Answer: His ass !

2006-08-13, 07:12	Link #1027
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	In case you didn't notice, I was jocular. It lies in the realm of mediocrity compared to GitS in my opinion. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-08-13, 11:30	Link #1029
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	"Craptacular animation"? We must have been watching different shows altogether. Because the last episode looked excellent with an almost cinematic feel. I am not even talking about the "fight", because it's something that I've been taking for granted now, but the way the scenes were staged was definitely heads above a normal TV episode. The example I'd like to make was in the beginning of the episode, with Real and the Proxies on the tower. The way the camera interchanged the POVs was very "film-like". It was as if the whole thing was animated at the film framerate rather than standard anime rate. Even if this was the last one and a certain level of quality was expected, it was quite consistent with the last 10 or so episodes. Perhaps someone need to watch them in sequence before making unreasonable statements. Additionally, much of the lack of sattisfaction that I am hearing from people on the last page or two is absolutely caused by the lack of clear understanding of dialogues, because some of that stuff is actually explained. Just pay attention. No, the second season is not necessary at all. The "open" nature of the ending is attributed more to the "life goes on" feeling, much less that of something being unresolved. Vincent's mission as a Proxy continues, the Pulse of Awekening is not yet finished. That's all there is to it. All other issues were taken care of! I must say that I was extremely sattisfied both with the ending and the whole show in general. The quality of presentation, though spotty in the middle, was rather high on average and the last quarter of the whole show was downright amazing. There is some imagery in the last episode that is simply iconic. The storytelling was quite unconventional, but in an interesting way. None of the "special" episodes felt forced or unnecessary. The ending was interesting to me and I felt like it all clicked together. Proxy One/Memory Hacker's explanation actually made sense to me! A lot of confusion concerning previous episodes was actually swept away here by Memory Hacker's monologue. Yes, it was talk-heavy, but it was actually something interesting to listen to, mainly because it did away with many supposed "inconsistencies". And I guess a few images would be forthcoming, since noone seems to have posted any. Spoiler: Last edited by MrProphet; 2006-08-13 at 12:18.

2006-08-13, 06:35	Link #1025
Aniki Meiski Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006	Don't worry, even most Japanese views are completely baffled by the series, even though they understand Japanese. Ergo Proxy has insanely dense writing for a TV show. still writing the summary blah it's going to take 4 hours to explain a half hour TV show! http://anikimeiski.blogspot.com/2006...roxy-ep23.html

2006-08-13, 06:46	Link #1026
bluelotus TuxRacer :D Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Europe	Before I 'rate' this episode I will wait for Anikimeiski's Summery - I first want to know what the dialogues are about... But like almost every time (in the last 3 months or so) I read and hear mostly critical reviews of the particular episode at the time. Well I have to disagree. From what I saw and 'get' of this finale I think it's pretty good. I think it's even better from what I'd expected. And what I don't get at all is the comparison between 'H&C' and 'Ergo Proxy'. Don't get me wrong - I like 'H&C' very much (go Mayama x Rika! ) - but for completly different reasons. It's for their realistic depiction of characters and relationships; for the balance of comedy and drama... etc. It's a really good 'slice of life' thing. Well 'Ergo Proxy' isn't a 'slice of live' drama, isn't it. It's a patchwork of philosophical ideas - well-narrated in a very dark plot and athmosphere with religious and mythological references. And I LOVE the artwork and character design. So I think comparing 'H&C' and 'Ergo Proxy' is like comparing apples and pears... And yes - it's not the first dystopian narration - but from my POV Ergo Proxy as a whole thing really is original. My 2 cents so far...

2006-08-13, 12:19	Link #1030
Aniki Meiski Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006	Summary here. The end of the world and the beginning of a new one. http://anikimeiski.blogspot.com/2006...roxy-ep23.html Last edited by Aniki Meiski; 2006-08-13 at 12:36.

2006-08-13, 14:01	Link #1032
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	I think this is also true of GITS. At least the movies, which relied heavily on the plot pulling through and articulating Oshii's specific ideas, not the other way around. The difference between GITS and Ergo Proxy is that GITS is extremely straight-forward. Convoluted and hard to follow - yes. But straight-forward nonetheless. Ergo Proxy, in comparision, is very confusing until the very end. Until we see the complete picture, until we finally learn the nature of Ergo Proxy's mission and its genesis, we are left grasping for straws. It is indeed very puzzle-like. We get lots of valueable hints throughout the series, but those hints do not combine in a linear fashion. We don't go through A to B to discover the meaning of C. Instead, we get C, Q and F at the same time and then maybe we get more random hints that do not fit together with the earlier revelations. In fact, sometimes these hints all contradict one another because the story is so multi-layered. The perfect example would be the connection between Ergo Proxy and Proxy One. Just look back to our previous discussions and see how much we were left in the dark and how much one of them was indeed the Shadow Warrior (Kagemusha, as Memory Hacker has said) for the other. Not until we get the final piece of the puzzle that we actually understand what the hell is going on. To me this me the ultimate beauty of Ergo Proxy - the understanding that despite the confusion, in the end it all actually means something and has a purpose. It's almost cathartic. And yes, the second half of the series has almost zero plot and 100% hints thrown around. I understand that some may be disappointed that Re-l, Vincent and Pino didn't go around actually doing stuff, but by the time of the Ophelia episode I have already resigned myself to the fact that it's not about doing stuff (i.e. action adventure), it's about finding new pieces of the original puzzle: What is Ergo Proxy? I think the ending was brilliant in finally bringing it all together. Some might disagree, but all in all I would feel that this disagreement would be based upon different expectations and pre-conceptions people were having. Those who wanted a different purpose would be disappointed. The ending of Ergo Proxy is definitely not a one-size-fits-all type of finale. It's very specific to it's original mission statement and I thought that this was in fact achieved in the end.

2006-08-13, 14:53	Link #1033
TamaNeko Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Aniki Meiski, thank you for your summary. It makes a lot more sense now and the ending doesn't feel so bad anymore. Still, knowing what went on now just makes the screaming for a Season 2 or OVA even louder. There's just no way it can end there! Oh, and found this at 4chan. A Pino GIF! We need more Pino, the new world of Real and Vincent needs the cuteness of Pino! Spoiler:

2006-08-13, 15:14	Link #1035
Corrupt_Id Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Matthews, North Carolina	Never mind, found it! Last edited by Corrupt_Id; 2006-08-14 at 04:41.

2006-08-14, 05:37	Link #1036
lommm l'homme de lommm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: 34 3 118 15	i thought the ending was pure perfection i don't want to argue about the ending, to each his or her own, but i loved it this is easily in my top five of all time Spoiler: i really loved how she melted like was in the heat of the sun... Daedelus' creation killed his beloved Real/Monad just as Icarus' wings burned in the sun and Icarus fell to his death... Deadelus last thoughts were of guilt, i am also certain... in the original myth, Daedelus lived out the rest of his days emotionally empty, guilt and grief having consumed him... he was such a genius he was able to create something to save his beloved son (here Real/Monad) but he was not smart enough to teach his son not to fly to high... he warned him not to be burnt by the son, but his son found the heavens to be too beautiful to resist and he perished in flame, his body swallowed up by Poseidon... i found this image to be hauntingly beautiful and some of the best artwork of the series... @Aniki Meiski: thank you thank you thank you i am unable to thank you enough... i only understand about a third of what is said, and in a series like this, that is like understanding nothing at all, so you have really made this series for me... not only could i watch the raws and follow along without waiting for fansubs, but i think my Japanese is improvinng because i knew what the scenes were about so my ears could learn to pick up on the words better through context... THANK YOU

2006-08-14, 06:27	Link #1037
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	Have fun, you guys, with your newfound favorite anime. As for me ... w00t for Honey and Clover II. dances and whistles @lommm Are you just interested in science fiction stuff? I really suggest you watching Honey and Clover if you're open-minded about most things. It doesn't use pretense, nor does it utilize abstruse philosophy, but I deem it more philosophical and deeper than most (if not all) the other anime I've seen. To each his own. I personally, however, don't even think this belongs to my top 20 anime of all time. It was probably made for American consumers ... and this easily will get consumed due to the hot girl + sci-fi + postapocalyptic setting. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-08-14, 08:51	Link #1039
Corrupt_Id Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Matthews, North Carolina	Hmmm, which picture is better, I'm making a new sig and want some input. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...Proxy/ergo.jpg http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/78888.jpg http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/55544.jpg http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/42222.jpg http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...roxy/23333.jpg Last edited by xris; 2006-08-14 at 09:36. Reason: We are not an image board ;)