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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 16 | 25.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 16 | 25.00% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 13 | 20.31% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 3 | 4.69% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 8 | 12.50% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 2 | 3.13% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 4 | 6.25% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 1.56% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.56% | |
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-03-29, 10:31 | Link #1041 | |||||||||||||
Banned
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For those curious, it was ep 13, almost 14 minutes in.
Now, @Demi: Since our conversation is more of a comparison, I will make a post response in the other thread later. @Triple_R: Our conversation has more to do with the movie itself and not as much of a comparison, so I think it is still okay to continue here. But there are two things I would like acknowledgement from you, before you read more into this post: #1. You are aware that I said those are essentially potential cuts, essentially the maximum number of cuts I would make to free up some time. Depending on time needed, not all of them would be made. Please acknowledge this before you panic too much, so we can continue to have a nominal conversation. #2. An understanding that you don't need to panic. You got what you wanted already, and you'll get more of it. Before you get really upset, realize that I have no power to alter what has already been done, nor what will happen in the 3rd movie, which will happen regardless of what you or I think. So calm down and try to understand, rather than blow a gasket. Quote:
Nanoha running, I could cut. In fact, good catch. The wake up part, was a concession to leave, because it shows that Nanoha is looking forward to meeting Fate that day... I'm just having the meetup happen later. Quote:
Hayate is vital to the plot The Wolks are vital to the plot Reinforce is vital to the plot The Book of Darkness is vital to the plot Chrono and Lindy's emotions I consider vital to the plot, given their connection Nanoha is NOT that vital Fate is NOT that vital Yuuno is NOT that vital Leti is NOT that vital Sure, the "not vital" people still have some roles, but they are also looked at harder when something needs to be cut. The only reason that people like Yuuno and Leti didn't have more cut, is that they didn't have much to begin with. Although, as I said, I am considering ways to cut Leti out totally. Perhaps have Chrono see the book as he does in the series, instead of being briefed. As much as I hate Nanoha's early SLB being cut, it is a sacrifice I am willing to make for the plot. I'm upset, but I understand. THAT is what I'd like to see from other people. Quote:
But if you'd rather have your park scene.... Quote:
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But part of cutting this, would also be to expand Suzuka's library scene with Hayate, helping to develop their friendship to the level where Suzuka would bring her friends to the hospital. Other than a sudden, "Oh, Suzuka met this person and has known them all of 10 seconds, and is thus really buddy-buddy with them." Quote:
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But these are merely opinions we both carry, and we each like to believe we hold the more correct view, ya? Quote:
You know how many scenes Fate and Chrono have to develop their relationship? Zero. Zilch. Nada. None. Hell, Fate's relationship with Signum was heavily cut in this movie, and I'd argue that is a very important relationship that could only really be developed here. So, to use Fate's words, "Stop being selfish!" You're getting plenty of candy already, and when people voice an opinion that they'd like a piece or two of candy as well, your response is, "NO! My Candy! Stop killing my joy!" Can you not afford to share some candy? Or are you like Reinforce, who prizes the well-being of one, over the destruction she'd bring to the entire world in the process, which prompts Fate's line? And as I have mentioned many times, you are already getting what you want anyway, so why worry at all? Chrono and Lindy are done; this was their only real moment to shine, and to have their first beginning moments of a family with Fate shown to us. From here on, they will just be assumed to be a family, with none of the close beginning bonding moments (something like the series had with Lindy buying a cell phone for Fate). In the next movie, unless the new antagonist has something to do with Lindy and Chrono (other than their role as DAB officers), I'll agree there that their role should probably be kept to a minimum and they don't need development. So, given that you got what you wanted already, and are going to get a whole lot more while everyone else gets deprived, can you not at least show some empathy and go, "Yeah, your situation sucks, and I wish we all could have gotten something good out of this movie" ? Or do you want to be a killjoy and say, "No, you don't get what you'd like" ? We already lost Graham and the Lieze twins, and Hayate's complex relationship with that, forever ruining that particular relationship. We don't have, and never will, Chrono and Hayate chatting it up and connecting as friends over a shared loss (they both lost someone to the book) We don't have Chrono and Fate. We barely have Fate and Lindy And you want them all those potential relationships to go to hell, because one relationship that has already gotten TONS of development, and will get TONS more, can't even give up a few minutes? |
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2013-03-29, 11:56 | Link #1042 | ||||||||||||||||||
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If your perspective is "The reunion should have been handled like it was in the A's TV show", then that calls for a major re-working of the entire first half of the movie narrative. Simply slicing and dicing 40 seconds here, and a couple minutes there, is no longer enough to be the focal point of discussion. You basically have to go right back to the drawing board for the first half of the narrative. In which case, it would be more productive if you were to lay out a sequence of plot points, how long each would be, and what you'd include in each of them, until you reach a point where you could say "From this point onward, I stick with what the movie showed". I will admit this would be a lot of work, so I can understand it, and would not fault you over, opting not to follow up on this point. Nonetheless, if your argument is "Let's handle the Nanoha/Fate reunion like the TV show did", then laying out new plot points like this would be helpful. Quote:
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Showing Nanoha waking up, freshening up, looking forward to meeting Fate that day, leaving home to run off to meet her - Yes, that's all important. But while watching this two minute or so scene, I noticed that it is slow paced. A really good editor could maintain what's good and effective about it, and still chop 40 or so seconds off of it, I think. Quote:
Ultimately, even the extended audience for the Nanoha movie are going to be thoroughly dominated by anime fans. And, like it or not, modern anime fans tend to go more for simplified plots with lots of great/wonderful character moments than a masterpiece plot that is more about story than characters. In some ways, this is an uncomfortable place for me to be arguing from, as I typically don't think that plots get enough credit/focus in modern anime. Usually, I'm on your side of the plot/'pandering to fans' argument. Because the balance in many anime shows is heavily skewed to the 'pandering' side. Which is why the umbrage over the relatively minimal pandering in this movie surprises me so. I can think of numerous anime shows/movies that pander far harder than this one did. Quote:
Imagine the following... World's Finest: Joker's Winning Hand It's a superhero movie. The main plot of the movie is that The Joker has recruited the Royal Flush gang into helping him wreck havoc on a national scale. Batman and Superman are forced to team up to try to stop him! Joker is using stolen Lexcorp technology to mentally manipulate the Royal Flush gang and give them false memories that push them into bad decisions. Now, the core characters in the story are really Ace and the other Royal Flush members (Ace being analogous to Hayate; the Royal Flush gang to the Wolkenritter). They are to be redeemed in this story from Joker's control. This is their story. They end up joining The Justice League at the end of the movie. Jim Gordon and Barbara Gordon are also in the movie. Their wife/mother is killed in the opening scene of the movie by the mentally manipulated Royal Flush Gang. The conflict of the story pits Batman and Superman (and, at the very end, with the help of Jim Gordon, Barbara Gordon, and the entire GCPD) against Joker and The Royal Flush Gang. You can think of Joker as being analogous to The Book of Darkness, or at least its defense program. Without Batman and Superman's involvement, the Joker wins. Totally. The movie is obviously pitched first and foremost to Batman and Superman fans. Now, final question: Are Batman and Superman vital to the movie's plot? My answer - Yes, definitely. And so are Fate and Nanoha vital to this movie's plot. Now, how important is Jim and Barbara Gordon's visit to their mother/wife's gravesite at the end of film? How much focus do you think it needs to make the plot work? And who do you think are the main draws of this movie - Batman and Superman, or Jim and Barbara Gordon? Who you think your average movie-goer most wants to see scenes of? Quote:
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I don't think any potential sequel to "World's Finest: Joker's Winning Hand" would benefit much from cutting heavily into Batman and Superman's screen-time. Since that could, you know, hurt the commercial and fan reception of the film. Quote:
But I'm going to make a confession here - Just as I think you find vague lesbianism between two nine-year old girls creepy, I worry about the potential for Chrono/Fate to be portrayed in accordance with the modern anime craze of "cute younger sister that may or may not have sexual longing for her older brother". Seriously, given anime's extreme difficulty in portraying a sibling relationship in the light of platonic, familial love, I do worry about what might come of greater Chrono/Fate focus. There's enough brother-sister combos that are portrayed with a lot of sexual tension. I don't necessarily want another one. Quote:
Perhaps this is one area where we differ - I think that the continuation/development of something is just as important as the origin/beginnings of something. This is why I see legitimacy in, and arguably even need, for more NanoFate development in this movie. To show that what began is genuinely continuing. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-29 at 12:20. |
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2013-03-29, 20:18 | Link #1043 |
Left for TFF
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Like I said, this movie suffers heavily from "love it or hate it".
How about we just end it there? Because, Triple_R, Demi., Kaijo, this movie is really bringing out the worst in myself and you three. It's well past the point where we start attacking each other (Demi. calling me a troll for example for expressing a consistent opinion on the only board that will allow me to do so about a movie I really dislike, or Kris saying that I was the only one who didn't think the movie was amazing due to the graphics, though that's not an attack, just pointing it out). So, let's just cut it here. You either love it. Or you hate it. That... Pretty much sums up all the arguments. Since we seem to be unable to get any middle ground with what to cut out (as any cuts to ANY NanoFate time seem to be "highly unfair"), we should just drop it. In fact, challenge time for Demi., Triple_R and Kaijo... How would you change the movie, what scenes would you edit out, what would you add in... To make the movie more appealing to a broader audience, not just the Fate and NanoFate fans.
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2013-03-30, 05:45 | Link #1046 | |
Senior Member
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I don't disagree with the idea of more screen-time for Lindy/Chrono. I do see the potential benefit of getting more screen-time for them. However, there's certain prices I wouldn't be willing to pay to achieve that. When people talk about removing scenes to add different hypothetical scenes, people are essentially doing a cost-benefit analysis in their mind. People could agree on "the benefit", but disagree on "the cost", leading to a disagreement on whether or not the changes would be worth it. There is an inescapable element of subjectivity here. I think this is primarily what is going on here. Since I more or less agree with Kaijo's assessment of "the benefit" of more Lindy/Chrono focus, but disagree with Kaijo's assessment of "the cost" of some of his suggested edits, I'm looking for different ways to gain that "benefit" while paying a lesser "cost" to get there. In other words, I've suggested different cuts. To be more direct and specific about it, I think we can shave off about 3 to 4 minutes worth of content without having to significantly affect NanoFate or Fate. And with those added 3 to 4 minutes, there is your extended Chrono/Lindy gravesite scene. There is your closure for them. Beyond that, I'm not sure how I would edit/re-cut the movie. I do see how the initial action scene could be improved, and on the whole, I do prefer how Nanoha and Fate's reunion went in the TV show to how it went in the movie. However, that would require major editing work to the first half of the movie, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to take the time to fully thought experiment that. I mean, Kaijo is right about how we're just talking about hypotheticals here. Love it or hate it, the movie is done, and it is what it is. However, it really is a shame that you didn't enjoy the movie more, Nanya. It sucks that there wasn't more in it that you could take something positive out of it. Still, IIRC, a lot of your issues are with the action scenes side of things. When it comes to modern action scenes in anime, I think there's a sliding scale of WhizBang! sheer technical merit vs. Theatrical Combat Charm where it's all about the characters. This is brute force/power/speed/chaotic feel vs. the action slows down to let a character shine with a showing of grit, determination, resolve, and/or finesse. Nanoha A's the TV show leaned towards Theatrical Combat Charm, while this movie leans towards WhizBang! This is a largely subjective thing, as some people totally love the Whizbang! approach to action scenes and may find TCC slow and relatively boring. On the flip side, some people love what TCC does for characters and may find the brute force/power/speed/chaotic feel of WhizBang! to be kind of soulless and "style over substance" after awhile. I think there's a happy medium on this sliding scale, and this movie is just inside of it, but it does lean towards WhizBang. I get the impression that you greatly prefer the TCC approach, so naturally the action scenes are dissatisfying to you. Personally, I'd also prefer a bit more TCC in the movie, so I'd probably edit the action scenes some to reflect that, which would likely make them more pleasing to you. Yes, I would have liked to have seen more "Divine Busters!" and "Starlite Breakters!" and Nanoha shouting like Leonidas from 300. So I probably would have put that in the film. Edit: To make it more clear what I mean by WhizBang! vs. Theatrical Combat Charm, let me show you an example of each... This is WhizBang! Spoiler for Kara no Kyoukai action scene:
Notice the sheer speed, intensity, power, and sense of brute force in this scene. The choreography is fairly complex with Shiki flying all over the place and twisting about a whole lot. However, the action scene never slows down much, and there's not a lot this scene can tell you about the characters. But then, given that Shiki is basically fighting zombies here, this is an action scene that's best off being the WhizBang! way that it is. They're just mindless zombies, after all. And many would consider this a great action scene. This is Theatrical Combat Charm. Spoiler for Superman vs. Darkseid:
Now, yes, this scene obviously has a lot of brute force and power in it. However, the choreography is very simple, and very easy to follow. It's a few punches (including one epic one), the villain slowly crashing through buildings, and a double axe-handle for the finish. For some, this is too slow and simple to count as a great action scene. But for others, the epicness of it is what makes it a great action scene. And Superman's biggest fans absolutely love it to death. Because, as is consistently the case for TCC, this is a "Character Shines" moment as much as it is an action scene one.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-30 at 06:22. |
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2013-03-31, 18:12 | Link #1047 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
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As far as I feel about the movie, there should be a extra 4koma or short on Lt. Colonel Hayate's point of view after watching the movie asking herself, "why? Why did they do that to my children?! they allowed Fate's mother to be not be as monstrous dammit!"
Cue Wolkenritter being redeployed to fringe systems that didn't have access to the movie due to concerned TSAB citizens from core worlds sending letters to Public Relations asking them to not let the Wolkenritter destroy their planet like psychopaths. |
2013-03-31, 18:37 | Link #1049 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
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The Wolkenritter in movie 2nd look a whole lot worse when their memories are a lot more intact and yet they don't stop and certainly don't respond to diplomacy. They're not monstrous but they're certainly not examples of sound judgement. |
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2013-03-31, 18:49 | Link #1050 |
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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Well, Precia was still a raving lunatic, and only during her final moments did she realize how badly she messed everything up.
Wolkenritter only cared about Hayate. But I don't recall them ever knowing that once the book is completed it will very likely kill their master (why would they complete it then?) -- But they never did kill anyone, in A's at least. Point being, I don't think they were anywhere near the level of villainous as Precia was. The Wolkenritter were antagonists, while Precia was a Villain and Fate the antagonist.
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2013-03-31, 19:05 | Link #1051 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Except that Precia is dead, and it's a public fact that the Wolkenritter are working as active duty members of the TSAB.
People who were going to go full speed ahead with the plan that ended up killing off all of their prior masters /and/ knew about NW. That casts them in considerably worse light than they actually were in. I am not saying that Precia was redeemed or a saint in the movie 1st, but she was given a far better shake at things than how it actually went. |
2013-03-31, 19:21 | Link #1052 | |
Did nothing wrong
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2013-03-31, 22:29 | Link #1053 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Hey, so I'm watching the movie on Youtube. No subtitles, but would I honestly need them?
So, Yuuno casts an all-new spell: Caging Circle! ...I'm not sure what to think. It seems to incidentally wipe out a number of the Beast's tentacles just in getting set up, but it's not clear WHY. Is getting hit by this thing like getting hit with a Divine Buster? Given how the screen subtly shakes with each obliteration, there's clearly some force behind the ring's closure. But if so, why couldn't Yuuno cast a Divine Buster? At least with Chain Bind, it made sense that the chains could cut if pulled hard enough. That sort of physical damage also made it clear why Yuuno would normally not use Chain Bind in that fashion against opponents like Fate and Arf. More, Caging Circle doesn't seem to do all that much caging, except in serving as an anchor for Arf's Chain Bind. Which is kind of cool in itself, as it hints at the possibility of cooperative magic, where techniques are composed of multiple spells cast in concert by teams. It (and the dual-forced teleport) also alludes to the fact that Yuuno taught Arf new tricks, and that they seem to have learned how to work together as a team. So, relationship development! Awesome. (The team-teleport also seems to surprise the Arthra's bridge-crew with how fast it works, and Shamal didn't help that spell at all.) I can't say that Caging Circle actually DID anything on its own, though. The Beast stays put inside the circle even after the chain binds break, without even trying to test the circle's ring. It's not clear if the Beast is ignoring the ring as insignificant or deciding that it's too much trouble to challenge. It just moves forward a couple of steps when breaking out of the chains, stops short of the ring, and resorts to long-range attacks. But I noticed that EVERYONE's attacks avoid striking the cage's ring. Vita hammers down through it. Fate's first slash sails over it. Signum shoots under it. Fate's second slash --which comes from outside the Caging Circle-- is what finally breaks the spell. Conspicuously, THIS is when the Beast finally moves out of that spot, if only to float upwards now that it's lost its legs. So maybe the Caging Circle was really powerful in the specific task of "keep the target from leaving the circle" while otherwise powerless to prevent the target from moving in any other way? Oh, and Zafira displays his beam-firing punches from the video game; Raging Wolf Fang. It could even be considered a response to a long-range attack against him by the Beast. I have to say, I like how Nanoha's initial role is to provide covering fire for Vita so that the Hammer Knight can get into position unmolested. Another nice bit of teamwork; more so than "everyone just hits the monster as hard as they can". Nanoha gets to blast the thing with Starlight Breaker anyway, so why not give her something different and personally appropriate to do before that? Especially when, if she had the time to cast Force Burst / Excellion Buster, she could have just used an early Starlight Breaker. |
2013-03-31, 22:58 | Link #1054 |
Did nothing wrong
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BTW, if I were to edit the movie, I would go with what I was imaging how it should be done before I saw the actual movie.
I'd start the Nanoha vs Vita fight asap after introductions are made. We just need to briefly introduce Hayate, have that scene, have Nanoha introduce herself and what happened previously. Honestly, Vita should be beating the crap out of Nanoha while the opening credits are still fresh. This will involve the audience more. Yes, cut out everything before that and restore Fate intervening with Yuno and Arf. They fight for a bit but the Book is invoked, draining them though Nanoha manages to get her SLB off anyways. This completely sacrifices Chrono, but oh well. You can even have Nanoha and Fate at the sunrise when they recover, thanks to the extra time we gain and then take you can use Fate's body language to indicate the degree of closeness between the two. Fate is distraught, but Nanoha is there for her... wait wtf, didn't A's have that anyways? >.> At this point, we can deal with Fate moving in and having a talk with Lindy. The moment we cut out the Chrono/Grahmn subplot, we can just forget about worldbuilding and just go balls to the wall on these things. The movie made a clear choice to go in that direction, so, no point in trying to backtrack. This quickly establishes all necessary information for a viewer to realize what is going on without prior watching.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-03-31 at 23:09. |
2013-04-01, 03:28 | Link #1055 |
Professor Lech
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Somewhere in Asia
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Ah finally, I get to make an account here.
Greetings fellow Nanoha fans, I'm Hoki. I've been around for some time but this is my first post here. Well then, to the current topic. This movie is better compared to the first (most people would agree with me I hope) and also has some things they improved in the series; like giving an actual name to the corrupted defense program. The fight scenes were awesome... really really awesome!!! though they cut the part where Reinforce bombs Nanoha and Fate with SLB, it did make Nanoha's Excelion Buster charge more awesome! I'm just disappointed that they removed Graham's involvement in the story, since his motivations could be fitted seamlessly with the corrupted defense program going berserk. Fate's rescue of Nanoha from Vita, which is one of the things that made Nanoha A's quite a show was also altered, and that is also a disappointing alteration. Finally, they gave a small chance for Lindy to show she can kick ass, only to abort that... that seriously sucked, since I had wanted to see Lindy vs Wolkenritter. I believe it would've been an awesome action scene. Overall, this movie is very good, and it was worth the wait. |
2013-04-01, 05:43 | Link #1056 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Kind of like how someone good at running isn't automatically good at other sports. That would fit with its name, yes. A cage does not prevent its occupant from moving, it just prevents it from leaving it. |
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