(L) Dragon Ball Super

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by GDB

He can go SSJ2, but not SSJ3. But it doesn't matter, because SSJG is not the next level in that power chain. It's a completely different chain of power.

Isn't super Vegeta an entirely different form to Goku's SSJ2? I think the distinction was made waaay back in the Cell games, as an "ascended Saiyan" form...can't be too sure though, it's been over a decade since.

[GDB]

I'm not talking about that form. He goes SSJ2 as both Majin Vegeta and later when he's fighting Buu (when he has the halo).

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by NovelReader

Can't Vegeta just turn ssj blue and one-shot everyone...........this is painful to watch them lose.

One-shot is a bit over the top. Frost is at least Buu level.

For anyone that wants to dispute this: remember that he held his own against SSJ Goku. Goku's base form has drastically increased in strength and that SSJ is a multiplier, not just a form.

[GDB]

We don't really know how much power Goku was using. He wasn't using God Ki, since otherwise he'd have gone Blue rather than Gold when going SSJ. And once he went SSJ, he completely dominated the fight. I wouldn't call not being knocked out while Goku held back to prevent killing him as "holding his own". Once Piccolo subbed in, he didn't get trashed (even if Frost wasn't going full out).

So I'd probably put Frost somewhere around Majin Vegeta or Mr. Buu's level (so stronger than Super Perfect Cell and less than half of Super Buu/less than Kid Buu). Piccolo's probably somewhere between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell now, closer to the latter.

[Gintokifan22]

Can I ask you guy's a question, why do you hate GT so much yet is fine with this series? It messes up every thing up in the original series if not worse in my opinion. Yes Goku and Pan hogged the screen time but now it's Goku and Vegeta. I don't get it.

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by Gintokifan22

Can I ask you guy's a question, why do you hate GT so much yet is fine with this series? It messes up every thing up in the original series if not worse in my opinion. Yes Goku and Pan hogged the screen time but now it's Goku and Vegeta. I don't get it.

GT was an abomination in every way. We don't even know how Super will end due to it happening before the final manga chapters so there's no room to judge. Super feels more creative than GT and isn't as edgy which is an instant plus.

[RDNexus]

While it's true that GT had as much of drama as DBS has of comedy, I still don't see it as an abomination but as an alternate take to a DBZ follow-up.

[chaos_animagic]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler:

Even more disappointed they turned Piccolo into Vegeta's bitch.

LOL

but seriously tho...

Spoiler:

Piccolo still look weak as heck... he can be damaged easily compared to others who usually deflects attacks, Piccolo can't deflect attacks...

And it was funny how Piccolo said "Yes I am" and Vegeta smirked... lol

[Robotech Master]

Originally Posted by Going Seafoam

One-shot is a bit over the top. Frost is at least Buu level.

For anyone that wants to dispute this: remember that he held his own against SSJ Goku. Goku's base form has drastically increased in strength and that SSJ is a multiplier, not just a form.

The idea that their baseline keeps increasing by dramatic levels and SSJ is just a multiplier of that has long been fan assumption, but never canonically supported.

If anything, Beerus' statement that post-Buu baseline Goku wasn't strong enough to beat Freeza until he used SSJ1 would seem to be evidence against that idea.

It does more or less act as a multiplier, sure, but all of their major power ups have been about making the multiplier itself better/larger, not super charging their baseline. Going from regular SSJ1 to their 'ascended' Super forms, for example, wasn't about making their baselines stronger and thus getting a better SSJ result, but training their bodies to get used to SSJ enough that they could more easily use the form without draining energy and end up gaining more actual power from the SSJ1 transformation in the first place.

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by Robotech Master

The idea that their baseline keeps increasing by dramatic levels and SSJ is just a multiplier of that has long been fan assumption, but never canonically supported.

If anything, Beerus' statement that post-Buu baseline Goku wasn't strong enough to beat Freeza until he used SSJ1 would seem to be evidence against that idea.

It does more or less act as a multiplier, sure, but all of their major power ups have been about making the multiplier itself better/larger, not super charging their baseline. Going from regular SSJ1 to their 'ascended' Super forms, for example, wasn't about making their baselines stronger and thus getting a better SSJ result, but training their bodies to get used to SSJ enough that they could more easily use the form without draining energy and end up gaining more actual power from the SSJ1 transformation in the first place.

We're talking about a canon that Toriyama retcons left and right. Piccolo > Frieza on Namek. Frost > Piccolo. That's all we can base it on now. It's no secret that Dragon Ball has inconsistencies left and right, so just roll with it for now.

[Archon_Wing]

Bleh, Piccolo. >.> Not too happy.

As for the power thing maybe Goku was hiding his power in base form like everyone seems to like doing.

Still it seems to make some degree sense that each "version" has its limitations and a new level of transformation was needed to advance which is why absorbing god Ki into their base was the only way to really step up to the level of the gods. SSJ was needed to take down Frieza, it was strongly implied that only SSj2+ was going to beat Cell regardless of how much they trained so much that Goku didn't even bother entering the time chamber, and SSJ3 was needed to even stand against Buu. Also, you have Vegeta here in super stating that they're at the limits of their power and that training isn't going to be that big of a deal.

So it seems to me that they need a breakthrough to reach the next level and training offers diminished XP at this point.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Isn't super Vegeta an entirely different form to Goku's SSJ2? I think the distinction was made waaay back in the Cell games, as an "ascended Saiyan" form...can't be too sure though, it's been over a decade since.

Super Vegeta was just another take on SSj1, but forcing out more power at the cost of energy strain. Anything before Gohan's SSj2 against Cell was a variation of Super Saiyan 1 and for the sake of simplicity you can just ignore-- funny enough SSj2 isn't named until later on so it truly doesn't matter too much but it's basically the correct way to ascend past a Super Saiyan. The ways that Vegeta and Trunks pursued of just bulking up and increasing power were dead ends. The correct path was Goku's way of mastering Super Saiyan until it became as natural as not transforming at all.

[Nvis]

Originally Posted by GDB

I'm not talking about that form. He goes SSJ2 as both Majin Vegeta and later when he's fighting Buu (when he has the halo).

I don't remember Vegeta turning SSJ2 after Majin powerup. He didn't have the electricity around him when fighting Kid Buu.

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by Nvis

I don't remember Vegeta turning SSJ2 after Majin powerup. He didn't have the electricity around him when fighting Kid Buu.

Spoiler for From Kid Buu fight:

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Nvis

I don't remember Vegeta turning SSJ2 after Majin powerup. He didn't have the electricity around him when fighting Kid Buu.

Didn't Toei like to randomly forget the lightning for SSj2?

Maybe that's why they'd rather just have stock.

Also, when Vegeta fought Goku; he commented Ssj2 Goku was at least as strong as Gohan when the later fought Cell. He didn't seem too surprised either. If anything that seems to just be setting the bar. Vegeta used to be the super jelly type so if Goku did anything surprising like whip out SSj3, he would have a mental breakdown. (And Goku was right about that)

He also saw older Gohan as pathetic too. Gohan was weaker than he was as a kid, but could still be Ssj2. Vegeta scoffs at Dabura and thinks he would be an easy win while Gohan was having a hard time due to lack of training. Meanwhile, Vegeta's most likely been training for 7 years; it just seems highly unlikely he wasn't able to bridge the gap between him and Gohan.

All of this suggests Vegeta passed that landmark before turning Maijin. He's stronger than Ssj2 adult Gohan, and a bit past Cell Games Gohan. But he needed to Maijin boost to be on par with Ssj2 Goku.

[ImperialKnight]

I'm a little confused.

Given the fact that Piccolo was able to weather the attacks and dodge them with relative ease was it really necessary to use his special beam cannon?

Anyways since both Piccolo and Goku were "beaten" by the poison that Frost used which meant he cheated could both of them still participate in the tournament? Seems silly if only Goku was allowed and not Piccolo.

On that matter given how Goku dominated the fight against Frost how well could he stand up to Vegeta?

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Going Seafoam

GT was an abomination in every way. We don't even know how Super will end due to it happening before the final manga chapters so there's no room to judge. Super feels more creative than GT and isn't as edgy which is an instant plus.

GT actually had a cool concept (they even brought back the Sayans tail, Oozaru's power and Dragon Balls actually were a big part of the main plot even as the main villains..lol) and the main reason it was horrible was due to it's poor execution of ideas. Retarded powerlevels (even worst than the ones in the original manga) and weak OST did not help it either. I also like Super's idea of using different universes and Toryiama's original characters are always fun to watch, but like GT it's just poorly done with one of the most retarded animation i ever seen in this industry. What's the point of watching an anime based on battles when said battles are so anti-climatic with none of it's former brutality and spectacular combos? That said, GT and Super are almost at the same level at being bad for me. Anyway, for now it's dropped but i will still be checking the forum to see if anything will change regarding to it's current situation.

[Kanon]

The main reason I like Super more than GT is Vegeta: 1. No mustache 2. He caught up to Goku really fast.

Still pissed neither anime had him go SSJ3 though.

[Stark700]

Apparently, there's no new episode this week.

[NeutralZero]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The main reason I like Super more than GT is Vegeta: 1. No mustache 2. He caught up to Goku really fast.

Still pissed neither anime had him go SSJ3 though.

Considering Vegeta manage to acquire the SSG through hard work it is possible he can turn into SSJ3
kinda like Gotenks that goes from SSJ1 to SSJ3 form but we never see his SSJ2 form
But considering the huge drawback of that 3rd form... it is better to stick to the normal form and the SSJ1 & 2 form

[Sixth]

The only thing I like about the DBS is the whole stamina issue. The stamina is actually a relevant stat now...and yeah, Vegeta's fanservice. He got a lot of love in this anime compare to the original manga.