2013-12-29, 13:38 | Link #1061 | |
Riding the Ange Express
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sunriseland
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Where she's at in the post epilogue, it makes sense that she would want to carry on Haruto's will, but like other people have said before, Haruto wouldn't have wanted her to pilot Hito and go through what he went through (losing his runes, memories) But that's null if they found an alternative way to supply the Valvraves with Runes, but we don't know at the moment.
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2013-12-29, 14:54 | Link #1062 | |
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
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Our opinions aside, it was quite obvious that the majority of viewers would react quite strongly. What does the genre have to do with it? Well, that comes down to understanding your audience. Look at any number of popular mecha or sci fi shows of recent years (or even in general). How did the audience receive characters? What did characters get flak for? Who was popular and who wasn't- and what criticism did they receive? You'll probably find things like - acts of disloyalty/betrayal (perceived or real, understandable in the situation or not) - passivity, having things handed to them for no good reason, being easily forgiven despite their failures - having good stuff happen to you despite not doing much to deserve it being factors in a lot of them. People are extremely unforgiving towards these types of characters, no matter if their actions were understandable, if they were under pressure or not. Some examples off the top of my head: - Ranka - Cagalli, Relena, Fllay, Quess, generations of Gundam girls - Mikono - the Black Knights in general/ Ogi, Suzaku (kind of), Nina, Shirley, probably half the cast of CG Heck, it doesn't even have to be just the mecha genre, just take anime in general. Remember Sayaka. She doesn't deserve the crap she gets, yet she does. Anime viewers hate for a lot less than what Shoko did, so really, the audience reacting this way isn't out of the blue and they would have to be completely oblivious if they didn't anticipate this- which quite clearly they are, since they didn't see this coming for some bizarre reason. But it says a lot about how much attention they pay to the target audience, namely not enough. They should have known that people would probably not take this development well and that they needed to do something substantial to redeem her, but they failed. They gave us nothing, so like you said, I think it's understandable if people consider her character ruined now, which is a shame. While I had to conclude that I dislike her in the end, I had really hoped they'd find a way to redeem her, but if anything they made it worse- showing her with her face in her hands for the entire finale and just handing her the very immortality she rejected. They only rubbed it in and made her look hypocritical on top of everything else now, which I doubt they indended... :/
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2013-12-31, 22:15 | Link #1063 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I don't like Sayaka because a lot of her problems is her own doing.
It's all in her head. She's the one that chooses to make the worst out of her situation and go on a self destructive path. Haruto is like that too, but he has more excuses to brood
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2013-12-31, 22:18 | Link #1064 | |
Senior Member
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In any event, I think you're being way too hard on Sayaka and not giving her a fair shake. It's honestly ridiculous to say it's "all in her head". Most of the problems she faced were very much of an external nature, and this is obviously so. It wasn't "all in her head". And it's simply not fair or accurate to say that someone "chooses to make the worst out of a situation" when they understandably despair at being faced with an objectively very bad situation, just like most normal people would. I also don't see where Haruto has "more excuses to brood". His issues and Sayaka's are actually very similar, and about equal in severity (well, up to the ARUS Purge episode at least).
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-12-31 at 23:57. |
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2014-01-01, 11:12 | Link #1066 |
Senior Member
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Just so people are aware, I took this discussion up with Key Board via PMs, since I don't think the Sashinami Shouko character thread is the appropriate place for it.
But if anybody wants to know my take on Hartuo/Sayaka comparisons, just PM me, and I'll share them with you.
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2014-01-01, 17:35 | Link #1067 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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I almost agree with SkullFaerie that I can't believe that the writers didn't anticipate all the hate Shoko got. To the point that given her whole development they did it deliberately.
What did go overboard to me was the treason. If the writers decided to go with some politic mistake that took module-77 to that point it would have been different, I think. But betrayal is the worst thing she could have done, despite every extenuating circumstances we can count in her favor. And what if Haruto and L-Elf died due to that choice of her? Everything would have ended thanks to that. It's not happened, but it had a high possibility to happen. That the weight of her choice. The biggest I'd say. And I'm not even counting the interpersonal treason. Surely, the writing discontinuities and narrative problems didn't help. In any case, FWIW, I instead had always a different take on Shoko. One of the things I hate in anime is when the story tries to sell you a certain character, that clearly has not any skills in a certain field, being able to succeed in that field without the due efforts and what not. So from my point of view I could never take seriously Shoko's leadership skills. And I have to say that the hints (or can we call them evidences?) were all there in season one. From the undressing threat to the jingle bell attempt, culminating with the election speech. So my next expectation was a bloodbath ending for the S1 that never happened thanks to L-Elf. So the moment Shoko cracked and the bloodbath happened to me it was like a confirmation and conclusion of what I thought about her. So my hate faded partially away. What I'm trying to say is that looking at her key moments in the story she was the wrongest person (because she did have that ability to engage people, without the proper licence to use it) in the wrongest position (to take vital decisions not having the ability nor the experience to take them). IIRC it was not her to decide to go for the elections, but L-Elf, so I think that she is somehow innocent, it not for the betrayal. If not, I really can't explain her praying in the final moments. Bar the time-skip. I will not comment on that.
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2014-01-02, 00:18 | Link #1068 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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The massacre in episode 21 is also never portrayed as being Shoko's fault for all that people like to insist otherwise. There was no commentary about how the students should've been armed, no one blamed her for holding the conference. Quote:
Last edited by ~BC~; 2014-01-02 at 00:38. |
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2014-01-02, 05:41 | Link #1069 | |||
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Join Date: May 2004
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Speaking of L-Elf, he had to do with it. Didn't he give Satomi a script to follow? Didn't he take away Shoko from the bridge deck? He organized their defense lines. It's just that Cain outsmarted him. Then the Prue's migraines, due to stress in fighting against Haruto and L-Elf IIRC. From my point of view the fact that a high school, even supported by VVV, survived to that kind of attach is everything but a defeat. For that reason the real bloodbath that happened later felt (to me) strictly related to this first event. What was missing from the equation in that second event? L-Elf. That's because L-Elf was the solely reason they went that far into the story. Considering even how much worthless Haruto had been until that point. He was pivotal for everything. Much more than one could think. Quote:
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Surely all the holes and missing points in Shoko's development, (it felt like they cut away hers and Saki's parts completely from the show), didn't help, but still they decided to show really odds scenes to depict her.
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2014-01-02, 07:14 | Link #1070 | |
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He won the battle, and Module-77 lost the battle. But you can lose a battle without losing the entire war. If I was L-Elf or Haruto, there's no way I'd feel "victorious" after this. I doubt that they did either.
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2014-01-02, 07:15 | Link #1071 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Malaysia
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2014-01-02, 12:23 | Link #1072 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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I clearly exaggerated saying "victory". Still as an observer I consider their outcome as positive in the economy of the war. Even more taking into account what kiak666 said (I forgot about that), that basically implies how they were lucky to survive. Even having L-Elf on their side. Quote:
Still, I keep thinking that L-elf is the true reason.
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2014-01-02, 16:28 | Link #1073 |
Joseph Defense Squad
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mars
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Arya, what you're describing is sort of what I was hoping they would do with Shoko after episode 21. I was hoping the point of her character would be to take a bit of a dig at the "nice but objectively unqualified princess who comes to political power for a random reason and magically succeeds at everything" stereotype.
That's part of why I was so disappointed that we got nothing, to the point that the writers seem entirely unaware of not just this angle but the problems with her character in general.
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2014-01-03, 08:42 | Link #1074 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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...No one has to give a heavy-handed delivery of a message when actions speak louder than words: Nanami, forcing herself back to her feet even if she's injured, to put an order to that ship while Shoko did nothing but look aghast ties up with her adult responsibility as teacher. She committed a huge mistake to run an election for the position she was filling before episode 10: these were children who had no idea to how to communicate with each others let alone try to play politicians.
Look at how Kibukawa and Nanami communicated as the slaughter happened in episode 21, they weren't antagonizing each other or pointing fingers about lies, they sort out their priorities and talked things, trusting their judgment. There was no shadow of a doubt, or time to think about their personal drama. These are adults vs children.
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2014-01-11, 14:06 | Link #1075 | |
Deploying Funnel Cakes
Join Date: Jan 2008
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He was directly linked to Pino, unlike the others. His death doesn't make sense. One can argue that the previous test pilot died because she didn't feed regularly. L-Elf agreed to get harvested. And Haruto died while mind-linked with L-elf, which means that L-elf should have been splitting the rune load. Shoko would have been fine if she fed on humans. |
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