(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by rg4619

I'd be surprised if there's a particularly elaborate story for Yuuko, although you never know.

Structurally, her purpose is the same as Himura's - that is, to tie the various love stories together. According to minori, ef comprises of four principal chapters out of a total of six (Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Epilogue?), so some kind of epilogue revolving around Yuuko and Yuu will certainly be presented. However, I'm not expecting any lengthy developments, even if a few surprising revelations may be in store.

I'm not sure she's entirely human at this point actually...

But she's certainly a lot more interesting than any of the other characters we've seen by far.

From the opening sequence in the game at least, it looks like her ending will be rather bittersweet - with probably some sort of happy reunion after the credits.

[Kaoru Chujo]

It has probably been posted here before, when we were discussing this point, but someone on Megatokyo posted this article about amnesia that makes it clear Chihiro's condition, bizarre as it is, is possible in real life.

As for Yuu and Yuuko, the other characters are so deeply interesting to me that I really don't care whether I find out more about them or not. My heart is already full. The dea ex machina Yuuko has so far just been more of a mystical decoration than essential to the plot, in my opinion.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

It has probably been posted here before, when we were discussing this point, but someone on Megatokyo posted this article about amnesia that makes it clear Chihiro's condition, bizarre as it is, is possible in real life.

It's called anterograde amnesia. Chihiro is lucky to have 13 hours, since some of these people's memory spans are measured in minutes and have been like this for decades (imagine looking into the mirror and seeing a 50 year old version of yourself, Chihiro's crash has got nothing on that). Props to the original scenario writer for accurately depicting this. She retains her writing skills honed to professional level, but can't remember events about the past.

According to Wiki on ef, Yuuko hasn't even been fleshed out in the game, so don't count on it.

[zoot]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Spoiler for episode 10:

I'm however, vastly less fond of Miyako's scene. The phone card decreasing to 0 was nothing but annoyance. Not only you can actually see their feelings aside of their voices, but the annoying switch between the scenery and the numbers, and the horrible beep noises almost defeated my patience.

Spoiler for episode 10:

I had to stop watching the screen, because the flashing was so distracting I couldn't keep up with the dialog. (I lost it completely anyway, once Hiro got angry.) I'm sure it was just intended to add tension, a bit of an experiment; I don't think it did badly at that, but it was pretty annoying. The previous insane-phone bit was a lot better.

I'm still of the opinion that there's no way Miyako would let Hiro remain friendly with Kei (as ep 10 leaves things), at least the Miyako portrayed in the anime. Her threat--"I will erase your existence", it sounded like--seems tied to her own deep fear of disappearing, as the worst threat she can make, probably worse than "I'll kill you (but at least you'll be remembered)".

I guess the batshit-insane aspect of Miyako was played up compared to the game, which obviously contributes to this interpretation; I have to judge the anime on its own. They've gone to major lengths to convince us how crazy Miyako is, how deep her fears of disappearing are--in my opinion, she took Hiro to bed just to keep Kei from taking him from her and to keep him from leaving her; Hiro running off to talk to Kei (as she runs away screaming) is enough to trigger her pulling out of his life. Maybe Hiro and Kei are still amicable, but I can't imagine they can remain friendly. She's the threat of him disappearing, and Miyako wants to disappear her first.

So, I almost feel sorry for Hiro for picking the crazy chick. Of course, it's hard not to feel bad for Kei, but that bit of sadism at the end of ep 7 dulls that just a little.

Great lead-up and "take me home" line, though: "take me to where there's drawing paper" ...

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by zoot

Spoiler for episode 10:

I'm still of the opinion that there's no way Miyako would let Hiro remain friendly with Kei (as ep 10 leaves things), at least the Miyako portrayed in the anime. Her threat--"I will erase your existence", it sounded like--seems tied to her own deep fear of disappearing, as the worst threat she can make, probably worse than "I'll kill you (but at least you'll be remembered)".

Spoiler for ep 10 ?:

Huh ? Since when has Miyako ever said anything oh the sort ? The only one who has made a threat of similar notion has been Kei.

Originally Posted by zoot

Spoiler:

I guess the batshit-insane aspect of Miyako was played up compared to the game, which obviously contributes to this interpretation; I have to judge the anime on its own. They've gone to major lengths to convince us how crazy Miyako is, how deep her fears of disappearing are--in my opinion, she took Hiro to bed just to keep Kei from taking him from her and to keep him from leaving her; Hiro running off to talk to Kei (as she runs away screaming) is enough to trigger her pulling out of his life. Maybe Hiro and Kei are still amicable, but I can't imagine they can remain friendly. She's the threat of him disappearing, and Miyako wants to disappear her first.

Spoiler for ep9+10:

Sorry, but this part sounds pretty much hyperbole. There isn't anything even remotely close to "batshit-insanity" in Miyako. Nor is she crazy by any stretch of the definition.

Regarding her "taking Hiro to bed" - she has fallen for him, and this is the natural step any romantic relationship will take sooner or later, depending on both people in question. As far as Hiro and Miyako are concerned their feelings are mutual, so talking about who "took" whom to bed is very crude and inappropriate in said situation.

[zoot]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler for ep 10 ?:

Huh ? Since when has Miyako ever said anything oh the sort ? The only one who has made a threat of similar notion has been Kei.

Spoiler for ep 10 ?:

I heard it wrong. Thanks for the correction.

That's too bad. It makes the line so much less interesting.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler for ep9+10:

Sorry, but this part sounds pretty much hyperbole. There isn't anything even remotely close to "batshit-insanity" in Miyako. Nor is she crazy by any stretch of the definition.

Spoiler for ep9+10:

Crazy is what I got from the first telephone bit. Interpretations will vary, of course (and an interpretation is all I'm offering).

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler for ep9+10:

Regarding her "taking Hiro to bed" - she has fallen for him, and this is the natural step any romantic relationship will take sooner or later, depending on both people in question. As far as Hiro and Miyako are concerned their feelings are mutual, so talking about who "took" whom to bed is very crude and inappropriate in said situation.

Spoiler for ep9+10:

It's the character (in this interpretation, which does largely break down after correcting that line) being crude; I chose language to explain that. I don't think the explaining itself is crude.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by zoot

Spoiler for ep9+10:

It's the character (in this interpretation, which does largely break down after correcting that line) being crude; I chose language to explain that. I don't think the explaining itself is crude.

Spoiler for ep9+10:

I believe your interpretation of her actions to be incorrect She slept with Hiro simply because she likes/loves him, not in order to spite Kei and/or to keep Hiro to herself. Such might be the side effect, but not the reason for her willingness to sleep with him. I think you might be sort of applying Kei's mindset to her while evaluating her actions - Miyako's focus has always been Hiro; It was Kei who took actions primarily with her "rival" in mind (Though there really was never much of a rivalry to begin with), not Miyako

[zoot]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler for ep9+10:

I believe your interpretation of her actions to be incorrect :) She slept with Hiro simply because she likes/loves him, not in order to spite Kei and/or to keep Hiro to herself. Such might be the side effect, but not the reason for her willingness to sleep with him. I think you might be sort of applying Kei's mindset to her while evaluating her actions - Miyako's focus has always been Hiro; It was Kei who took actions primarily with her "rival" in mind (Though there really was never much of a rivalry to begin with), not Miyako ;)

Spoiler for ep9+10:

I agree that it's wrong, after correcting the line before. I think it makes it less interesting, but oh well. I still think Miyako is pretty nuts, though. :) It also pushes the sympathy meter further away from Kei and towards Miyako.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by zoot

Spoiler for ep9+10:

I agree that it's wrong, after correcting the line before. I think it makes it less interesting, but oh well. I still think Miyako is pretty nuts, though. It also pushes the sympathy meter further away from Kei and towards Miyako.

Spoiler for ep 10:

I still don't see how you justify the claim that Miyako is "pretty nuts"/"bat-shit insane". While she's definitely got abandonment and commitment issues, the series did a very good job of justifying it (even though it is a bit extreme). I had never doubted the reasons for her mental state and the phone call elucidated the issue even further with the grades, cooking, and parents. No matter what she did, no one even tried to reach out and connect with her.

Her romance with Hirono can move so fast without seeming rushed or forced is because of her issues. She knows that Hirono is impossibly trying to juggle profession and study, yet he always makes time for her. It's really an integral part of her character.

Spoiler for Countdown from 100:

I really liked what they did with the time left in the Dango Daikazoku phone card. True, I did lose track of the convo several times because of my poor Japanese and had to go back, but I thought it really just underscores the urgency and importance of those last seconds between Hirono and Miyako. Defining the time they have left numerically just leaves so much more impact than the vague notion that Miyako is leaving soon. It also goes well with the underlying idea in the ep that you can't procrastinate on decision-making and do things in a half assed manner.

My second favorite scene after Kei's, which is strikingly similar to Aya's confession in Ichigo 100%.

[zoot]

Spoiler for ep 7:

(What, it wasn't blank then. I'm just blind, then.)

Reexamining, this adds some depth in the other direction: given Miyako's fear of disappearing, it explains how serious of a threat this would be to her; it may have been what triggered the breakdown in ep 7.

(Of course, I might be misinterpreting. The sub I had said "I will wipe you out"--that seems like a reasonable smoothing over of the original line. Maybe someone with more experience at the language can confirm or correct the more literal interpretation, "I will erase your existence".)

Originally Posted by tripperazn

Spoiler for ep 10:

I still don't see how you justify the claim that Miyako is "pretty nuts"/"bat-shit insane". While she's definitely got abandonment and commitment issues, the series did a very good job of justifying it (even though it is a bit extreme). I had never doubted the reasons for her mental state and the phone call elucidated the issue even further with the grades, cooking, and parents. No matter what she did, no one even tried to reach out and connect with her.

Spoiler for ep 10:

I'm not saying it's not explained, but explained nuts is still nuts. I think (re: previous message) the corrected threat mitigates this, though: she may not be "nuts" ordinarily, but rather it was set off by the threat that probably hit more deeply than expected.

(I wish this forum software could spoiler tag a whole subthread.)

[Skyfall]

There is no need to spoiler tag information from episodes that have been fansubbed already

Originally Posted by zoot

(What, it wasn't blank then. I'm just blind, then.)

Reexamining, this adds some depth in the other direction: given Miyako's fear of disappearing, it explains how serious of a threat this would be to her; it may have been what triggered the breakdown in ep 7.

(Of course, I might be misinterpreting. The sub I had said "I will wipe you out"--that seems like a reasonable smoothing over of the original line. Maybe someone with more experience at the language can confirm or correct the more literal interpretation, "I will erase your existence".)

Exactly - these exact words said by Kei, while obviously overdramatized, were the trigger of Miyako's insecurity that eventually led to her breakdown. As you have noticed she has been keeping distance from close contact with other people ever since she got abandoned by her parents. Hiro is the first person she has approached in years, but the words said by Kei triggered her abandonment issues - the thought she might get abandoned by Hiro. Coupled with the fact Hiro was not answering her phone calls this led to her breakdown in ep7. Yes, it is not "logical" to think he would actually abandon her just like that, but she can't help it - breakdowns are not something one can chose to control.

That said, saying she is "crazy" or "nuts" is stepping over the line and heavily exaggerating the gravity of her situation. She has her issues regarding a specific subject, but as we can see it is far from the norm for her and got triggered only once (and she got over it very quickly) , during very specific circumstances. She falls absurdly short of any actual mental disorder.

(On a side note - please don't double post - use the edit button if you want to add something to your previous posts).

[tripperazn]

Skyfall just explained my point much better. Being "insane" is caused by internal factors, such as brain chemistry. Miyako was merely reacting to her circumstances the way any normal human being would.

[Klashikari]

I'm not saying it's not explained, but explained nuts is still nuts. I think (re: previous message) the corrected threat mitigates this, though: she may not be "nuts" ordinarily, but rather it was set off by the threat that probably hit more deeply than expected.

Pardon me if I sound rude, but I'm wondering if you are using the literal definition of "nuts/crazy/mad".
Overreaction on some simtuli is hardly a component of madness and such. This is the usual kind of reaction any person can do, because of a dark/heavy past or note. Heck, this kind of actions can be related more on Neurosis, which affect most people, even for the slightest "ritual" or habit here and there. (order/cleaning mania, specific scheldule, etc)

Madness would actually mean Miyako completely lost it, which is absolutely not the case considering the episodes. Though complete psychological breakdown can be originated from the body or severe psychological disorder, the actions and the state of mind are almost irreversible broken, and obvious troubles and erratic behaviour are shown. In Miyako's case, she is reacting to some stimuli, nothing much proving a possible altered psyche or anything of that sort.

Again, the way how it is executed might disrupt how the characters feel: it emphasis how Miyako was in despair, but it certainly not demonstrate any "nuts behaviour" here and there. Otherwise, we can claim Kyousuke was nuts, hiro and kei as well.

[zoot]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Pardon me if I sound rude, but I'm wondering if you are using the literal definition of "nuts/crazy/mad".

I mean "she's got some serious issues". (Leaving 99 messages on voicemail because you're not answering qualifies, for me.) I don't mean "clinically insane". I guess the colloquial use of these words is different for us.

I'll forego a five-message debate about our personal nuances of "nuts" if you will, since I'm feeling thread fatigue. :)

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Exactly - these exact words said by Kei, while obviously overdramatized, were the trigger of Miyako's insecurity that eventually led to her breakdown.

I meant that the translation I watched (C-M) lost the connection to Miyako's issues for me. I only made the connection when I paid attention to the original dialog. It's an understandable translation miss, since the nuance (and consequences) of the line weren't clear at that point. Out of curiosity, does anyone have the Nuke and/or Aquastar translations of that one for comparison?

There is no need to spoiler tag information from episodes that have been fansubbed already

OK. I tend to err liberal because we're bouncing between episodes, and I don't want to remove a tag and then forget to re-add it when we bounce forward again, since I might not notice it happen ...

(On a side note - please don't double post - use the edit button if you want to add something to your previous posts).

I didn't do this because it's an easy way for people to miss messages, since it bypasses the whole last-read and email notification systems, but if that's convention here then OK.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by zoot

I mean "she's got some serious issues". (Leaving 99 messages on voicemail because you're not answering qualifies, for me.) I don't mean "clinically insane". I guess the colloquial use of these words is different for us.

colloquial use of the word is fine in informal environment, but when doing some form of character analysis it is bound to get the wrong message across. (especially when people whom you are talking to don't know how serious you are being with said word or what implications you assign to it during casual speech)

Originally Posted by zoot

I meant that the translation I watched (C-M) lost the connection to Miyako's issues for me. I only made the connection when I paid attention to the original dialog. It's an understandable translation miss, since the nuance (and consequences) of the line weren't clear at that point. Out of curiosity, does anyone have the Nuke and/or Aquastar translations of that one for comparison?

I am not sure i understand what you are referring to, but ... the show has never out right told us (meaning with dialog said by someone) about this connection. It is something you need to gather on your own while watching the show (Though it is hard to make signals more glaringly obvious than this i believe ). So it is not the subbers fault of "not making the connection"- they translated everything as it was, it is up to you to pick up the psychological (or otherwise) implications of the events.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by zoot

I mean "she's got some serious issues". (Leaving 99 messages on voicemail because you're not answering qualifies, for me.) I don't mean "clinically insane". I guess the colloquial use of these words is different for us.

I'll forego a five-message debate about our personal nuances of "nuts" if you will, since I'm feeling thread fatigue.

I don't see how a word like "nuts" should be variable from people, considering how the word is, especially you also said the word "crazy". You are obviously playing with words, and you definitely claimed Miyako was "deranged" (for another better word i assume) considering the phone call. Basing on your emphasis with "serious issues", you pretty much consider her as abnormal. While her reactions might were overboard, having troubles and psychological scars don't equate to "abnormal" person. That's why I involved the other characters related to the triangle, as if Miyako is considered as "having serious troubles", the others (especially kei) aren't spared either, though most people would agree they are "sane". Let alone, Chihiro's outburst are much worse, but they are completely normal. Surely you wouldn't call her nuts, would you?

I was only demonstrating that she isn't, and even using remotely slang term, she would hardly fit in the category of "berserk" "overboard" character and such.
If i had to use my opinion, she would be considered as emotional and quite affected by her past, nothing fancier than this.

[NoSanninWa]

Why are we still arguing about Miyako's mental instability and her 99 messages?

Honestly, at this point if anyone doesn't agree, please just accept that they NEVER WILL! You do know what they say about arguing on the internet, right?

Please let the pointless argument stop. It is monopolizing the entire thread and drowning out all other disussion.

[zoot]

(snipping semantics argument; I don't agree, but let's drop it)

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I am not sure i understand what you are referring to, but ... the show has never out right told us (meaning with dialog said by someone) about this connection. It is something you need to gather on your own while watching the show (Though it is hard to make signals more glaringly obvious than this i believe ). So it is not the subbers fault of "not making the connection"- they translated everything as it was, it is up to you to pick up the psychological (or otherwise) implications of the events.

I'm referring to the line that got a pre-OP repeat in ep 6 for emphasis: "anata no sonzai wo keshite miseru". The implications were lost in translation for me: the translation didn't make the implication that the original line did.

I'm not picking on the fansubbers; smoothing over of translations is necessary with J/E translation, and they're translating the show as it comes out, so recognizing the important nuances in advance is hard. I'm wondering if the Aquastar translation made the connection, since their release of ep 6 was after C-F's release of ep 7.

[Ichigo91]

[Kaoru Chujo]

There is an interview on YouTube with the voice actresses for (l-r) Kei (Okada Junko), Miyako (Taguchi Hiroko), and Chihiro (Yanase Natsumi):



I think all three of them are excellent in this show. Yanase and Taguchi are veteran ero-game seiyuus. Okada is married to the chief producer at minori, the company which makes the ef games. All three are in their thirties.

I have made a fuller blog post about them.