Itazura na Kiss

[Molenir]

I think the point you're missing here is, that Kotoko provides Naoki with emotional support, and unlimited love. Its like being wrapped in a warm blanket on a cold morning. Just being around her to Naoki is relaxing. After a hard day of work, having her to come home to is what makes it worth living. She challenges him, inspires him, and makes him want to be a better person, even while she frustrates him with how dense and stupid she is occasionally. She really is what he needs.

Now him on the other hand... I get that Kotoko really loves him. I've just never understood why. I know its more then the physical as I said before, but what exactly, I'm not sure.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Molenir

I think the point you're missing here is, that Kotoko provides Naoki with emotional support, and unlimited love. Its like being wrapped in a warm blanket on a cold morning. Just being around her to Naoki is relaxing. After a hard day of work, having her to come home to is what makes it worth living. She challenges him, inspires him, and makes him want to be a better person, even while she frustrates him with how dense and stupid she is occasionally. She really is what he needs.

Makes you think that it is strange that Irie isn't treating Kotoko and better than he was before marriage...

At least he is making more effort now...hopefully...unless he goes on one of his jealous fits again now that a new challanger has arrived
*Points to latest ep*

As for what part of Irie, Kotoko likes...it started off being physical attraction and still remains that was as far as I can see. She definitely doesn't love him for his gentleness or caring side, which is none existant to date.

[Deathkillz]

ep 21

Spoiler:

Egads! I can't believe this but I just went though an episode of InK without any arguments between Kotoko and Irie...there must be a God somewhere

But out goes one jerk, in comes another. Man, time really does change a person and the once angelic Non chan that we know has been replaced by the devil. Surprisingly, Yuuki didn't change much after all these years and still retains his baby face.



This was quite an interesting episode to watch. Finally seeing Kotoko and Irie working together as a couple was good to see but Nobu just annoyed the heck out of me. Even after the explanation with why he has been acting like such a jerk, I didn't like it. Guess it will be hard for him to redeem himself unless some drastic changes are put into place. We shall see how things go after the operation.

And apparently, the decision that Irie took to become a doctor was all to because of his desire to cure Nobu of his disease. I find that act quite honorable if not hard to achieve that an act of desire could be so strong.

Amongst other things Keita also showed up and nearly taught Nobu a valuable lesson. But I am more interested with how things are going with him and the wheelchair girl

[Ultenth]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

ep 21
But I am more interested with how things are going with him and the wheelchair girl

To be honest I'm kinda creeped out by that a bit. I mean I know it's not that abnormal in anime/manga, but if you think about it Keita was probably around 21-22 before the time skip, so he's 25-26 now, and the girl is in high school so she's 16-17. Which means that not only is she his patient, but she's also 7-9 years younger than him, which would be pretty sleezy in the US.

[Deathkillz]

I guess it does sound kinda creepy but come old age the difference is quite negligible (like how my parents are separated 6 years apart but in their 40's it doesnt sound nearly as bad as thinking back to what it would have been if the relationship started when my father was 20).
It's another one of those gray areas based on your own morals but for me, I don't mind much as long as the feelings are mutual (for most cases). It isn't like Keita is taking advantage of a girl who doesn't know better. In fact, he isn't acting at all so it is up to the girl to tell him those important words.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

but she's also 7-9 years younger than him, which would be pretty sleezy in the US.

Statements about how a 7 to 9 year age difference makes people uncomfortable always strike me as odd because when (and where) I was growing up, a 7 year age difference was considered the ideal age difference between a man and a woman. (With the man being the older of the two.) Times sure have changed since I was little.

[Ultenth]

The fact is that most people under the age of 24 or so still don't know what the hell they are doing and are easily taken advantage of. The reason that underage sex laws exist is because it's very easy for older more mature people to manipulate underage people into positions that they think they want but that they may later regret. If she was 25 and he 50 I wouldn't have an issue, because at that point she's probably mature enough to know what she wants and not be swayed as easily.

I hate to sound like the old man, and I know kids think they know everything and aren't manipulated that easily, but I though I had my shit together and was really smart when I was a kid, but when I look back now I'm almost embarressed about how clueless I really was. But yeah, love is love and all that, and people tend to not think things through when they are in love.

I guess part of it for me is not understanding why a truely mature man who is post 25 or so would want to date a young girl. Girls (and guys) under 25 are idiots, and try to play all sorts of games and cause drama and don't know what they want and have all sorts of other issues. If you really are a mature older man, why would you ever want to deal with all that crap by dating a younger girl? And yet the younger girl is attracted to the older man in part because of supposedly how more mature he is than guys her age. Which seems a complete paradox to me because if he really was that mature he wouldn't want to date an immature younger woman to begin with, and would be seeking out more mature older women that have their stuff together. But then I guess a lot of guys don't really care for looking for a partner that is an equal and someone that can grow with them, but would rather have someone they can protect and provide for, so I guess I can understand it from that reason.

[mangalowres]

Americans have problems with sex ... the rest of the world knows that

[Ultenth]

I'm sure how that relates to what I said, but okay. Not saying I disagree, after all it's more okay to show a mutilated headless corpse than a nipple on TV, but still. If you could elaborate as to how issues with sex correlates to my comments about young people being immature about relationships (well DUH) and older people being able to manipulate them, I would be grateful. If people are okay with a 25-26 year old and a 16-17 year old, then I guess it's okay for an 18 year old to get with a 9-10 year old then too huh? After all it's the same age difference...

I know 16-17 is getting closer to an adult, but there is still a HUGE maturity and experience gap between someone that age and someone 25 who is out on their own living in the real world for a while.

[mangalowres]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

I'm sure how that relates to what I said, but okay. Not saying I disagree, after all it's more okay to show a mutilated headless corpse than a nipple on TV, but still. If you could elaborate as to how issues with sex correlates to my comments about young people being immature about relationships (well DUH) and older people being able to manipulate them, I would be grateful. If people are okay with a 25-26 year old and a 16-17 year old, then I guess it's okay for an 18 year old to get with a 9-10 year old then too huh? After all it's the same age difference...

I know 16-17 is getting closer to an adult, but there is still a HUGE maturity and experience gap between someone that age and someone 25 who is out on their own living in the real world for a while.

Originally Posted by Ultenth

If she was 25 and he 50 I wouldn't have an issue, because at that point she's probably mature enough to know what she wants and not be swayed as easily.

Can I have an AMEN?
AMEN!!!
Thank you
That would be a 26 year old and a 1 year old

After all mental age and physical age are not the same, a 16 year old kid can be more mature as an 24 or 28 year old adult.
13 years ago I could not think about it, a 29 old guy with a 16 year old girl but now I can understand and accept that. Most men of that age don't want to play anymore they want a partner, not a sex tool or something like that.

Ah and this was a friend of mine, she was 16 he was 26, they stayed 5 years together, she had the lead in their relationship and left him later.

[Ultenth]

I know the whole idea is a bit hard to swallow for a lot of people, but I felt (and was told) I was very mature for my age when I was younger, and dated people quite a bit older than myself. But looking back on it now I realize how foolish I was to think that I could make up for real life experience and wisdom gained from it with raw intellect and knowledged gained from outside sources. I hated hearing people say that with a passion when I was younger too, and always felt like people were underestimating me, but now that I'm in my late 20's I realize that they were just speaking from their own personal experience and that of those close to them. They didn't mean anything insulting by it, they were just stating facts about what life itself had shown them in their experience.

I really firmly believe that until MOST people are 22-24 they are still really immature, and that someone in high school dating someone outside of college and living in the real world is at a distinct disadvantage in a relationship, unless of course the older person is just really immature and hasn't gained much life experience themselves other than partying or something. All of the +25 year old guys I know that date younger girls are party boys looking for a good time, none of them are mature adults with a real career and are looking for a real life partner.

[mangalowres]

See most of the 25+ year old .. 28+ year old guys I know want a stable relationship, they have had all their good time in the past 16-24 mostly and did what they wanted to do.
Now after that all they want a partner and there are a lot of young girls who want the same, a partner whom stands near them and maybe leads them but not mostly.


That really seems to be a hosemade american problem
Hold the kids away from sexual experience till they are old enough to not know what could happen hrr hrr
Just jokin but there is a little truce in that the 25+ old guys you know would not act like that if they would have made those experience in their past

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

All of the +25 year old guys I know that date younger girls are party boys looking for a good time, none of them are mature adults with a real career and are looking for a real life partner.

Still somewhat going offtopic for a while, I can find myself relate to such a view because of the amount of advice given to me from my mother. And I also firmly believe that it isn't until you are in your twenties that you begin to settle down and think things through maturely, well, for sensible adults anyway, that is which you are so right in pointing out "party animals" which are people I tend not to associate myself with either. I think I owe my mum a bit of thanks for drilling into me how important it is to go for a stable girlfriend with you don't usually meet until you hit collage or later. Perhaps to some of my friends the see me as someone who "hasn't lived yet" being party animals but I don't mind considering that I want a serious relationship myself rather than playing around...and serious relationships tend to be with older people at least.

But that isn't to say that you can get a serious relationship with someone younger than you are...though those are just very rare but not impossible. At least in Keita's perspective (ah, getting back on topic now) he is serious so you don't have to worry about him taking advantage or whatever.

[Ultenth]

Originally Posted by mangalowres

See most of the 25+ year old .. 28+ year old guys I know want a stable relationship, they have had all their good time in the past 16-24 mostly and did what they wanted to do.
Now after that all they want a partner and there are a lot of young girls who want the same, a partner whom stands near them and maybe leads them but not mostly.


That really seems to be a hosemade american problem
Hold the kids away from sexual experience till they are old enough to not know what could happen hrr hrr
Just jokin but there is a little truce in that the 25+ old guys you know would not act like that if they would have made those experience in their past

I'm not sure what you're talking about, even though it may be frowned on, kids in the US are having sex at like 11-12 now, and in large quantities all the way through school and past graduation. It may still be taboo as far as politicians go, but trust me, kids in the US are not lacking in sexual experience. lol.

And I do agree that Keita seems like he would handle a relationship with a younger person responsibly. But it's still a bit creepy to me how often in anime you have high school students dating people in their mid to late 20's, or their cousins or sisters in laws or whatever. I mean I do realize that 90% of anime is male fantasy fulfillment, and so most of it is due to that factor, but still...

I guess part of it is just myself I really have no interest in younger women, I've only dated 2 women younger than me, one about a year, the other 2 hours. And the one that was a year younger than me was a huge mistake as she was a complete drama queen with all sorts of issues and tried to play all kinds of games (not very well mind you). Generally I prefer more mature women that I don't have to babysit or be a daddy too, someone that will be somewhat of an equal and true partner. If I want to be a daddy to someone I'll have kids, not a girlfriend, and most girls that are looking for older men are looking for a daddy figure to protect and provide for them.

[mangalowres]

Uh good point Deathkillz yeah Keita isn't a man who would only play with her.
And from my experience a relationship between a "young" woman and an "old" man is better for both

[LKK]

One point that needs to understood about anime's depiction of male-female relationships is that the women's movement of the 1970s hasn't become as ingrained in Japanese anime as it is in US & Western society. Male-female relationships in anime have much more in common with male-female relationships in US television from the 1950s and early 1960s. This is especially true for Itazura na Kiss, being an older shoujo.

In the 1950s, it was common for young women to marry immediately from high school or the first year or so in college. To marry at that age, a woman who wanted a stable, comfortable marriage looked for a man who (1) was mature enough to consider marriage, (2) had graduated from college or his military service, and (3) had established himself in a job. If you add up the years required for a man to do all that, you get a man who's 7 to 9 years older than the woman. Hence my statement about the old ideal age difference between a man and woman.

To me, Itazura na Kiss is a surprisingly true-to-life depiction of my parents early days together. My mother was a freshman college student who transferred to a nursing school and met my father who was 7 years older than her. He had graduated from college, served his required army duty, and was a working engineer at the time. They dated and wed before she graduated from nursing school. She was 21; he was 28.

Although I came of age after the women's movement, it was drilled into me throughout my childhood that the path my parents' relationship took was the appropriate path for someone of my gender and social position. The only difference in my parents eyes as a result of the women's movement was that I had more career opportunities than my mother had.

When it comes to male-female relationships, Japanese anime in general and Itazura na Kiss in particular still tend to think like my parents and people of their generation did. Haven't you noticed how nicely Itazura na Kiss would fit in with US TV from the 1950s and early 1960s?

[Shiroth]

That was a lovely episode.

Spoiler for Episode 21:

I wasn't surprised at all of the attitude Non-chan had in this episode, especially when you start to think about his background/everything that's happened to him in the past. He's a brilliant character though, and plays a huge part in Irie's development as a doctor.

I couldn't stop the tears during the scene when Kotoko was finally telling Non-chan what had to be said. I mentioned before about the piece of music by Takanashi Yasuharu that was very similar to his Toward the Terra score, well another piece has appeared and was used for that scene. Absolutely lovely.

With four episodes left, one has to start thinking how they'll end this.

[tun]

Spoiler for episode 21:

Man, did anyone else rage when he kissed Akiko-chan? Now she's ruined for marriage. Keita must be a strong man if he accepts her after the defiling that she underwent.

Spoiler:

lol

[Vexx]

Agree with LKK.... too many of ya'll are mistakenly assuming the way your life and standards look now is the way its always been. This series is a very "1950s" sensibility from an American perspective (1980s perhaps from a japanese perspective).
My mother married at 19 right out of high school. Average age of marriage was quite young until the mid-20th Century. Accepted age of maturity was early teens til the early 20th Century.

The delay of "maturity" til 20s is a quite recent phenomenom and is quite interesting considering the age of sexual dalliance is returning to its original beginning (just after puberty) thanks to the advent of birth control. As usual, laws and conventional wisdom is not keeping up with reality.

[musouka]

And, again, you guys, this is an early nineties manga. I've said it once again, but it bears repeating. Read some more stories of the era. Even a lot of popular 80's shoujo manga are more progressive than this, so please stop acting like Japan was stuck in a 1960's time warp a mere twenty years ago, instead of this just being a case of one very popular shoujo manga with outdated sensibilities. Even the manga that followed in its footsteps tended to have stronger heroines.