Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

They could always make something like an OVA based on a conflict that is more localised, perhaps explore regions within the Earth Alliance that were overlooked in the main series. You could have mercenaries or LOGOS remnants going on a rampage in say, the Republic of East Asia, looting cities and exploiting a political vacuum left behind by a decadent government. On the other hand, Lacus and the ZAFT leadership are handicapped by a strong wave of anti-war sentiments back in the PLANT homeland and are forced to cobble a motley of peacekeeping forces in secret. This way they can highlight the uncertainties the CE world continue to face in a post-war era and how Kira, Shinn and co. have to resort to extraordinary measures to preserve the fragile peace, and in the process, discover whether it's really worth the sacrifices made to transparency and open governance.

[Yye1]

Now that this is over, I am starting to hold out hope that the movie might finally come out

[IceHism]

There's already a lot of ass pulls that plague all forms of entertainment regardless of whether the series/franchise is good or not. Adding another asspull really isn't going to make a difference

Even a large time period skip isn't feasible
Cause at this point, who in Japan would watch another CE story without Kira, lacus, athrun, shinn, or cagalli. Did stargazer or astray even sell well compared to seed or seed destiny?

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well, that's just it. Even if she's not the de-facto leader, the PLANT Supreme Council would be daft not to listen to Lacus

Governments make daft decisions all the time.

Remember that, despite what viewers like to believe, the CITIZENS of ZAFT are not mindless Lacus followers. They were all in agreement with DURANDAL'S pretty lies spoken by MEER. The REAL Lacus is influential as a figure, but it's not like Zala had riots in the streets when she was doing her speeches, nor did any rebellions break out after Meer was revealed as a fake.

Lacus is influential, sure, but she isn't their ruler.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

LOGOS isn't a powerful organization with no leadership. Those members that were taken out WERE LOGOS

What? You think Djibril was war profiteering on his own? He was building weapons of war by hand? He was piloting hundreds of mobile suits with his hidden mobile doll Zero system? He mind controlled major political figures around the EA?

The organization is still there! There are still soldiers, and factories, and weapons, and scientists, and politicians. All formerly loyal to LOGOS, all morally bankrupt, mostly Blue Cosmos members.

Money talks. Someone will rise to take their place. Will they be better or worse?

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

but without LOGOS it's unlikely that Blue Cosmos would get into leadership

Why? A lot of EA high ranking officials were Blue Cosmos. They're ALREADY in a position of power.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Partial to Durandal or not, Eurasia IS in shambles like you said, so they're also not in any position to start a conflict.

Them being in shambles is what makes it so easy. Their government is weak, their people are unhappy and have been oppressed for who knows how long. The leader they backed has been killed by the people now in charge. They are ripe for being taken over. All it takes is a strong, charismatic leader and they'll fall in line like lemmings.

And I know you just skimmed over it, but the AF remains the only major faction to not have any damage to its infrastructure. War never came to their shores. And we already know Copeland was a weak leader, if we follow US conventions, that would make the Vice President the dangerous one...

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Governments make daft decisions all the time.

Remember that, despite what viewers like to believe, the CITIZENS of ZAFT are not mindless Lacus followers. They were all in agreement with DURANDAL'S pretty lies spoken by MEER. The REAL Lacus is influential as a figure, but it's not like Zala had riots in the streets when she was doing her speeches, nor did any rebellions break out after Meer was revealed as a fake.

Lacus is influential, sure, but she isn't their ruler.

Lacus has put a stop to the PLANT's government twice now in as many years. I daresay whoever is among the Council this time around will at least hear her out if she's a part of it. As for riots and such--we won't know as they didn't bother to show off the prolonged ramifications of Lacus' reveal of Meer being a fake, and not terribly long afterwards the EA destroyed several PLANTs with Requiem and the war ended entirely not long after with Durandal dead.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

What? You think Djibril was war profiteering on his own? He was building weapons of war by hand? He was piloting hundreds of mobile suits with his hidden mobile doll Zero system? He mind controlled major political figures around the EA?

The organization is still there! There are still soldiers, and factories, and weapons, and scientists, and politicians. All formerly loyal to LOGOS, all morally bankrupt, mostly Blue Cosmos members.

Money talks. Someone will rise to take their place. Will they be better or worse?

LOGOS was the group of men that made up LOGOS, including Djibril. The companies that made the profits are not LOGOS, nor are the employees of said companies--those are, more often than not, just men and women trying to etch out a living. It is the companies that gave LOGOS their power, allowing LOGOS to use the profits their companies made to manipulate politicians into starting wars so that could rake in more money from the weapons production.

You seriously think that a supposedly ancient group of a few immoral old men had an organization numbering in the millions all loyal to them, with their only goal to make said few immoral old men even richer than they already are? Super-rich people looking out only to get richer will only breed resentment in the people. Hell, we have that happening right now in the real world, with the 1% earning the ire of pretty much everyone in the middle and lower classes of society. LOGOS would not exist if it were as public as you claim it would be.

The companies you speak of are what gave LOGOS their power, but they are not LOGOS themselves. While yes, someone of ill intent will eventually fill in the power vacuum, it won't be as quick as you think.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Why? A lot of EA high ranking officials were Blue Cosmos. They're ALREADY in a position of power.

And most of 'em got wiped out by Durandal's Messiah fortress and ZAFT forces in the final battle, and LOGOS, Blue Cosmos' biggest funder and benefactor, has been removed from the game. They may still exist in the current government but they'll have a harder time expanding or taking over without LOGOS to fund them.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Them being in shambles is what makes it so easy. Their government is weak, their people are unhappy and have been oppressed for who knows how long. The leader they backed has been killed by the people now in charge. They are ripe for being taken over. All it takes is a strong, charismatic leader and they'll fall in line like lemmings.

Yeah, but Eurasia's infrastructure is also in shambles thanks to LOGOS and their attacks. While someone may rise to power with ill intent, Eurasia still needs to fix its infrastructure before they can actually cause a problem.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

And I know you just skimmed over it, but the AF remains the only major faction to not have any damage to its infrastructure. War never came to their shores. And we already know Copeland was a weak leader, if we follow US conventions, that would make the Vice President the dangerous one...

No, I get that, but as it stands the racial conflict in SEED's universe took two sides to create, with LOGOS and Blue Cosmos breeding anti-Coordinator sentiments, and people like Patrick Zala to fuel anti-Natural sentiments or Durandal to fuel a war for their own shady plans. Destiny's conflict wasn't just the result of LOGOS, it was also the result of Durandal needing a conflict to he could push his own take-over-the-world agenda. While EA can still end up a credible threat in due time (remember that the final battle once again cause extensive damage to the Atlantic Federation's combat capabilities), the other half of the usual problem is currently not in place, as we have charismatic leader figures without evil intentions among PLANT's governments.

[weirdguy]

Whoa. I think you might want to hold up with the part of having chraismatic leaders without evil intentions in Plants. We don't know that that's completely true. There are people who aren't afraid to go against Lacus.

Thing is you can say Zala had evil intentions, but he fought so that the coordinators can live on, but he went totally overboard. Duransal had better intentions, but like Zala, he used incorrect method.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Lacus has put a stop to the PLANT's government twice now in as many years.

Lacus was INVOLVED in the group who put a stop to ZAFT's insanity twice.

Orb provided the bulk of troops in both cases. Lacus just helped them. And now she is just a liason between Earth and PLANTs. She's a damned diplomat. She simply hasn't shown the kind of political power people seem to believe she has.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

As for riots and such--we won't know as they didn't bother to show off the prolonged ramifications of Lacus' reveal of Meer being a fake

If they didn't show, it didn't happen.

Every time we saw a discussion, we saw it mostly even handed. And we don't exactly see any soldiers defecting other than the Joule team.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You seriously think that a supposedly ancient group of a few immoral old men had an organization numbering in the millions all loyal to them, with their only goal to make said few immoral old men even richer than they already are?

No. But do you SERIOUSLY think that there is no one in that organization of greedy, immoral people poised to take over when one of them died?

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

LOGOS would not exist if it were as public as you claim it would be.

Seriously? The Koch brothers aren't exactly well hidden right now. And Rupert Murdoch owns a media empire defending them and theirs. No one's stopped them yet...

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

, someone of ill intent will eventually fill in the power vacuum, it won't be as quick as you think.

Who do you think will fill that power vacuum right away? Why would a sequel have to be months after the end of Destiny?

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And most of 'em got wiped out by Durandal's Messiah fortress and ZAFT forces in the final battle,

They were? Copeland was killed by Requiem, but who else?

Politicians don't usually join armies.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

and LOGOS, Blue Cosmos' biggest funder and benefactor, has been removed from the game.

The men are dead. Their money, their companies, ALL of their assets still remain.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Yeah, but Eurasia's infrastructure is also in shambles thanks to LOGOS and their attacks. While someone may rise to power with ill intent, Eurasia still needs to fix its infrastructure before they can actually cause a problem.

Everyone else's infrastructure is also in the shit, and Cagalli has already shown herself big prominent of disarmament during peace time.

And Eurasia is HUGE. 1% of a large group can still compete with 50% of a smaller group.

And remember, both ZAFT and EA lost more a LARGE portion of their forces in Seed, and by Destiny they already had massive forces again. Imagine what they could do in five years...

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

No, I get that, but as it stands the racial conflict in SEED's universe took two sides to create, with LOGOS and Blue Cosmos breeding anti-Coordinator sentiments, and people like Patrick Zala to fuel anti-Natural sentiments or Durandal to fuel a war for their own shady plans.

Well, that's because of the themes of the show. Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for conflict to happen unless BOTH sides are douchebags?

Look, by the end of Destiny, the ONLY problem faction seen as probably stable is the PLANTs Council. Every other faction is a complete unknown. They can be as strong or weak, as well intentioned or greedy as the story dictates.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Lacus was INVOLVED in the group who put a stop to ZAFT's insanity twice.

Orb provided the bulk of troops in both cases. Lacus just helped them.

... I think you're just arguing semantics at this point. She didn't "stop them," she "just helped"?

If they didn't show, it didn't happen.

Oh god, I don't even know where to start with this. It completely made my day. Do you know how many pages on this thread are devoted to people arguing the exact opposite?

Every time we saw a discussion, we saw it mostly even handed. And we don't exactly see any soldiers defecting other than the Joule team.

How exactly were any of those discussions even-handed? The words might have been, somewhat, but the way the series portrayed the results of those discussions was anything but. It was pure black and white.

Politicians don't usually join armies.

Umm... you're looking at that backwards. It's not how many politicians join the army, it's how many who join the army become politicians.

The men are dead. Their money, their companies, ALL of their assets still remain.

Yeah, but who actually has the ability to use them? The fact they remained secret for so long tells us most people couldn't even find the links between those assets. For all intents and purposes, they're out of everyone else's hands. Plus, with the big reveal of who exactly those people were, their assets would have more than likely been dismantled or, better yet, seized by various governments and used to help fund rebuilding.

Everyone else's infrastructure is also in the shit, and Cagalli has already shown herself big prominent of disarmament during peace time.

Except for, you know, Orb and the PLANTS.

And Eurasia is HUGE. 1% of a large group can still compete with 50% of a smaller group.

It's huge, yeah, but it's not as big as you seem to think. That map you memorized in school isn't exactly properly scaled.

And remember, both ZAFT and EA lost more a LARGE portion of their forces in Seed, and by Destiny they already had massive forces again. Imagine what they could do in five years...

Have a bunch of toddlers running around? There's only so much a generation can recover before it's over-exhausted itself.

Well, that's because of the themes of the show. Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for conflict to happen unless BOTH sides are douchebags?

You're putting words in his mouth. No-one's saying it's impossible; it wouldn't even be a Gundam series if it were. The problem is SEED went out of it's way to make both sides pass around the idiot ball like a village bicycle.

Look, by the end of Destiny, the ONLY problem faction seen as probably stable is the PLANTs Council. Every other faction is a complete unknown. They can be as strong or weak, as well intentioned or greedy as the authors want.

Fixed it for you.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

... I think you're just arguing semantics at this point. She didn't "stop them," she "just helped"?

There is a huge difference between "Cross me and I will wreck you!" and "Cross me and if someone else rises up against you I will join them and help!"

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Do you know how many pages on this thread are devoted to people arguing the exact opposite?

I'm guessing more than most people realize. And?

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

How exactly were any of those discussions even-handed? The words might have been, somewhat, but the way the series portrayed the results of those discussions was anything but. It was pure black and white.

To you, perhaps. To the PLANTs citizens? We were shown equal amounts agreeing and disagreeing with Lacus, both during Seed (when her and Zala went at it) and when she revealed herself at Orb in Destiny.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Umm... you're looking at that backwards. It's not how many politicians join the army, it's how many who join the army become politicians.

No. I mean, how many politicians join the army IN ATTACKING THEIR ENEMIES after becoming politicians.

Armies were destroyed, but their leaders remain.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Yeah, but who actually has the ability to use them?

Other members of the same organizations.

Yes, the rank and file may not know who they are really working for, but plenty of people working under Djibril know who they work for and how this mess works. You see Djibril spend the show watching TV, drinking wine and yelling at people. Who is ACTUALLY running the books? Managing the companies? Those are the guys who know this business inside and out and have already been preparing themselves to take over when needed.

In any organization, you find the man on top and you can always find someone willing and able to take his position right underneath him.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Except for, you know, Orb and the PLANTS.

The first thing you learn about Cagalli in Destiny is that a) she has little actual power in Orb right now, even though she is Chief Representative and b) she dislikes the fact Durandal is re-arming ZAFT.

By the end, a) has changed. b) seems to remain true however...

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

It's huge, yeah, but it's not as big as you seem to think. That map you memorized in school isn't exactly properly scaled.

Yes. And?

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Have a bunch of toddlers running around? There's only so much a generation can recover before it's over-exhausted itself.

And how much IS that number exactly? Hell, how many have they lost over the past two wars?

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

You're putting words in his mouth.

No, I am asking.

If a conflict does not NEED two "evil" sides, then the idea that the PLANTs may not end up being "evil" in the future is meaningless.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Fixed it for you.

Yes. In fiction everything that happens is decided by the authors. Congratulations! You have discovered the hidden truth of the universe. Your perception skills know no bounds.

And?

[Washu-Chan]

Has it been officially stated that Lacus became a new member of the PLANT Supreme Council (or even the new Chairwoman, taking her father's position)? In the latest SRW games, Lacus did become the Chairwoman, but the games are non-canon for obvious reasons.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Has it been officially stated that Lacus became a new member of the PLANT Supreme Council (or even the new Chairwoman, taking her father's position)? In the latest SRW games, Lacus did become the Chairwoman, but the games are non-canon for obvious reasons.

I dont think they have ever officially said anything

I assume everyone just assumed so due to her get-up

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Has it been officially stated that Lacus became a new member of the PLANT Supreme Council (or even the new Chairwoman, taking her father's position)? In the latest SRW games, Lacus did become the Chairwoman, but the games are non-canon for obvious reasons.

What we've been shown and know is that Lacus meets the High council at the end of Destiny, Kira is wearing Zaft uniforms, Lacus get's a very proper and cerimonial greeting And she acted as a diplomat at the end of the second war.

Her actual position however, is unknown at this time, it's only possible to speculate. Terminal's crew (3 stars) and the Eternal seems to have rejoined Zaft aswell.

[Washu-Chan]

I think a better idea for Shinn would be for him to to go on a soul-searching quest to find himself and reflect on what he's done, instead of joining Kira's group suddenly. Basically, treat him like Wufei, in-between Wing and EW, but without him joining any of the big bad groups.

I get the feeling that if Durandal won the war, Shinn would have been killed anyway, since he would no longer be needed.

OTOH, one could say that Durandal "won" a Pyrrhic victory; he made Kira and Lacus become what they never wanted to do (in Kira's case, a soldier, and in Lacus's case, working with the government).

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

I think a better idea for Shinn would be for him to to go on a soul-searching quest to find himself and reflect on what he's done, instead of joining Kira's group suddenly. Basically, treat him like Wufei, in-between Wing and EW, but without him joining any of the big bad groups.

I get the feeling that if Durandal won the war, Shinn would have been killed anyway, since he would no longer be needed.

OTOH, one could say that Durandal "won" a Pyrrhic victory; he made Kira and Lacus become what they never wanted to do (in Kira's case, a soldier, and in Lacus's case, working with the government).

-to say Shin unneeded is like saying all ZAFT soldiers = unneeded

-Kira become soldier in s1 when he join alliance by his own choice with his friends instead of leaving.

-Lacus never said she don't want to work with government.
(if she don't want o become a leader -> she won't lead terminal from s1)

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

-to say Shin unneeded is like saying all ZAFT soldiers = unneeded

-Kira become soldier in s1 when he join alliance by his own choice with his friends instead of leaving.

-Lacus never said she don't want to work with government.
(if she don't want o become a leader -> she won't lead terminal from s1)

Working with government =/= Leading a political organisation.

It's sort of.. implied. After the war in SEED, Lacus did choose to stay out of politics and live a simple life with Kira. It's not until the events in GSD that Lacus was somewhat forced into action and perhaps preventing another war factored into her decision to rejoin the PLANT government (assuming she did). While being the leader of the Clyne Faction and Terminal did pave the way for her to exercise some political and military influence, taking charge or at least advising a government on the scale of a superpower like PLANT is on a whole new level altogether.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Working with government =/= Leading a political organisation.

It's sort of.. implied. After the war in SEED, Lacus did choose to stay out of politics and live a simple life with Kira. It's not until the events in GSD that Lacus was somewhat forced into action and perhaps preventing another war factored into her decision to rejoin the PLANT government (assuming she did). While being the leader of the Clyne Faction and Terminal did pave the way for her to exercise some political and military influence, taking charge or at least advising a government on the scale of a superpower like PLANT is on a whole new level altogether.

does not mean she was against becoming one -> even Waltfeld didn't rejoin ZAFT after s1.

probably it have something to do with trust issue not because they hate working with gov.
(when dearka return after s1 he was put in trial
-> now what do you think will happen to Lacus?
she did give Freedom to enemy pilot which have nuclear reactor)

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

does not mean she was against becoming one -> even Waltfeld didn't rejoin ZAFT after s1.

probably it have something to do with trust issue not because they hate working with gov.
(when dearka return after s1 he was put in trial
-> now what do you think will happen to Lacus?
she did give Freedom to enemy pilot which have nuclear reactor)

That's in interesting scenario.

Wasn't Lacus supposed to be charged of high treason by Patrick Zala after she gave the Freedom to Kira, as well as violating the Junius Treaty when Freedom was reactivated? I'm guessing that it was likely dropped or forgotten after he was killed, and in the case of Freedom's reactivation, if Durandal violated it later on, so these two charges may have canceled each other out.

[S.Freedom]

If we are going to argue over who broke the treaty first when it comes to the use of nuclear power for military purposes. I'd say the EA did so by trying to nuke the Plants after the remains of Junius 7 fell on earth. Then there is the Destroy's, which I find hard to believe are battery powered.

And that's not taking into consideration that neither Kira or Lacus likely signed said treaty, nor did terminal. Which could be considered a non-government-organization outside the control of any national government like Orb.

[monster]

The treaty deals with deployment of weapons. Neither the Archangel nor the Freedom was deployed until the treaty had already been broken by the EA. After that, there was no one else to break the treaty as the treaty had already been broken.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

does not mean she was against becoming one -> even Waltfeld didn't rejoin ZAFT after s1.

No Kira and Lacus were pretty much done after Seed. Kira even says many times in Destiny he doesn't want to fight and just wanted to have his peaceful life with Lacus and Lacus herself is reluctant to do more than hang out in AA until she finally realizes she has to choice.

Them resigning to having to help hold the world together was not what they truely wanted but they realized they were too important to not keep being involved and if they didn't people like Durandal and Djibril would try to do it instead.