Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by FinnMacCool

I think when it comes to the idea of morality within the guerrilla tactics of the Order of Black Knights it can be summed in one simple yet very famous phrase

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

It's clear that their methods are a matter of perspective. While pro-Brittanians see it as mindless violence and destruction, those in support of them see it as simply a natural reaction to an unjustified occupation.

Mindless Violence and destruction? No, Britannians know far too well it isn't mindless. It is merely an uprising, something they expected. "Might is Right" is practically in Britannia's constitution, so only the most deluded people like the early Suzaku would actually view Zero as evil. Those with the biggest army wins, that's all.

[FinnMacCool]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Mindless Violence and destruction? No, Britannians know far too well it isn't mindless. It is merely an uprising, something they expected. "Might is Right" is practically in Britannia's constitution, so only the most deluded people like the early Suzaku would actually view Zero as evil. Those with the biggest army wins, that's all.

When I said Pro-Britannian I was reffering to non-government/military types. In other words, people who are purposefully fed their govenrment's propaganda in order for there to be no dissent.

I am a believer in the fact that governments are inherently evil while people are inherently good. I think most of the Brittannians are probably prejudiced to some degree because they've been taught so.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, Viletta could be seen as an example of that. She was originally just as prejudiced as any other Britannian, probably viewing them on the same level of trash. When her memory was gone, all she had been taught was gone as well and she was a kind individual without all those prejudices.

With a leader like the Emperor, it isn't any surprise that many Britannians hold the views that they do, though we do have some rare cases of people who are not as prejudiced as the others.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Marioshinobi

Clovis: He ordered the Death of the Shinjuku Ghetto and knew of Lelouch's existence. It was his plan to wipe out all other Britannia family that got in his way. There was no way out.

Since when did Clovis want to kill all the other britainnian families?

[Dann of Thursday]

I think he might have meant Lelouch taking care of any of his family that got in his way. He killed Clovis both to make a statement as well as protect his identity at the time.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I think he might have meant Lelouch taking care of any of his family that got in his way. He killed Clovis both to make a statement as well as protect his identity at the time.

Actually knowing Lelouch, I'd say it was mainly to get Cornelia to come to Japan.

[Dann of Thursday]

True, he probably knew that would draw her there. Probably would have been better if Schneizal had come too, as I bet the info he had was better than Cornelia's, though Lelouch probably didn't care which as long as he got info on his mother.

He never had any intention of harming Euphemia, right? I don't think he considered her someone who would be involved, especially since she was too young at the time.

[Marioshinobi]

Sorry for the bad sentence I don't check these over other than spell check, x-x;

Euphie was Lelouch's first crush ( It was a childhood thing, also revealed when he shot her ) So She was most likely something he wanted to avoid completely. He only wanted those that posed a possible threat; Clovis saw Lelouch's face, Cornelia was Defending Brittania and interfering with his battles, Schneizel also may be a threat considering he moved Marianne's Remains.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by FinnMacCool

Neither the IRA nor the Black Knight's attacks ever purposefully targetted civillians yet civillians died. Can their deaths be justified simply because it was going against the occupiers?

OT, but the IRA did purposefully target civilians. A lot. Protestant civilians, but y'know.

It was an ugly Ireland back then. It's a miracle things are so calm nowadays.

One could easily see that Zero did not intend the Black Knights to be hunting Britannian heads. Mind you, he built his organization on the moment's whim (why he aided the terrorists in the first place, why he called them back for Operation Orange (), and why he moved against the hotel hijackers are all decisions made due to circumstances that forced his hand) but the story made it clear that the Black Knights were popular because Zero wasn't bombing train stations for the lulz. He delivered vigilante justice and did it with style, so yah.

Originally Posted by Marioshinobi

He only wanted those that posed a possible threat; Clovis saw Lelouch's face, Cornelia was Defending Brittania and interfering with his battles, Schneizel also may be a threat considering he moved Marianne's Remains.

I thought he hunted the other two (well, just Cornelia, since Schneizel was safe and sound elsewhere) because Clovis, geass'd, gave him the clue that these two have information on his mother's murder...?

[Dann of Thursday]

He certainly wanted to question Cornelia and Schneizal after what Clovis told him. He may have wanted to focus more on Corneila first since she was the more likely to show up added with the fact that Schneizal seems to be one of the few people who can beat him at tactics though Cornelia is good as well.

I'm curious as to whether he considered Cornelia a player in his mother's assasination after what Euphemia told him about Cornelia's respect for Marianne and her investigation on the assasination.

I hope Lelouch doesn't start crossing the line with what he is doing, though given his personality that may not be an issue.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

He certainly wanted to question Cornelia and Schneizal after what Clovis told him. He may have wanted to focus more on Corneila first since she was the more likely to show up added with the fact that Schneizal seems to be one of the few people who can beat him at tactics though Cornelia is good as well.

Yup. Unless Sunrise pulled yet another Imperial rival on us (Rollo is not discounted, though unlikely and would suck), Schneizel will likely be the only royal prince who can truly play Lelouch's game as a perfect equal. He has charisma, he has the smarts, he has the power, he's the White Prince to Lelouch's Black Princedom, and most importantly he has the guts for it.

Cornelia may be the Empire's finest general, but she isn't manipulative enough to beat Lelouch's intrigue really. An excellent -- indispensible -- asset for Schneizel, but she's not going to get him on her own.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I'm curious as to whether he considered Cornelia a player in his mother's assasination after what Euphemia told him about Cornelia's respect for Marianne and her investigation on the assasination.

Possibly not. I get the impression that he merely wants her knowledge of the affair the same way he got it from Clovis.

...although he doesn't show any signs of wanting to treat her any better than he treated poor, unfortunate Clovis.

As a side note, Clovis' character is really tragic in its own way. He's not very responsible himself, and very selfish at that (look how he couldn't care less if it takes killing everybody in Shinjuku to cover up his project), an archetypal "arrogant, selfish, and weak aristocrat" for sure; but to be killed by Lelouch just like that? Ouch. It's really sad when he's shown to actually apparently liked Lelouch (or Marianne, or Nunnally, or a combination of the three) a lot, and was probably not particularly gleeful at their apparent "deaths."

Poor man was too shocked to tell Lelouch he liked him when the latter was about the pull the trigger, not that it would sound particularly honest considering the situation. I wonder how Lelouch would react if he realizes that Clovis was fond of him?

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I hope Lelouch doesn't start crossing the line with what he is doing, though given his personality that may not be an issue.

He crossed a lot of lines already, I think. Although we won't have to worry about that far into the second season. After the climax and all that went into it, they can't possibly begin the new season with another full-scale conflict right away.

And it seemed to me that the first season's ending is his low point anyway. The famous shot of him after Suzaku removed the mask looked positively vampiric, like, full-blown Prince of Evil. Most of the time he doesn't look like that.

Lelouch -- Zero -- has been shown to do pretty much the least evil he could while refusing to abandon the efficiency of his operations. If it takes killing random Japanese Liberation Front soldiers to successfully ambush Cornelia, he'll do it, but otherwise he won't. And he doesn't enjoy it...much. He doesn't enjoy the killing, that's for certain, but he sure does laugh a lot when the enemy's being pwned left and right.

His laughing voice also convinces me anyway that there's a streak of insanity in him. Like, he's a naturally kind and compassionate person, minus a very strong will deserving of a prince; but after the Fall of Japan and his little Hannibal's oath moment* ("Suzaku, I'll destroy Britannia!"), he convinced himself to be as evil as he needs to be to fulfill the oath, creating an upper layer personality not unlike Suzaku's, except opposite. It's like his evil overlord laugh is for covering up the crying inside, and it's taxing his sanity.


*a metaphor made with the full knowledge that the real Hannibal's oath is probably yet another propaganda by the Evil Britannia Roman Empire!

[Dann of Thursday]

Hopefully that little crazy streak doesn't become more prominent in him. I wouldn't like for him to completely lose his mind after everything that happens to him, that would be a horrible ending. The crazy laughs are probably in reaction to the fact that he actually is beating Britannia at certain points when they always seemed so strong. The only laugh I would call insane might have been after he found out Suzaku was Lancelot's pilot, though that was probably laughing at the sheer irony of the whole situation.

[mechalord]

- Brittania is not democratic
- Brittania has no concept of human rights
- the Emperor rules with an iron fist
- the Emperor is an absolute monarch
- in CG the USA never existed, democracy never took a foothold in the world
- Clovis seemed like the sort that didn't have qualms about ethnic cleansing
- there is no such thing as human rights in Britttania. . . they don't only have no idea of the concept. . . they don't respect it


Lelouch is not fighting an anime representation of a modern western republic or democracy. He's fighting a totalitarian dictatorship responsible for acts of ethnic cleansing, human rights violations, etc.


I'm not sure the writers and makers of this show want you to recognize that standards are different in Lelouch's world. He's probably the most empathetic guy in the entire series. Everyone seems to more prejudiced, mean spirited, or angry than him. His schools chums look harmless but a lot of them are prejudiced.

Lelouch is always the guy who can see both sides of the same coin but chooses one side over the other. And he does show remorse where others don't. By Code Geass universe morallity. . . Lelouch is not evil. . . hardly.

This is one thing the writers should address. I don't think he's ever portrayed as evil but a lot of viewers think he's evil by his actions. Yeah, he is a self described terrorist and I'm not sure what they're trying to get at but looking at who his enemy is and what he is doing. . . he's not what a terrorist is by most real world standards.

Lelouch is not evil. If he's evil, then what is the Brittanian emperor or the Brittanian aristocracy?

[Dann of Thursday]

With the USA, the rebellion there failed because they were betrayed, by Ben Franklin of all people. One of the big problems is that the Emperor seems to impose darwinist views to the world and it's other countries. That's why the Emperor encourages competition and inequality so much, as to him it allows for only the best to prosper. I wouldn't be surprised if his whole plan had something to do with these views. Maybe the only people that will survive it will be those most fit to, allowing the Emperor to create a world of the very best.

One of the themes for this show is "between the means and the ends." Lelouch is meant to be someone who does a lot of things that could be considered evil yet his goal is actually something that should be simple to obtain, as C.C. pointed out. I think part of the reason some see him as evil is that sometimes, with the crazy laughing and all, he seems like he could fully cross the line and become similar to those he is fighting in some respects. As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

One of the themes for this show is "between the means and the ends." Lelouch is meant to be someone who does a lot of things that could be considered evil yet his goal is actually something that should be simple to obtain, as C.C. pointed out. I think part of the reason some see him as evil is that sometimes, with the crazy laughing and all, he seems like he could fully cross the line and become similar to those he is fighting in some respects. As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Are you sure that quote applies to Lulu?
Lulu, as I pointed out before, never consider his actions to be good intentions. He knows whatever he does is going to being pain and suffering to somebody, the only question is who. If you asked him, he certainly won't claim to be "good".

The one with the "good intentions" was Suzaku, because he was the only one who once consider himself to be good. Lulu knows exactly what he is doing.

[Dann of Thursday]

Yeah, I suppose that quote would apply more to Suzaku than Lelouch. So does Lelouch merely consider his actions to be those necessary to achieve his goal?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Yeah, I suppose that quote would apply more to Suzaku than Lelouch. So does Lelouch merely consider his actions to be those necessary to achieve his goal?

No one ever do anything unless they think it is "necessary", so that's not the issue with Lulu. The point here is he doesn't consider his actions as "justified".

Lulu doesn't actually view himself as being on the moral highground, even though he does have it. People are going to get hurt no matter what he does, and all he could do is to pick which group of people he is hurting.

[Dann of Thursday]

Hence his comment to Suzaku that the world isn't run by ideals?

Then is Lelouch always depicted as "black" due to the fact that he does things that could be considered evil and immoral to some or becuase he gives off the feel to many that he doesn't care, though it seems he does given everything he does.

I suppose that would make his comment about losing his emotions if they become a hinderence an impossible feat for him? It would only be something he'd do to guard his sanity from everything he has on his shoulders since I think thay he may snap if he has to keep doing things like he has, especially if something like the incident with Euphemia occurs again.

And despite all this talk of him being compassionate and empathetic, I still have some worries that he may go too far in the end and lose himself. Of course, it would be a bad message to send out as well as the fact that it would be a bit tragic if everyone who thought Lelouch was a an evil person to be proven right in the end. Of course, perhaps Suzaku will become the one who goes too far in the end.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Hence his comment to Suzaku that the world isn't run by ideals?

Then is Lelouch always depicted as "black" due to the fact that he does things that could be considered evil and immoral to some or becuase he gives off the feel to many that he doesn't care, though it seems he does given everything he does.

I suppose that would make his comment about losing his emotions if they become a hinderence an impossible feat for him? It would only be something he'd do to guard his sanity from everything he has on his shoulders since I think thay he may snap if he has to keep doing things like he has, especially if something like the incident with Euphemia occurs again.

And despite all this talk of him being compassionate and empathetic, I still have some worries that he may go too far in the end and lose himself. Of course, it would be a bad message to send out as well as the fact that it would be a bit tragic if everyone who thought Lelouch was a an evil person to be proven right in the end. Of course, perhaps Suzaku will become the one who goes too far in the end.

Black Knight/Dark Knight = somewhat like a Ronin. Lelouch is a banished prince and he technically doesn't have a country. His original identity is presumed dead. He's a warring royal fighting under a secreat identity. A black knight was a knight that blackened his armor and erased any markings that could link him to his master/liege. Lelouch fights under the secret identity of Zero.

Anyhow, heroes do wear black in fiction. Zorro and Bartman wear black.

Edward the Black Prince, the famous one, was known as a great warrior prince know for being a great tactician and warrior.


I don't think the whole "black motif" has anything to do with "evil." It's more to do with his "mysterious" nature, his bag load of "secrets," and his brooding personallity. To people around him, Lelouch is mysterious.

[Dann of Thursday]

I didn't mean "black" in that sense. It's a little hard to convey what I meant though, so I just meant how Lelouch always seems dark and practically evil with some of the things he does and acts.