2012-12-11, 15:17 | Link #11403 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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For a long time, I have seriously believed that "normal" for human behavior and thoughts simply does not exist. And if it does exist, it is merely the most common type of behavior for humans, nothing more. Of course, when you're neurologically atypical, this type of thinking might be the default. As such, I get confused when two people argue about the "normalcy" and "humanity" of characters. Yes, confused is probably the best way to put it.
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2012-12-11, 15:41 | Link #11404 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 38
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And you think having a moment of doubt before accurately reading the crowd is normal? Damn, you're Plus. So Plus you have no idea what Zero even looks like. Free will is absolutely not the solution to all problems, nor even most of them. Frankly, that's kind of the point of the series. You may note that basically all of Zenkichi's efforts always end in vain, except that one time he had Ajimu "overcome the impossible like it's nothing" Najimi on his side. Devil Style isn't an "I win" card, it's a "Medaka loses" card. |
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2012-12-11, 16:18 | Link #11406 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Though I had put both OP (Lead Color) and AC (Center Color) above it in actual ranking and Beelzebub (the other center color) above it in TOC and below it in actual votes (which we won't know).
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2012-12-11, 16:19 | Link #11407 | ||
The Mage of Four Hearts
Author
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 34
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If they're something I've learned over the years, it's that when it comes to interpersonal relationships, nothing is impossible. Unlikely, yes, impossible, no. Quote:
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2012-12-11, 16:23 | Link #11408 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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After much mentalization, I've figured out what your critical misunderstand is. Here it goes:
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It seems, to me, that you think Devil Style completely eliminates the concepts of chance and specialty. That's completly incorrect. In-fact, Devil Style does the exact opposite. It brings to like the concepts of chance and being special, truly special for what you are. Devil Style's only fuction is to create a world without the unatural(in this case, though, natural) favortism of fate. Before-hand, in Medaka Box, Abnormals would always draw aces, they'd always get straight sixes in dies. That's you being lucky - that's you being favored over others. Except in Medaka Box, not everyone has equal chances at luck. Although, luck dosen't inherently exists(you make your own luck), it's just a byproduct of fate. How can your specialty, your true special human self, shine when you're the one losing simply because you were born under a bad star? Devil Style is basically a skill that speaks of faith. Faith in people. Faith in their ability to not need to be helped by fate(or Medaka - ding ding that's what his whole speech parallels to!). Devil Style is what brings out the inner strenght of people when they live based on their own merits. When they live like us, true humans, and not manga characters. Which is what the real world is all about. Which is what we humans live with every day. Which is what Zenkichi realized about his life, his world and his love. And so, how can you say that his mentality is farthest from the human one, when he is the living embodiment of our reality in Medaka Box? We all think we're special, but that's not because we think we're fated for great things, it's because of our individuality and uniqueness. Fate is what comes in the way of that uniqueness. In a world with Devil Style, where no-one has that biased favoritism, that's where you will subcounsciously speak to yourself: "Yeah, I'm awesome". So no. That train of though is not unsusal, and it's a concept that we humans struggle with everyday because we don't have a clear-cut anwser in our world. So you saing that Zenkichi isn't a normal guy, when he understands his and other's normality best of all, is completely disingenuous. Besides, Ajimu agrees: Spoiler:
Zenkichi was going to become a Super Plus like Medaka, but in the end, what happened? Spoiler:
Nothing. He stayed the same, without anything. He has nothing special at all. Not a plus. Not a minus. Catch was, that now everyone had equal playing fields to go by. Medaka just isn't very suited for facing Zenkichi in speeches when she's not getting backing from God, clearly. Quote:
Devil Style dosen't cast out that notion, it enhances it. Quote:
He never had any doubt about what the students wanted. They, subcounsciously, wanted to feel the specialty, the unqueness that you yourself already mentioned. Having Medaka - and by extension, fate, helping, is a detrimental factor to that. After all, what person hasn't done a great think and chalked it up to as a fluke or mere luck instead of being awesome? Instead of one's own effort? Even though chance is irrefutable even in Medaka Box, the problem with living in Medaka Box is that we, the readers, are aware that events are pre-ordained. Even if the regular character is not, Zenkichi, a regular guy, was made aware of this. And he, knowing and understanding his own normality, decided that he wanted to feel as though his feelings were real. And, inadvertantly, bolstered the subscounscious desire of the students to be special, to not need favoritism. Because we all know Medaka would've won if fate was active, yet, without it, the true desire of the characters could shine. Quote:
Would you like to live in a universe without free-will? Now that's not normal. And Zenkichi saw it as such. He's not normal in the sense of Medaka Box, he's normal in the sense that he's relatable to us, the readers. Quote:
Well, someone better tell Medaka, fast. Because I could've sworn she became 10x happier when she was told to decide her own fate instead of asking Zenkichi for that. Quote:
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It's a leap of faith. Faith in the fact that you can grow-up and not depend on luck or others. And just be awesome because you're yourself. ~~~ Sorry for the long post, but I'm so excited that I finally get to talk about this, I just couldn't contain myself! Quote:
It's just more-than-highly-unsual for Zenkichi because he's 16 years old. Let's be honest here, what kind of 16 years old ties his life to his girlfriend in such a fashion and dosen't most of the time end in disaster. Plus, we've got to consider the fact that they have to come to the realization that Zenkichi might not be comfortable chasing after Medaka for the rest of his life. I mean, just look at the Doctor here.
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2012-12-11, 17:22 | Link #11409 | ||||||||||||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 38
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Although... "That naivete... I don't hate it." Quote:
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Edit: Come to think of it, Acceptance has always been the "Minus virtue". |
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2012-12-11, 17:31 | Link #11410 | ||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
Author
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 34
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There was a man in RL that was struck by lightning seven times and lived. If Devil Style was real, that man would have died the first time lightning hit him. Wouldn't the fact that Devil Style interfered in his life be more abnormal than what actually happened? Quote:
After all, everyone thinks that they're the hero of their own story. People justify things that happen to or because of them in a way that they would never do with other people, because they are themselves. Quote:
As for Devil Style, as I said, I can understand why you think that way, but luck and even fate are a part of human lives, after all, we live in a world with other people, with eons of history behind us, that create our fate. For example, it can be someone's fate to fight, because their parents killed a bunch of people and they come for revenge. Would Devil Style negate that fate as well? You think that Abnormals and Minus are a distortion in the world and that Devil Style removes that distortion. All well and good, but Devil Style itself is a distortion and in the end, you're removing one distortion for another. Just because Devil Style sounds normal, doesn't make it any better Quote:
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Last edited by Endscape; 2012-12-11 at 17:43. |
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2012-12-11, 18:07 | Link #11411 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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But faith in yourself is an important trait, even if you're failing. It's a vital part of the very human soul. Even if you fail, you have to have faith that you will one day try again and you will win. But this is for out world. I Medaka Box, like I stated, fate is a tangible thing. Just look at Unzen always rolling sixes. He's favored, and that's what Zenkichi is getting to. That's what Nishio is getting to. Win without help, do things yourself, have faith in youtself. Sure, sometimes randomness will make you lose, but that's by no means something to disregard your own specialty for, or give-up. And that's what Devil Style enhance by destroying Medaka Box's biased form of luck. Quote:
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And that still dosen't mean you'll always win or lose in an impartial universe, but the importance of Zenkichi understanding the feelings of humans and normals is undeniable. Quote:
You seem to be throughly confusing faith with conviction. Faith in yourself is not an absolute certainty of win, nor have I ever said that. You're either mis-interpreting or making a red-herring here. Quote:
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And, yet again, you seem to be confused on that subject. I told you that randomness is a part of life, so effort won't always be rewarded. But the faith that it might is fundamental to the human condition. Because we all try to do better, to forgive. And if you lose faith in that, you're just like a Kumagawa whose given-up. Which is why destiny and fate sucks. Because it's a non-arbitrary form of luck that rules Medaka Box. Or ruled, if you believe in Devil Style. Quote:
Because in Medaka Box, that slave might've been doomed from the first second the universe was born, so how can we, the readers, who know that we are not bound by a deterministic fate, not see the human in Zenkichi when he understands that fate is an impedement to that very sense you are alluding to? Because if you don't believe that you might succeed, you'll never try or keep trying. Medaka was giving people an easy way out - an I'll help you pass - and Zenkichi is advocating doing things by your own will. Having faith that you can sometimes suceed, and keep trying even if you fail. Quote:
She has lost. That stopped being the point of the series after Zenkichi defeated her. A true defeat isn't something that has to crush you beyond repair, the fact that she learned something from being disproven dosen't lessen her defeat in the least. Quote:
But if you're saying he can NEVER do that, than that's something Medaka and Zenkichi have already debunked. He will try, because he has faith. He won't always win, but he's not giving up. By your "Minus" mentality, it seems as though he should just give-up. And that's just destructive towards human nature. We're resilient creatures, we try to do better. He'll keep trying until he realizes that his behaviour is destructive towards himself, but he is acting in accord to his will, and not giving up until you want to give up is one of the virtue of humans, even if you know you're outmatched, even if you fail sometimes. Quote:
And, again, who is saying that hard work always pays off? You're the one saying that here. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the faith in trying to do better, to do things yourselves in Medaka Box's case is what's humanly important here. And is why Zenkichi understands what normality is. Because he's failed so much, yet has the perseverance to keep faith that he can eventually succeed. And that's important for us humans. ~~~ Endscape, truly sorry, but I really only have the disposition to seriously debate one person at a time. I'll get back onto your stuff when I can, really! I just have certain constraints and such.
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2012-12-11, 19:23 | Link #11412 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Now I remember why I don't like to get into debates. Partly from the fear of losing, but also because of fear of letting it go to something like this. Something about this just makes me shake my head (metaphorically) in worry. 'Tis a shame that I am bad at enunciating my thoughts. Or knowing when something is polite or rude.
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2012-12-11, 22:26 | Link #11415 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
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I wonder if he would kill someone for real though. |
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2012-12-11, 22:29 | Link #11416 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
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2012-12-12, 04:44 | Link #11418 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 38
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2012-12-12, 06:44 | Link #11419 | |
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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They are going to open up the ultimate jump stars gamebon ps3/vita to polls for characters... Needless to say we only have 1 chance at that...
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Kuroganes gonna get cut too, both these cuts are obvious. Hunter x hunter going on hiatus, Reborn ending, momji getting cut and the anime airing have probably giving nisio enough time to do a decent ending unlike mx0 and mago. |
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Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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