2010-06-23, 17:36 | Link #11521 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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As far as I can see, there are only two practical ways for Kinzo's body to turn up burned:
I am not sure which of the two is the more plausible one, as both have some hints I consider fairly solid. The problem with the first is that purposes for keeping a body in the study for an entire year are unknown and no good ideas have been found, even though it otherwise fits Natsuhi's behaviour quite smoothly. The problem with the second is that while it very nicely fits Kanon's introduction scene in Ep1, the wheelbarrow and fertilizer sacks are described rather vaguely and sound kind of a stretch. That also remains a possibility, though I doubt it'd be practical to ferry around two corpses at once, so if it's Shannon's or Kanon's corpse, Kinzo's corpse is elsewhere...
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2010-06-23, 17:46 | Link #11523 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Yeah, s/he probably isn't pushing around more than one body at once. You probably aren't gonna be able to push the body of a guy much larger than you and someone roughly the same size as you at the same time in any case.
It does seem like a bit of a stretch, but on the other hand, it does seem to scream "CLUE!" at you :P. At the very least, he probably isn't giving the roses a last minute dose of emergency fertilization. |
2010-06-23, 18:55 | Link #11524 |
Wild Speculator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
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A thought on the whole wheelbarrow thing that resolves your vague issues. What if the fertilizer is a cover for Kanon already having moved the corpse and we are seeing the aftereffects of that? If we can agree that emergency fertilization is unreasonable and silly, then why on earth would the fertilizer even be out? Hell, would Kanon even normally need a wheelbarrow as part of his duties? It doesn't seem to be that much of a stretch for someone to have "forgotten" to have stored stored away the fertilizer in light of the typhoon in order to give Kanon an excuse to have the wheelbarrow out to make away with Kinzo's corpse. And if he's already done the deed, it would explain why he's so weak and why Battler had no problems with it while ensuring that the fertilizer itself is not suspicious.
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2010-06-23, 19:47 | Link #11525 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
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If we discount a multiple person plot, (it feels to me that Kinzo burning is someone's personal idea, but it's mostly an intuition right now) to excavate the corpse safely and conveniently, the following conditions should be met:
If burning Kinzo is part of the planned fake murder conspiracy, it becomes easier to do and more characters can do it since they can cover for each other's absence, but then we just don't really know who does it. EDIT: P.S. Why in particular it could be Kanon's personal idea: Kanon is repeatedly shown to have an Anti-Beatrice (which implies Anti-Fake-Murders-Conspiracy) stance, an Anti-Kinzo-Phantom-Conspiracy stance, and otherwise appears disinclined to participate in any plotting. Yet he pretty much inevitably has to be in on both of those through someone's pressure. If the fake murder plot involves using Kanon's 'corpse', he may get a clever idea to give both plots a kick in the shin by using Kinzo's corpse instead of his own.
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2010-06-23, 20:01 | Link #11526 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-06-23, 20:03 | Link #11527 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Possibly because that throws the epitaph order off. By inserting an extra corpse, he reduces the number of people it is possible to kill while being 'explained' by the epitaph by one.
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2010-06-24, 02:05 | Link #11528 | ||
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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.....If we add that he'll fake his own death to hunt the murderer, then wouldn't that basically become episode 1? Quote:
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2010-06-24, 04:26 | Link #11529 | ||
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Location: In a badly written story.
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My second thought was, it's obviously buried with Kinzo! The ring is just a symbol, it doesn't make one the head. Kinzo is supposed to disappear without a trace, and the ring would inevitably be with him if he took a walk. Getting caught with it afterwards is getting accused of murder, so it's better to just keep it on his finger. Now I'm not sure which possibility to pick! The ring being buried sounds quite possible -- forging Kinzo's handwriting is hard, since the children are obviously very familiar with it, and would create solid physical evidence that can be used against Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy, so denying yourself the possibility doesn't change anything. If the ring was buried with Kinzo, the following possibilities exist for the letters:
There is one thing about Kinzo burning that complicates things a lot, namely, the key to the study that is supposedly found on Kinzo's body. Only two keys to the study exist, one of them with Natsuhi if we trust Ep5, another with Genji. In the morning of Ep1, Genji gives his key to Natsuhi, so for a period she has the only two keys to the study, then she gives one back to Genji. After Kinzo is discovered, Genji demonstrates a burnt and dirty key to the study together with his own, though he is never shown to actually be taking it from the body. Then, in the discord letter scene, Genji hands over both keys. This requires that Natsuhi hand over her own key to Genji at some point, which is sort of odd and the whole thing creates a mess. If Natsuhi is not aware beforehand that Kinzo has been dug up and will be burned, seeing a burned key demonstrated means Genji tricked her -- there could not be a key on the body before it was buried. It is not necessary to muck up the key if the idea is to pretend Genji took it from the burned body -- one could make a show of rubbing it off instead and that would be easier and work the same. The only key that could actually be on the body when it was burned would be Genji's own key and not Natsuhi's. Either key could be mucked up otherwise, but then it wouldn't look very burned. If Natsuhi is aware of the exhumation, she also has to know who has the ring, if not actually be in control of it, so this pretty much catapults her to the top of the Fake Death Conspiracy, and then she would have to see through the Counter-Fake-Death-Conspiracy in Ep5. So what the heck is going on in here?
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2010-06-24, 05:22 | Link #11530 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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He's going back to the mansion in that scene, right? Which also begs the question of why he took so many sacks of fertilizer he didn't need :P.
He could've also already solved the epitaph, and is bringing back some bars of gold hidden inside fertilizer sacks. Would explain why he has so many when he'd only need one sack to carry Kinzo around in... we know from the second episode that someone had already found the gold before the first twilight. Kinda torn on "ring is buried with Kinzo" too. The ring would obviously be crucial evidence against Krauss and Natsuhi if found... where do you think they'd hide it if it weren't buried with him? |
2010-06-24, 05:51 | Link #11531 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
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A ring is very easy to hide by the virtue of being small, and if you aren't planning to need it anytime soon, the number of options is really vast. If they do plan to use it, cutting a hole in a few pages in one of Kinzo's books is all it would take.
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2010-06-24, 05:55 | Link #11532 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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It'd probably be more than 10 times, actually :/. Although Rosa carried a gold bar in a sack just fine at the end of episode 2, didn't she?
And even though, logically, it'd be very easy to hide a ring, wouldn't Knox demand we get some kind of clue? Also, heh, only just noticed the 7 stakes correspond to the 7 parents. |
2010-06-24, 06:13 | Link #11533 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
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I don't remember any objects mentioned which sound like they could be good specific hiding places for a ring, though. Umineko is generally low on objects, characters speak almost entirely in terms of doors, keys and witness reports about positions. The chess metaphor is somewhat justified in this way, as a chess piece taken by another piece is not offered a chance to fight back. Though, there's one object I'm wondering why they never investigated. The umbrella Maria got. If anyone remembered ever seeing this umbrella, they could know who's it is...
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2010-06-24, 06:46 | Link #11534 | |||
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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No, wait a minute. Hold that thought. I just checked episode 2, and the mocking "letter" was not actually a letter at all. Just a sheet of paper. Maybe we should check all the letters left for the survivors and see which ones are actually in envelope, and which ones are not. That way, it could be possible to see if only those letters in envelopes are "neutral" and do not describe the events, and thus could have been written a year ago. Actually, after checking the boiler scene again, it seems that the whole thing is more than bit strange. Natsuhi and Genji are quite calm, despite seeing the burnt body of Kinzo. Now, think about it for a moment. If they didn't know that Kinzo's body was burnt, and thought it was somewhere safe/buried, then at least Natsuhi would most positively freak out in a major way. And then there's the key-thing you mentioned, which is weird to say at least. Hmm, let's try something like this: There's actually a "epitaph killing" party, which tries to kill the people according to epitaph, not just fake murders. Kanon was part of it, but decided to betray the group. He dug up Kinzo's corpse, hid it in the underground storageroom, and told about the whole thing to Genji and Natsuhi. The three devised a plan which to use to catch the culprits. The key which Natsuhi used to open Kinzo's study was actually her own, and it had been given to Genji just moments prior. Genji's key was with Kanon, and he burned it at the same time as he burned Kinzo's corpse. After the Second Twilight, Kanon rushed to the boiler room, faked his death along with Kinzo's. This created "discord" among the epitaph killing party, as they had no idea what was going on anymore. Meanwhile, Kanon was free to kill off the epitaph killing party members in a Wargrave-esque manner. ......Okayyyy, maybe a bit too complicated and far-fetched. But it just shows how weird the whole thing with Kinzo's burnt corpse is.
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2010-06-24, 07:23 | Link #11535 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
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The key in Maria's envelope is sealed, though. Quote:
...though, from Ep1, the thought that Kanon probably suspects Shannon is the murderer pops up rather often.
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2010-06-24, 07:31 | Link #11536 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway the idea that Kinzo was in the fertilizer bag is cool under a certain pow but I don't think it's very probable. I mean there was plenty of time for Kanon to dug up the body beforehand, there's no reason to wait until the whole family arrives on the island just in time to be seen by all of them. I know procrastination is a hard beast to beat but this sounds a little ridiculous. Plus a body after more than one year should stink a lot, it should be full of worms and other amenities. How the hell Kanon managed to seal it inside a fertilizer bag if he was in a hurry? As for the ring, Genji in EP1 looks surprised that the ring on Kinzo's hand is missing, he's the first to notice. In EP6 Genji is the first to notice Kinzo's ring on Battler's finger. It is as if Genji knows where the ring is supposed to be, either that or it's part of the plan that he makes everyone notice about the ring. As for Natsuhi, Verg Avesta has a point when he says that Natsuhi was too calm when she notices Kinzo's body. But actually she was too calm even after seeing Krauss's body. If there is a fake murder mystery plan that can explain why Natsuhi is calm about Krauss' death, but Kinzo's burnt body? This event is actually very convenient for Natsuhi, it solves all of her problems... well actually I don't know if an autopsy wouldn't reveal that Kinzo has been death for more than one year, I guess it depends on how much it burned. The problem is this doesn't really match with the fake murder scenario. The fake murder plot requires a lot of people involved for some kind of joke or game. But when you see the corpse of Kinzo burned it shouldn't be a joke anymore. People that until that point were only playing a part in a "funny game" should become frantic and panicked as soon as they realize people are dying for real, but we have never witnessed such a change in someone's behavior, right?
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2010-06-24, 07:59 | Link #11537 | ||||
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Which kind of speaks out against any fake murder theory, doesn't it?
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2010-06-24, 08:21 | Link #11538 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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How could there be fake murders in most of the games anyway? It's pretty difficult to survive having half your head blown off or your face smashed in... and Beatrice said that, for the first episode, No corpses were misidentified, meaning that there can't have been any dummy corpses in there. Similarly, in episode 3 and episode 5, the deaths of the first twilight victims were confirmed...
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2010-06-24, 08:30 | Link #11539 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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But you're right about the other thing. At some point some innocent party should fray. It's possible they are doing it, and it's a more subtle cue. Natsuhi's personality changes quite a bit once she starts taking charge in ep1. She could be just trying to act tough, or someone working against the real killer (such as Kanon or Genji or whoever) has told her not to show weakness and see if it exposes somebody. In ep2, though, Rosa starts going pretty nuts. I think the text covers this up with the Rosa/Maria relationship, but she's definitely starting to wear down and become paranoid. She eventually kicks Battler out, even though he's been with her the entire time. That's not rational, unless you think there's something really strange going on. A fake death plot you were made aware of the night before that's turned into real murders you think are going to be blamed on you probably qualifies as"something strange."
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2010-06-24, 08:34 | Link #11540 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
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In particular, in Ep3, people can die in the time span between them being discovered and their rooms being opened and before the situation is described to Battler with the red -- one of the adults can just lag behind and kill them. In Ep5, the corpses are missing, but after their death the bodies have not been moved, which the Stakes gleefully announce when picking on Erika. This is only possible if they died after their bodies were "discovered".
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