Penguin Drum - General Discussion

[gsilver]

At any rate, with the diary ripped in half, Ringo's character is going to have to change a lot, quickly.

I'll be surprised if Shoma doesn't recover quickly... but I've been surprised before.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by gsilver

I'll be surprised if Shoma doesn't recover quickly... but I've been surprised before.

Just give the boy a penguin hat of his own.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Just give the boy a penguin hat of his own.

PoC has something else now to make Kanba toe the party line. So where was his penguin when all of this was happening?

[wandering-dreamer]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Just give the boy a penguin hat of his own.

Heck, maybe it'll make him turn into that blue haired girl in the ED!

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I know some of the hints are easy to miss, but for example, while the Takakura siblings have penguins, Ringo is a penguin herself. And if that wasn't enough, she's also the apple (the key to heaven, as indicated by the reference to Kenji's novel). I don't know what all this means, of course, but I know it means something. That's why I can't dismiss Ringo as another Sayaka or any other semi-important secondary character.

You are right I initially thought that Ringo's "story" might be over after the next episode coinciding with the end of the 1st novel but it's possible that isn't true. Still I think something major is going to change for Ringo in the next episode.

But I never really thought of the fact that Ringo is the apple that was discussed in the first episode. That does make perfect sense to me.

Ringo being a Penguin though I am not sure I understand, care to elaborate?

[Jan Jansen]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You didn't watch Madoka, did you? Subverting expectations is always a risk, but if you know what you're doing it can be a powerful storytelling tool. Besides, you're assuming Ringo isn't a main character because of how she appears in the opening, but Ikuhara explicitly said in an interview that she is the other heroine of the piece. In other words, she's not a Nanami-like character, she's Anthy (along with Himari), if you know what I mean.

I watched PMMM, and loved every moment. Urubuchi Gen subverted viewer expectations by deconstructing and rebuilding the magical girl show, but that's a very different thing than what MPD is doing.

Imagine if PMMM, starting with the second episode, had focused chiefly on Madoka's mom and her career stresses, with a minute or two of token magical girl-ism in each episode. Viewers would have been all WTF.

That's what I feel we're getting in MPD. We were promised a show about Love, and Death, and Fate and an alien penguin hat. What we are getting a detailed examination of the psychological downward spiral of a pathologic personality, with all other themes pushed aside.

Ikuhara can tell interviewers whatever he likes, but the show has to stand on its own merits. Madoka was a major part of every episode of PMMM. Anthy was a major element of Episode 1 of SKU, and every episode thereafter. If Himari and Ringo are co-heroines, Ringo should have had more than a cameo in Episode 1, and Himari should have had a significant role in every subsequent episode.

I was fine with MPD up through Episode 6, maybe even 7. It's only with Ep. 8 that I felt the show had really become unbalanced and Ringo-centric. However -- no one but the production team knows where MPD goes from here. Ikuhara could find a way to pull things out. I remember quite a bit of fan frustration by Ep. 9 of PMMM, too. Then came Ep. 10. Whoa!

Oh, and there's something else that disturbs me about Ep 8, and others have mentioned it as well. Ringo has crossed a line. She is still being presented as a comic character -- the Western fantasy, for example. But this is a girl who, only a little later, is guilty of poisoning and attempted rape. That's sort of a comedy killer, unless this show turns in to a very black comedy, which I don't think is Ikuhara's territory. At this point, I don't see how Ringo, who has been a comic, tragic, poignant and (at least to me) sympathetic character up to now, can have a good ending. To paraphrase Sho, her heart has crossed the line into sociopathy.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So, am I the only one who thinks Himari is hiding something behind that lovely smile of hers? I bet she's more twisted than Ringo. Ok, no, I'm exaggerating quite a bit, but I do think there's more to her than meets the eye, and not in a good way...

There's definitely a lot more going on Himari. It's also pretty clear that the show has no intention of telling us what that is until the time is right.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Macross is an actual saga though. As far as I know Utena has no actual relationship to MPD (save for sharing the same director) other than one that this thread is trying to superficially create at times.

Has anyone really tried to make any connections between the two shows? If they were, then they were dead wrong because there are no real similarities between them. The contextual connection is a different matter though. It's like how it'd be useful to have watched Rose of Versailles before watching chevalier d'Eon. The newer show is informed by the older one, and a more experience viewer will have a better idea of how to interept the story elements. In a show with a purposely obtuse story structure like Penguindrum, it's all that much more useful.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You didn't watch Madoka, did you? Subverting expectations is always a risk, but if you know what you're doing it can be a powerful storytelling tool. Besides, you're assuming Ringo isn't a main character because of how she appears in the opening, but Ikuhara explicitly said in an interview that she is the other heroine of the piece. In other words, she's not a Nanami-like character, she's Anthy (along with Himari), if you know what I mean.

Provided that Ikuhara's not lying! I agree with you though, Himari is going to be a very important character. I'd think of her more as the Akio stand-in though.

Originally Posted by Jan Jansen

I watched PMMM, and loved every moment. Urubuchi Gen subverted viewer expectations by deconstructing and rebuilding the magical girl show, but that's a very different thing than what MPD is doing.

Imagine if PMMM, starting with the second episode, had focused chiefly on Madoka's mom and her career stresses, with a minute or two of token magical girl-ism in each episode. Viewers would have been all WTF.

That's what I feel we're getting in MPD. We were promised a show about Love, and Death, and Fate and an alien penguin hat. What we are getting a detailed examination of the psychological downward spiral of a pathologic personality, with all other themes pushed aside.

Ikuhara seems to be going out of his way to subvert the standard story narrative. It's almost the opposite of Utena where the setup of most of the episodes is firmly established in the premise of the show. Every episode of Penguindrum has been pretty darned unpredictable - just as what will happen in episode 9 is unpredictable at this point.

Moreover, the Ringo stories have been about Love and Death and Fate - they might do so in a way you didn't expect, but that was probably the point.

Originally Posted by Jan Jansen

Ikuhara can tell interviewers whatever he likes, but the show has to stand on its own merits. Madoka was a major part of every episode of PMMM. Anthy was a major element of Episode 1 of SKU, and every episode thereafter. If Himari and Ringo are co-heroines, Ringo should have had more than a cameo in Episode 1, and Himari should have had a significant role in every subsequent episode.

Introducing the main characters at the very beginning as major characters is one storytelling method, but it's not the only one.

Originally Posted by Jan Jansen

I was fine with MPD up through Episode 6, maybe even 7. It's only with Ep. 8 that I felt the show had really become unbalanced and Ringo-centric. However -- no one but the production team knows where MPD goes from here. Ikuhara could find a way to pull things out.

Episode 7 was the most Ringo-centric episode. Episode 8 does more to converge the different storylines with Shouma being the most important character and perhaps tying both the Project Ms together. It's possibly more plot-centric than any episode other than Episode 1 (probably - depending on what the plot actually is).

Originally Posted by Jan Jansen

Oh, and there's something else that disturbs me about Ep 8, and others have mentioned it as well. Ringo has crossed a line. She is still being presented as a comic character -- the Western fantasy, for example. But this is a girl who, only a little later, is guilty of poisoning and attempted rape. That's sort of a comedy killer, unless this show turns in to a very black comedy, which I don't think is Ikuhara's territory. At this point, I don't see how Ringo, who has been a comic, tragic, poignant and (at least to me) sympathetic character up to now, can have a good ending. To paraphrase Sho, her heart has crossed the line into sociopathy.

This should be Ringo's breaking point as a character. She's unlikely to keep her comic tone after this point. Maybe.

[Faerie]

If I may- I had the same feelings about the show being very Ringo-centric so far, and I, too, had expected her story to be finished after one or two episodes and that we would move on after that. In the style of most shows, and Utena itself progressed like that with most of its cast, save Utena and Anthy, and there was always a balance between the heroines.

Now, but personally, I sometimes get really fed up with the heroines, because they just hog the screen, when I want to be seeing the (more interesting) side characters stories.
Which is pretty much, what people are feeling about Ringo now- we want to see the brothers' and Himari's story.
But, had Ringo's story been teased at, and we had already learned loads of stuff about the siblings, we'd be dying to hear Ringo's story- which then, after much anticipation turns out the be the classical crazy person that we expected- because the mysterious side character/ co-heroine, if we go by our expectations from Utena, has to be batshit insane.

So, maybe, just maybe, instead of giving us what we expect, in a storytelling sense, he's feeding us stuff backwards. That is, for one, interesting storytelling and for another it keeps interest in the siblings alive, instead of annoying us with them being the main focus. Whereas it doesn't matter if we're annoyed with Ringo- she's a psychotic rapist lunatic, she's not made to be widely loved.
I'm assuming that this type of show will make a lot more sense when viewed as one. The episodic nature, not knowing where things are going makes it confusing.
Maybe I'm imagining this, but it's just a thought...
We will obviously learn about the siblings eventually, but I'm really worried about the rest of the cast from the OP, that hasn't even been introduced yet...

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Has anyone really tried to make any connections between the two shows? If they were, then they were dead wrong because there are no real similarities between them. The contextual connection is a different matter though. It's like how it'd be useful to have watched Rose of Versailles before watching chevalier d'Eon. The newer show is informed by the older one, and a more experience viewer will have a better idea of how to interept the story elements. In a show with a purposely obtuse story structure like Penguindrum, it's all that much more useful.

Ummm you? Like constantly. I mean you don't make direct connections, but you sure as heck do bring it and Ikuhara up in reference more than enough to fulfill the already present quota in this thread should the other users end up dropping off.

Frankly I didn't even need to watch more than a volume of Utena to know that it and this one have very little in common other than certain stylizations. This is why I keep arguing that it should have little to no bearing on this thread and why I argued that there should be little need to watch it in order to enjoy this. Unfortunately it seems some people are just too big on Ikuhara and trying to push his other series a little too much here rather than allow him and his current work to speak for itself.

Personally I think if the series does become incapable of speaking for itself without Utena than that is hugely to this shows detriment. People can try to sugarcoat it all they want and put on their nostalgia glasses for that show and Ikuhara, but it'll still be a pretty big problem with the narrative. Luckily I've come to have reasonable faith in this guy just in the 8 episodes I've seen so far so I don't think that will actually end up happening, which is all the more reason I call this passive aggressive push by some users (yourself included quite honestly) to get people to check out Utena in the midst of Penguindrum more than a little silly.

How about we try this instead? We let the show finish. If people like it and Ikuhara's style of directing there's a very good chance they end up checking out Utena anyway and becoming a fan of his style without having overbearing fans steering them towards it and telling them how to approach Ikuhara's style.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

You can watch Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" and judge the movie on its own. But isn't it better if you have already watched the other movies by Kubrick so that you understand the director's usual style and themes?
It is not required that you watch Utena in order to criticize MPD but it certainly doesn't harm you to do it.

No because you have to start somewhere. If you start with another of his movies (personally I've seen almost all of them at this point) you'll still run into the same problem if it's going to be one so you might as well just start with Eyes Wide Shut, watch the other ones and then possibly come back to see if there's anything you missed. Likewise here you have two starting options, MPD or Utena. Whichever you chose if you still have trouble understanding the director you still have trouble understanding the director. Since most people are still in the midst of MPD it only makes sense to finish that and then tackle Utena if they want to.

Anyway at this point I'm just failing to understand the logic behind this push by some people to get other users to watch Utena. Frankly it doesn't look like there is any real rationale to benefit the viewers of MPD and that some people are in fact just being pushy fanboys here. I've tried to keep from calling it how I see it, but this has gone on long enough that I think it's time to shine a light on the real problem here.

[SoFarGone]

I don't know why people are worrying about other characters when there are 2/3 of the show left.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I'm really worried about the rest of the cast from the OP, that hasn't even been introduced yet...

The only one who still hasn't show up is Sanetoshi (man Utena) and you'll see him soon enough. All the other characters from the OP have already been introduced.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

So, maybe, just maybe, instead of giving us what we expect, in a storytelling sense, he's feeding us stuff backwards. That is, for one, interesting storytelling and for another it keeps interest in the siblings alive, instead of annoying us with them being the main focus. Whereas it doesn't matter if we're annoyed with Ringo- she's a psychotic rapist lunatic, she's not made to be widely loved.
I'm assuming that this type of show will make a lot more sense when viewed as one. The episodic nature, not knowing where things are going makes it confusing.
Maybe I'm imagining this, but it's just a thought...

Penguindrum is going to be one of those shows that improves on rewatches. I don't think that you're expected to catch everything on a first watch (if ever!), and Ikuhara is deliberately trying to befuddle the audience. If the interviews are any indication, the voice actors have no idea what's going on either.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

We will obviously learn about the siblings eventually, but I'm really worried about the rest of the cast from the OP, that hasn't even been introduced yet...

The only characters that we know much about are Shouma and Ringo. And I'm sure that Shouma has something hidden as well.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Ummm you? Like constantly. I mean you don't make direct connections, but you sure as heck do bring it and Ikuhara up in reference more than enough to fulfill the already present quota in this thread should the other users end up dropping off.

Given how strong Ikuhara's influence is on this show, it'd be a surprise that he isn't brought up more often. It's no different from discussing David Lynch a lot if he were to make another TV series.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Personally I think if the series does become incapable of speaking for itself without Utena than that is hugely to this shows detriment. People can try to sugarcoat it all they want and put on their nostalgia glasses for that show and Ikuhara, but it'll still be a pretty big problem with the narrative. Luckily I've come to have reasonable faith in this guy just in the 8 episodes I've seen so far so I don't think that will actually end up happening, which is all the more reason I call this passive aggressive push by some users (yourself included quite honestly) to get people to check out Utena in the midst of Penguindrum more than a little silly.

Look, saying that "Utena is a useful frame of reference" is not at all the same as "Go watch Utena if you want to understand Penguindrum".

Utena is a very useful frame of reference because Penguindrum isn't finished yet. It's a show that's intended to be watched multiple times, and as such, we're given a very incomplete picture of what is going on. There are different ways to try to fill in the missing parts, but it's awfully hard to do so without an understanding of the elements going into the show.

By the time Penguindrum is finished, we should have all the tools needed to piece the story tapestry together. But until then, we will have to make do. My point is that the speculation we're involved would be a lot more effective with those references in mind. How else do you propose we proceed? How else are we supposed to try to figure out things about Tabuki's character? Or Yuri? Or Masako?

Personally, I think that we should all watch Utena and Oniisama e and Rose of Versailles and Night on the Galactic Railroad and Eastwood's Man with No Name films. But we should do so because they're damned good works rather than beause of Penguindrum.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

How about we try this instead? We let the show finish. If people like it and Ikuhara's style of directing there's a very good chance they end up checking out Utena anyway and becoming a fan of his style without having overbearing fans steering them towards it and telling them how to approach Ikuhara's style.

So we shouldn't talk about the direction style of Penguindrum? That seems a bit weird given that Ikuhara's name is in the title of this thread. Although I'm holding off on the heavy speculation until all of the characters have been introduced.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Given how strong Ikuhara's influence is on this show, it'd be a surprise that he isn't brought up more often. It's no different from discussing David Lynch a lot if he were to make another TV series.

Yeah see, here's the thing again. You and various others seem to think that because Ikuhara is what drew you to this show it must neccessarily be the case for everyone. See I'd heard of David Lynch, but I'd honestly never heard of Ikuhara before this show and frankly still don't care right now because I'm watching the show within it's own context and letting it speak for itself, much like Guardian Enzo for example. Again not everybody feels that Ikuhara need be the center of attention here, much like not everybody feels Ringo need remain the center of the shows attention for much longer. I think it helps to understand how different people approach the same show differently if you want to understand what I'm trying to point out to you here.

Look, saying that "Utena is a useful frame of reference" is not at all the same as "Go watch Utena if you want to understand Penguindrum".

I never actually disagreed with this sentiment, but I also don't see how it being a useful frame of reference seems to necessitate it being a required frame of reference like Gohan78 seems to be arguing and you seem to be arguing albeit in a more veiled manner.

Utena is a very useful frame of reference because Penguindrum isn't finished yet. It's a show that's intended to be watched multiple times, and as such, we're given a very incomplete picture of what is going on. There are different ways to try to fill in the missing parts, but it's awfully hard to do so without an understanding of the elements going into the show.

Which is precisely why it should be allowed to finish before passing the final judgement call. Like I'm with you on that point you've been arguing 100% here, but I also don't see why people can't be allowed to judge the show independent of speculation about what might be coming based on a directors input in a complete unrelated work 15+ years ago. Guardian Enzo makes a good point, just because some people feel that Utena was a masterpiece doesn't necessarily require that people treat this show as a masterpiece in the making and completely hold off on all critical commentary until the fated final episode. Especially if they don't know or care that much about Ikuhara or Utena.

By the time Penguindrum is finished, we should have all the tools needed to piece the story tapestry together. But until then, we will have to make do. My point is that the speculation we're involved would be a lot more effective with those references in mind. How else do you propose we proceed? How else are we supposed to try to figure out things about Tabuki's character? Or Yuri? Or Masako?

One can only hope for sure, but at this time it's mere speculation as you say. And as I said I think we best proceed by continuing to allow the show and Ikuhara's direction of it to speak for itself and gauge it within that context as opposed to a 15 year old unrelated show's legacy. If people want to go running off to watch a 15 year old show because they feel that they can't understand the one they are watching otherwise then that's there call, but I fail to see the point in doing so and it really would weaken MPD's own strength of narrative in my eyes if it were actually required to do so to get the most out of this experience.

Personally, I think that we should all watch Utena and Oniisama e and Rose of Versailles and Night on the Galactic Railroad and Eastwood's Man with No Name films. But we should do so because they're damned good works rather than beause of Penguindrum.

If you say so, but it's up to other people to make the call on what they want to watch and don't want watch. What you posit is merely a suggestion based on your own preference in anime though and I think it's important to bear that in mind going forward.

So we shouldn't talk about the direction style of Penguindrum? That seems a bit weird given that Ikuhara's name is in the title of this thread. Although I'm holding off on the heavy speculation until all of the characters have been introduced.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the talk about the direction style has arguably superceded talk about the actual show at various points in this thread and that some people seem to be arguing that all misgivings towards the show can be remedied by people familiarizing themselves with Ikuhara's style and past work, which assumes that all people even care about or idolize the guy for his past work in the first place enough for that to have an impact on their views on this show. Again you make a lot of assumptions that everyone's taste is aligned with your own when it comes to Ikuhara and anime, and that to me is a pretty gapping flaw in this whole argument of yours.

That's why I continue say that it's best to allow the show to speak for itself moving forward. It's the one thing everyone in this thread has in common, that they are watching this particular show at this particular time more or less alongside everyone else in the thread.

edit: Also Ikuhara's name is in the thread title because someone put it there, not because it's actually required to be there.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The only one who still hasn't show up is Sanetoshi (man Utena) and you'll see him soon enough. All the other characters from the OP have already been introduced.

That's true =) and I'm not too bothered, we're only at episode 8 after all. But I do hope we'll get the same amount of depth for Himari& Co as we got for Ringo. I guess it's a given that we're not going to go all that deep into the side characters, but that was expected.
Utena had a huge cast too, and they managed to tell everyone's story, so I'm happy to assume it'll be done well here too.

Where did you get Man!Utena's name from btw? Just curious

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Penguindrum is going to be one of those shows that improves on rewatches. I don't think that you're expected to catch everything on a first watch (if ever!), and Ikuhara is deliberately trying to befuddle the audience. If the interviews are any indication, the voice actors have no idea what's going on either.

I was thinking the same, and personally I like this a lot- but I can see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.
It's the type of show where you need to be pretty patient and just go along with it. Then re-watch it, once it finished airing.
And I honestly think, I might've gotten fed up with Himari by now, had the story initially focussed on her, so I'm happy with the storytelling.

I'm also not surprised that it appears Ringo is being portrayed as humorous despite being a rapist crazy...
Nanami killed kittens, and she still spent an entire episode as a cow for laughs.

The only characters that we know much about are Shouma and Ringo. And I'm sure that Shouma has something hidden as well.

positively. Everyone's going to have some sort of issues. We'd have less to do if we speculated who was actually just normal..

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Yeah see, here's the thing again. You and various others seem to think that because Ikuhara is what drew you to this show it must neccessarily be the case for everyone.

Where does that assumption come from? It's obvious that lots of viewers haven't watched Utena, and that's the only real reason for knowing about Ikuhara.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I think it helps to understand how different people approach the same show differently if you want to understand what I'm trying to point out to you here.

Is anyone trying to claim otherwise?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I never actually disagreed with this sentiment, but I also don't see how it being a useful frame of reference seems to necessitate it being a required frame of reference like Gohan78 seems to be arguing and you seem to be arguing albeit in a more veiled manner.

Hold on there. How does "it's useful to know" mean anything like that? I think you're reading way too much into things.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Which is precisely why it should be allowed to finish before passing the final judgement call.

Has anyone made the claim that we shouldn't watch the whole show?

This is precisely something which having watched Utena helps with. There's a bunch of posters who were criticizing the pacing and the lack of plot progression. However, Utena was the same way - at Episode 8 of that show, there had been basically no plot progression and no firm idea of what the plot even was or what the show was about.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

If you say so, but it's up to other people to make the call on what they want to watch and don't want watch. What you posit is merely a suggestion based on your own preference in anime though and I think it's important to bear that in mind going forward.

Well of course, why would anyone suggest otherwise?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the talk about the direction style has arguably superceded talk about the actual show at various points in this thread and that some people seem to be arguing that all misgivings towards the show can be remedied by people familiarizing themselves with Ikuhara's style and past work, which assumes that all people even care about or idolize the guy for his past work in the first place enough for that to have an impact on their views on this show. Again you make a lot of assumptions that everyone's taste is aligned with your own when it comes to Ikuhara and anime, and that to me is a pretty gapping flaw in this whole argument of yours.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea for this tangent.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I was thinking the same, and personally I like this a lot- but I can see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.
It's the type of show where you need to be pretty patient and just go along with it. Then re-watch it, once it finished airing.

The sheer density of the visual imagery makes it a necessity. Take the Klimt painting for instance. There's just too much going on there in an image that's only onscreen for ~10 seconds to absorb properly. And then there's stuff like trying to figure out if the Penguins' antics have any significance beyond simple humor. Or whether random objects in rooms have any meaning. Or Ringo's fantasies, and so on.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

positively. Everyone's going to have some sort of issues. We'd have less to do if we speculated who was actually just normal..

If Ikuhara is to be believed, the number of normal characters = 0.

[KRegnard]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Where does that assumption come from? It's obvious that lots of viewers haven't watched Utena, and that's the only real reason for knowing about Ikuhara.

You are misrepresenting Kaioshin's argument, he never said that people watching MPD necessarily have watched Utena. What I think he means is that people who have not watched Utena should not be criticised, or frowned down upon for criticising MPD. From what I've seen in this thread, it's mostly Ikuhara and Utena worship. Well yeah, Utena might've been great, but this doesn't mean that Ikuhara or Utena should be the only perspective to view MPD.

Has anyone made the claim that we shouldn't watch the whole show?

This is precisely something which having watched Utena helps with. There's a bunch of posters who were criticizing the pacing and the lack of plot progression. However, Utena was the same way - at Episode 8 of that show, there had been basically no plot progression and no firm idea of what the plot even was or what the show was about.

You are missing the point of his argument yet again. What he is trying to say is that MPD's drawback is (given what you claim about having greater appreciation of it having watched Utena) that it will only be a masterpiece as a whole, and will face criticism from some non-Utena watchers. I think such criticism is fair, you don't expect everyone to have watched Utena, and even if that were the case, it does not necessarily mean that MPD rehashes things or references Utena.

[Jan Jansen]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Likewise here you have two starting options, MPD or Utena.

Or Sailor Moon.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Where does that assumption come from? It's obvious that lots of viewers haven't watched Utena, and that's the only real reason for knowing about Ikuhara.


Is anyone trying to claim otherwise?


Hold on there. How does "it's useful to know" mean anything like that? I think you're reading way too much into things.


Has anyone made the claim that we shouldn't watch the whole show?

This is precisely something which having watched Utena helps with. There's a bunch of posters who were criticizing the pacing and the lack of plot progression. However, Utena was the same way - at Episode 8 of that show, there had been basically no plot progression and no firm idea of what the plot even was or what the show was about.


Well of course, why would anyone suggest otherwise?


I'm not sure where you're getting the idea for this tangent.

So let me try to break down what you are saying here. Essentially your goal as stated is that your sole intention is to, through your own personal experiences, try to provide others with the best possible route to enjoy something/someone that you value greatly. If that truly is your sole intention than it is indeed a noble one that I can definitely relate to and support completely. You've come forward here in manner that strikes me as genuine and as such I'm inclined to believe that your aim is to truly benefit people and nothing more, however I hope you continue to bear in mind what people have shared with you in this thread regarding how your intent has come across at times.

Again though I can't help but feel that allowing people to work through the show on their own without supplementary material should achieve the same result in the long run if your faith in Ikuhara is that strong and not misplaced. The benefit of your experiences with Ikuhara is probably best placed in the purely explanatory and informative (i.e "here's what I think he intended with x based on my experiences with y") as opposed to how people should approach the show in terms of critique.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by KRegnard

You are misrepresenting Kaioshin's argument, he never said that people watching MPD necessarily have watched Utena. What I think he means is that people who have not watched Utena should not be criticised, or frowned down upon for criticising MPD. From what I've seen in this thread, it's mostly Ikuhara and Utena worship. Well yeah, Utena might've been great, but this doesn't mean that Ikuhara or Utena should be the only perspective to view MPD.

I think that we can leave it to Kaioshin to clarify what he actually meant. However, I don't see a whole lot of people trying to claim that you have to have watched Utena or be an Ikuhara fan to appreciate Penguindrum. Certainly, my position that the previous experience is useful for analysis, not anything else.

Originally Posted by KRegnard

You are missing the point of his argument yet again. What he is trying to say is that MPD's drawback is (given what you claim about having greater appreciation of it having watched Utena) that it will only be a masterpiece as a whole, and will face criticism from some non-Utena watchers. I think such criticism is fair, you don't expect everyone to have watched Utena, and even if that were the case, it does not necessarily mean that MPD rehashes things or references Utena.

My claim wasn't about Utena fans having greater appreciation, it's that we have greater patience when it comes to plot progression. Most of us have been realistic in pointing out that Penguindrum has been almost completely different from Utena. There have been only two or three references to that show. To note, both Night on the Galactic Railroad and Ikeda Riyoko's works have been referenced far more times.

Originally Posted by Jan Jansen

Or Sailor Moon.

Sailor Moon is a bit of a curious beast because I don't think most fans are all that aware of Ikuhara's style. He only let loose starting in Sailor Moon Super and there are only a few episodes that bear his signature. In particular Episode 117 is basically proto-Utena and Episode 103 has a very Ikuhara-esque gag.

In Sailor Moon SuperS, Ikuhara was forced to tone down so there isn't much specialness there. Still, we did get him stealing from Shinbo in Episode 159:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

So let me try to break down what you are saying here. Essentially your goal as stated is that your sole intention is to, through your own personal experiences, try to provide others with the best possible route to enjoy something/someone that you value greatly.

My intentions, such as they are, are nothing so grand. I'm just here to point out the things that interest me and maybe make the odd clarification. Otherwise, I'd be participating a lot more in this thread.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Again though I can't help but feel that allowing people to work through the show on their own without supplementary material should achieve the same result in the long run if your faith in Ikuhara is that strong and not misplaced. The benefit of your experiences with Ikuhara is probably best placed in the purely explanatory and informative (i.e "here's what I think he intended with x based on my experiences with y") as opposed to how people should approach the show in terms of critique.

That's pretty much what most of us are doing: "That's classic Ikuhara misdirection", "That gag is so Ikuhara", "It's so like Ikuhara to love Oniisama e", "Water=death" and so on. There isn't a whole lot of interpretation involved, because everyone is as much in the dark. About the most that can be offered is the basic stuff like how Ikuhara isn't shy about homosexuality or incest and the like.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by KRegnard

You are misrepresenting Kaioshin's argument, he never said that people watching MPD necessarily have watched Utena. What I think he means is that people who have not watched Utena should not be criticised, or frowned down upon for criticising MPD. From what I've seen in this thread, it's mostly Ikuhara and Utena worship. Well yeah, Utena might've been great, but this doesn't mean that Ikuhara or Utena should be the only perspective to view MPD.

I only brought Utena into the fray because the most widespread complaint that I encountered so far in this thread is about the excessive length of Ringo's arc. If you watched Utena, you would know that Ikuhara tends to do long story arcs. For instance in RGU there were 4 story arcs:
Ep. 1-13 Student Council arc
Ep. 14-23 Black Rose arc
Ep. 24-33 Akio Ohtori's arc
Ep. 34-39 End of the World arc

If Ringo's story is concluded in the next episode then the length of Ringo's arc will be about 1/3rd of the series, compatible with Utena's Student Council arc.
What irks me is that people judge the story before it's over. Who knows if Ringo is a central figure in MPD's story or just a secondary character that is going to be discarded after her arc? It's too early to tell.