Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

She took all their despair unto herself. That despair had to be manifested eventually. It wasn't just going to disappear.

I think his point was that, unlike all other Witches who were reverted to a state of non-existence, Witch!Madoka got to fully manifest and then be destroyed. Visually speaking, Witch!Madoka's birth wasn't prevented (a la Madoka's wish), but rather it was destroyed after being born normally. Of course it was almost certainly just a visual thing and shouldn't be indicative of anything in particular, but I think that's what he meant.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

The meaning of her sacrifice, the message that brings and the protection it gives. The concept of that.....That is the truly divine thing about her.

Well, the only one who really knows the meaning of her sacrifice is Homura, and that's already something that shouldn't have happened.

Regardless, I don't think it's ok to think of what Madoka did as divine. That kinda cheapens the human aspect of it, IMO. As Ki Longfellow would say it, Madoka is "nothing so whimsical and so impractical as a god, but a great heart standing on the edge of the world teaching us all to soar by teaching himself".

Of course, to each its own.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I think his point was that, unlike all other Witches who were reverted to a state of non-existence, Witch!Madoka got to fully manifest and then be destroyed. Visually speaking, Witch!Madoka's birth wasn't prevented (a la Madoka's wish), but rather it was destroyed after being born normally. Of course it was almost certainly just a visual thing and shouldn't be indicative of anything in particular, but I think that's what he meant.

No..I mean the others did not manifest because she cleansed their soul gems and saw their spirits off. Now the taint she cleansed off was gathered and it won't just go away. This was released as the super Kriemhild Gretchen

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

No..I mean the others did not manifest because she cleansed their soul gems and saw their spirits off. Now the taint she cleansed off was gathered and it won't just go away. This was released as the super Kriemhild Gretchen

I know exactly what you meant. But Madoka isn't a special case, and the point being made was that it's strange that her Witch got a chance to manifest when no other Witch did anymore. Of course the despair she gathered wouldn't just fade away, but at the same time, her wish should have eliminated her before she turned into a Witch.

Like I said, however, it's likely to just be a visual thing, rather than being indicative of anything like he was suggesting.

[Snork]

Once again, it's likely because a paradox was developing. Other witches were born before they would manifest, and the respective magical girls disappeared - but that's the retconned PAST Shaft shows us. The witch born from Madoka's Soul Gem is observable in the present, and as was discussed earlier, it may be some kind of inertia where Ultimate Gretchen can't be simply retconned while watched by the audience and Homura - what we see is Madoka falling under the weight of the grief she absorbed. And from the same perspective, a certain, if brief, while passes before the gambit unfolds and the witch is erased by Madoka projected into this future moment ("future" in relation to the moment she contracted). That's the essense of Madoka's sacrifice - she erases her physical existence with HER OWN HANDS, just as she wished (and probably just as she planned to do, since she knows how the system works so she couldn't but understand how a mere attempt to set things right would have ended). Fancy dress and wings are nice visuals to emphasize the metaphor, but basically what we see is Madoka's current existence already - her own self that she sent to numerous dates and timelines. She no longer has a physical body, but her spiritual essense stretches out infinitely into the future until there will be no more magical girls left (and honestly, Incubators don't seem to plan the end of the mission anytime soon). She's locked out of time, and nearly every trace of her existestence is erased, since she's the major part of the resulting paradox.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Snork

Once again, it's likely because a paradox was developing. Other witches were born before they would manifest, and the respective magical girls disappeared - but that's the retconned PAST Shaft shows us. The witch born from Madoka's Soul Gem is observable in the present.

You're getting it wrong, I think. Even though Shaft showed Madoka's wish acting only on the magical girls from the past, Madoka went to the present and future too. Remember she said "I've already saw all the possible futures" or something like that.

That's the real essence of the paradox IMO: Madoka's wish acts from outside of time (as stated by QB), and so by the moment she herself became a witch, it has already been completely fulfilled. In fact, she's already collected even the witches of Mami and Homura. That's why she knows she will meet Homura again. Because from her perspective (a perspective outside of time) she already did, even thought from Homura's POV, that hasn't happened yet (see? total paradox).

In the earth, where time exist, Madoka is still everywhere collecting witches. But outside of time, where Madoka is, she has already collected all the witches, including her own witch, which, IMO, was the very last one of the universe.

That's my take at least.

[Snork]

^ A probable one at that.

[Guernsey]

The Godoka thing annoys almost half as much as the Haruhi God thing.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

The Godoka thing annoys almost half as much as the Haruhi God thing.

I don't see why. She isn't even a "god" as she lacks most of the powers I guess. Even minor Greek gods could appear before humans.

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

The Godoka thing annoys almost half as much as the Haruhi God thing.

She isn't so much of a God, but her sacrifice and the hope she brought to the Puella Magi reminded people of a certain person who did something similar, which is why a lot of people, myself included, like to refer her as a God.

[Airrider]

Madoka transcends time, permeates herself through time, has altered time.

...Madoka IS time?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Airrider

...Madoka IS time?

It's the opposite. Time now has nothing to do with her anymore. For her time doesn't exist.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I know exactly what you meant. But Madoka isn't a special case, and the point being made was that it's strange that her Witch got a chance to manifest when no other Witch did anymore. Of course the despair she gathered wouldn't just fade away, but at the same time, her wish should have eliminated her before she turned into a Witch.

Like I said, however, it's likely to just be a visual thing, rather than being indicative of anything like he was suggesting.

But the wish does it for the others by taking their taint unto Madoka. That's why the other Witches never manifested. Because the Witch essence was with Madoka so to speak... When it gets to the end of the line, Madoka can't give the taint to anyone else.

[Akashin]

Fair enough; it's such a grey area that I won't dispute that. Nonetheless, it begs the question of how, then, she was able to destroy her own Witch; if the grief she'd take away to stop her own Witch had nowhere to go, where would it go?

[Airrider]

Perhaps the energy dissipated without being gathered by Kyuubey or any other Incubator? The emotional energy has to go SOMEWHERE, yeah, but who said anything about the energy going anywhere specific? Kyuubey and co. (est. 1962 BC) just want to stave off the heat death of the universe with energy; any energy. Madoka dumping energy into empty space when her Witch goes ka-flooey would suffice.

[hilly]

Is it that when Madoka collecting the negative energy from all the timeline from the past until the future,many other possible timeline also created?
Like,if she collecting before a MG A become Witch A,then how about MG B that had defeated Witch A?Will the history of MG B retained and split into other time line?

It is mentioned that Madoka had become being of higher dimension(contraction of her wish:witch Madoka destroyed by MG Madoka),thus outside of time already,so Madoka is being a God of creating each world of happiness to each MG that almost become witch by interfering all the timeline?
Then,this had overload the universe? and a new rule and a only one history had been applied to this world?Is this speculation reasonable?

[Snork]

I don't see why. She isn't even a "god" as she lacks most of the powers I guess. Even minor Greek gods could appear before humans.

Wow, last thing I expected is Tatsuya having something in common with Ancient Greeks.
Personally, I like to refer to Madoka as a valkyrie of sorts, but I nonetheless view her as a... Puella Magi. Leading her eternal struggle against witches by most efficient (yet hardly self-beneficial) methods. She's a titular Puella Magi, yet we didn't see her actually contracting until the end (previous timelines don't QUITE count, although the Madoka we saw there is very significant), which makes sense that she should be a special one. Not a god perhaps, but somewhere along the lines of "Ultimate Puella Magi" for sure. And she gives hope and works miracles for despaired magical girls - just what she believes magical girls like herself are meant to do.

[mols]

I agree with you. I just wanted to mention that she isn't quite a "god" even if QB mentions that. It is as you say, a Puella maga suffering the consequences of her wish. Sure, other PM would enjoy their wish, but in her case it is not quite so enjoyable. But it is what she felt was necessary. I can't say it is what she felt was "right" for I am sure she would have preferred that no one had to make a pact to begin with.
I still need to read Oriko, so I don't know if more is mentioned about witches, QB etc. But with what Madoka knew, her wish made things the way she thought things were, just as you said.

But it must be hard for her to know that she can't actually help PM from dying or disappearing. She can only stop witches to be born. And she has to keep doing it for all eternity.
Anyone would become insane. Maybe she will, she is still "human", right?

[Snork]

Anyone would become insane. Maybe she will, she is still "human", right?

I sincerely hope Urobuchi will never reach THAT level of trolling...

[mols]

Originally Posted by Snork

I sincerely hope Urobuchi will never reach THAT level of trolling...

hahaha, maybe we shouldn't be asking for a sequel and just be glad that the ending was ok.