Nanoha Manga Discussion

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

About 3 chapters ago.

Winterbraid didn't like ViVid because there wasn't any yuri in it and the fights were about to start and Winterbraid basically said "F**k it, I don't like this anymore."

Whining about a manga that have the most yuri pandering of the two? That's fucking rich. How do I spell it, "i.r.o.n.y."?

[00-Raiser]

I think it speaks about the actual amount of yuri content when a big yuri fan doesn't think there's any in it

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

it's Nanoha being more mecha at the expense of losing most of the magical girl elements in recent seasons (ViVid aside)... it's shifting from something pretty unique and interesting into a generic sci-fi action series. If I wanted generic sci-fi action, I'd watch Sky Girls or Railgun; I watch Nanoha because I love watching magical girls blow shit up. And they're not really magical girls anymore.

Honestly, I really feel you're jumping the gun here, and perhaps looking at earlier seasons with some rose-colored glasses. The series has always been: magical girls kicking but *with* magical technology. That's no different than what is happening in Force. And even *if* we say that Force is somehow different... that's still one part of one story that isn't done yet, vs. 3 anime seasons, several manga, and several sound stages that has what you like.

And I don't know what's so generic about Nanoha, because I actually find it pretty unique among anime. Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura didn't blow up nearly as much (and Sailor Moon was fairly dark, with half the senshi outright dying at the end of the first season!)

Kaijo's got a point in that we can't accurately judge the series until it's done, but you have to admit that there's been a definite slide into darker and edgier territory since the start of the franchise and it's hitting a point some of us are uncomfortable with. I'd much rather see this series turn into a formulaic monster-of-the-week Sailor Moon ripoff than see it turn into Magical Girl Victory Gundam.

As I said, Sailor Moon was fairly dark at times, with people outright dying, so I don't really understand why you'd want that. It does sound like you want a more traditional magical girl show, and if so, then Nanoha might not be for you. Strike Witches is currently airing season 2, so you might want to check that out.

But I don't really understand the "dark" comments, because Force is no darker than previous seasons or Sailor Moon (as I said above, SM had deaths).

In Force - deaths of civilians and nuns, Signum badly beat up.

Sound Stages - Linith. That is all.

S1 - Fate whipped and abused by Precia. Nanoha getting beat down. Alicia's dead body on display.

A's - Nanoha getting horribly beat down and injured, ending up in a hospital bed (sound familiar?). Hayate being consumed by the book, the Wolkenritter, her family killed right before her eyes. Alicia's death more pronounced as Fate gets her nose shoved in it. Reinforce dying in front of Hayate's eyes.

StrikerS - Deaths of: Quint, Zest, Regius, Due. Torture of Vivio. Deaths of civilians and bureau personnel implied.

SSX - Murders by mariage of civilians, in particular a guy who commits suicide right in front of Subaru.

Although I'll grant that Vivid hasn't really had any dark moments, so I suppose you can enjoy that. But saying there hasn't been dark elements before, is pretty disingenuous, as there has been death and darkness all along. The mages have used technology to convert their magic into destructive power all along.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

WE DON'T CARE if it's good storytelling, we don't want our characters in serious danger of permanent death! Get that through your head! There are better ways to generate tension and drama without threatening to kill off our beloved cast members, non-action shows do it all the time! For christ's sake, the first season built an entire plot out of that kind of drama, unless you seriously thought there was a possibility of Fate or Nanoha dying after they spent the whole series building up their relationship (such as it was).

I dunno, I thought Nanoha was in danger since Fate was so much stronger. But you're really talking plot armor, which is present in Force as well. If Tsuzuki didn't kill Vita or Signum, then there is little doubt he's actually going to kill any of the protagonists.

But I can understand your desire to not have your characters in serious danger, even if I don't agree. The hero was never really in serious danger in Eragon(hero too smart, goes through every problem with ease). The heroes were never really in serious danger in Twilight (Alice can see the future, so they can take countermeasures against the villain easily enough). It's not something I like, but everyone is different, so I can respect that.

And you still have Vivid, which doesn't put our heroes in any risk of death.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

About 3 chapters ago.

Winterbraid didn't like ViVid because there wasn't any yuri in it and the fights were about to start and Winterbraid basically said "F**k it, I don't like this anymore."

Well, what was he expecting?! It's Nanoha! The yuri gets implied, not outright stated, because it is easier to mess with the fandom's heads that way!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I think it speaks about the actual amount of yuri content when a big yuri fan doesn't think there's any in it

I guess they are not happy with implicit yuri and rubbing it on other shippers's face anymore.

[Comartemis]

And I don't know what's so generic about Nanoha, because I actually find it pretty unique among anime. Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura didn't blow up nearly as much (and Sailor Moon was fairly dark, with half the senshi outright dying at the end of the first season!)

And then they all came back. Did you miss that part?

Sailor Moon wasn't really dark at all until the S season rolled around and introduced the explicitly apocalyptic overtones as opposed to the alien invaders of the previous seasons. It was a subtle but noticeable change, and then they added in the Outer Senshi to mix things up so it wasn't just good guys vs bad guys again. Of the whole series, S is most like Nanoha A's, which is probably why I like it better than the rest of the franchise.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It could be because in fantasy, magic is generally treated as a force that should be treated with the most respect by magii, in a fuck-with-me-and-you-will-pay-the-price way, the protagonist of Earthsea learned it the hard way (also Earthsea is an example that fantasy races a fantasy story does not make).

In Force, it seems to have been pushed to the status of minovsky-esque or GN-esque particles, instead of an uncaring force (no pun intended) that can shift the very substance of reality and demand respect and devotion from its users.

That's an interesting reason, but I don't think my reason is that deep . I wish I could ask my subconsciousness about it...

Originally Posted by Nya~n

You know... they could even be doing it purpose just to see us here flip. Now that's scary.

Congratulations then, you b*stards, you're deliberately butchered engrish was a success. While I'm at it, it's deeply insulting that they name a fluffy bunny-like device "Keris". That thing looks nothing like a weapon, let alone a blade

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

"..... This fight proves how powerful the new enemies are, right?"

"Yep."

"Well, I'm screwed."

I laughed so hard trying to imagine Signum taking one for the team . It's like the beginning of the Trojan War, where none of the Greeks dare to jump from their ships because it's prophesied that the first to land will be the first to die, until eventually someone traded his life for glory. Pity I forgot his name

Originally Posted by prescience

Queen bitch of the universe?
*FLEES*

They may share the same smugness, but Cypha is nowhere as near as Infested Kerrigan. When she said that line, Kerrigan was already the victor, with her army being the most powerful of the sector and all her enemies at the brink of destruction. She can gloat all she wants and nobody could stop her. Cypha, and Huckebein as a whole, on the other hand doesn't have that kind of power; they may be a serious threat, but the fact that they're the one on the run means they still have disadvantages, some of which I presume would eventually be exploited by the TSAB.

And yes, this is another Starcraft reference. I just want to point it out before poor Kovares breaks down in tears...

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I think it speaks about the actual amount of yuri content when a big yuri fan doesn't think there's any in it

You know, this one is a big mystery for me. I thought Yuri fans could spot "yuri moments" even when there's supposed to be none of it? You know, the whole "OMG they look at each other they must be in love" kinda thing?

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

And then they all came back. Did you miss that part?

Sailor Moon wasn't really dark at all until the S season rolled around and introduced the explicitly apocalyptic overtones as opposed to the alien invaders of the previous seasons. It was a subtle but noticeable change, and then they added in the Outer Senshi to mix things up so it wasn't just good guys vs bad guys again. Of the whole series, S is most like Nanoha A's, which is probably why I like it better than the rest of the franchise.

... what?

Sailor moon began with a battle against the 'queen' who previously killed everyone in their previous lives (a.k.a she won), and already did a apocalypse.

Every Sailor Moon season had an apocalypse in progres.

That's an interesting reason, but I don't think my reason is that deep . I wish I could ask my subconsciousness about it...

There are lots of reasons.

The most 'flagrant' is that in 'real world' where there is magic, there is also a masquerade where no one is allowed to talk about magic. Magic itself is a secret guarded by usual extreme punitive measures. This give the impression that 'magic' itself is extremely, well, mystical.

Also, in MGLN the more 'mystical' parts of magic are not presented with reverance, thoguh they sometimes are presented as rare (Caro, Carim, Acous, Familiars, Golems...).

Basically, it's a 'presentation' thing. In Force, we have an enemy that talking about 'the disease that will destroy the world', and the disease in question seems to also be deadly to magic. Were it presented slightly differently, everyone here would be talking about the Death Of Magic, but the way it's shown just puts the 'highlight' on different things.

Basically, other 'SHINY' things make us look at other things (the same way people talk about Mecha this Mecha that when their upgrades and situation are in fact very old pure Fantasy Tropes).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

And then they all came back. Did you miss that part?

But you didn't know that at the time. In other words, it became really dark, but had a happy ending. Force may seem dark to you, but it can still have a happy ending.

I can understand the concerns, but I really think we should wait and see what happens before we pass judgment. I may not like the lack of plot in Vivid, but it's not over yet. Perhaps it won't go anywhere. Perhaps it will. I'll wait and see.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

You know, this one is a big mystery for me. I thought Yuri fans could spot "yuri moments" even when there's supposed to be none of it? You know, the whole "OMG they look at each other they must be in love" kinda thing?

Yeah, yuri goggles are supposedly powerful things, but... I actually went into Nanoha with yuri goggles on, but by the end of it I was all "... Wait, where was the yuri?"

THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!!!

Of course I've said this before but I'm okay with seeing Vivio and Einhart's friendship as a budding romance

[Comartemis]

Sailor moon began with a battle against the 'queen' who previously killed everyone in their previous lives (a.k.a she won), and already did a apocalypse.

Every Sailor Moon season had an apocalypse in progres.

Nope. Beryl, Ail and Ann, and the Black Moon Clan all had "take over the world" as their objective. Beryl's apocalypse only happened in the backstory and she didn't win because Serenity sealed her away. It was a really Pyrrhic victory, yeah, but it was a victory for the Moon Kingdom.

S on the other hand introduces an enemy whose only objective is TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF EVERYTHING, and the Messiah of Silence is rather obviously the local equivalent of the Anti-Christ the way she's described.

I can understand the concerns, but I really think we should wait and see what happens before we pass judgment

You must've missed the post where I said you had a point about that a few pages back or you wouldn't be repeating it. I'm labeling Force discontinuity for the time being but I haven't stopped reading it yet, so we'll see if I still don't like it at the end. As I've stated several times, my biggest worry isn't Force itself but that future seasons will follow the trend and be even darker than Force is.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Of course I've said this before but I'm okay with seeing Vivio and Einhart's friendship as a budding romance

I just wish that Ein have more to her than looking :-( and blush.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Nope. Beryl, Ail and Ann, and the Black Moon Clan all had "take over the world" as their objective. Beryl's apocalypse only happened in the backstory and she didn't win because Serenity sealed her away. It was a really Pyrrhic victory, yeah, but it was a victory for the Moon Kingdom.

It's been awhile since I've even thought about Sailor Moon, but didn't two of those three have apocalyptic cosmic horrors acting as the driving force behind their plots? Wiseman/Death Phantom, at least, made it pretty clear he wanted to end all life.



Really, Force isn't that much darker than previous seasons. Nanoha has always had child abuse, world-eating death books, and growing child soldiers in vats behind the cute fluffiness. It's always gone to pretty bleack places and managed to pull a happy ending out of it, and there's no reason to believe Force won't do that same.

Plus, as a Bleach fan, it takes significantly more than a chest-slice and impalement to make me believe a character is dead. I read series where characters have apparently survived being sliced in half at the waist.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Nope. Beryl, Ail and Ann, and the Black Moon Clan all had "take over the world" as their objective. Beryl's apocalypse only happened in the backstory and she didn't win because Serenity sealed her away. It was a really Pyrrhic victory, yeah, but it was a victory for the Moon Kingdom.

Ah ok, you don't know sailor moon.

Beryl, from the moment she used/was used by metallia, couldn't do anything but TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

The 'black moon clan' were brainwashed by someone trying to to TOTAL DESTRUCTION too.

S on the other hand introduces an enemy whose only objective is TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF EVERYTHING,

as did the two before.

and the Messiah of Silence is rather obviously the local equivalent of the Anti-Christ the way she's described.

if you are talking about Saturn, she was more of a 'reboot' or 'total seal' way (who cares about a single world, beryl/metallia and wisman would have done worse).

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Oh, Cypha is definitely sort of a bitch, no doubt about it. But in terms of her fight with Signum, she really did nothing wrong. It was a fair fight (maybe slightly unfair if you count Agito) that in the end came down to how powerful they both were. It was just Signum's luck that of the two, she needed to be nerfed to prove a point.

I assume you meant "worfed". ^^;

Also, I belong to the camp that considers Cypha unfair. For the same reason that I would consider anyone unfair who uses a lightsaber against a sword-wielding opponent (or even two of them). It didn't come down to who was more powerful or a better fighter, but who was given better equipment by the author before they even knew of each other's existence (I don't even think it's Cypha's achievement that she owns a Divider, so I can't accept that as a measure of her power). Which, indeed, leads up to Worf Effect.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Moczo

It's been awhile since I've even thought about Sailor Moon, but didn't two of those three have apocalyptic cosmic horrors acting as the driving force behind their plots? Wiseman/Death Phantom, at least, made it pretty clear he wanted to end all life.

He was also manipulating the Black Moon Clan to get what he wanted. The BMC just wanted to destroy Crystal Tokyo so they could live on Earth again after Serenity exiled their ancestors; the main conflict was against "alien invaders", DP just kinda hung out in the background until the last few episodes, and as soon as he became the main villain everything serioused the fuck up. Metallia... actually I don't think Metallia ever even spoke much to begin with, and she seemed to be more a force of corruption than of destruction, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Ah ok, you don't know sailor moon.

On the contrary, I know Sailor Moon better than I know just about any other series, but it's been years since I watched the first two seasons.

if you are talking about Saturn, she was more of a 'reboot' or 'total seal' way (who cares about a single world, beryl/metallia and wisman would have done worse).

Saturn wasn't the Messiah of Silence, Mistress Nine was.

*EDIT*
Anyways, this is the Nanoha Manga thread, not the Sailor Moon thread. If you wanna continue the discussion, take it over to Fukufics.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

I assume you meant "worfed". ^^;

Also, I belong to the camp that considers Cypha unfair. For the same reason that I would consider anyone unfair who uses a lightsaber against a sword-wielding opponent (or even two of them). It didn't come down to who was more powerful or a better fighter, but who was given better equipment by the author before they even knew of each other's existence (I don't even think it's Cypha's achievement that she owns a Divider, so I can't accept that as a measure of her power). Which, indeed, leads up to Worf Effect.

As we've covered before, 'worfed' isn't the right word to use.

Again, this feels like thinly disguised fanboyism. No matter what the difference in equipment, if Signum was really so great it wouldn't have mattered. She just wasn't skilled enough to handle the situation.

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah if people feel the need to bring up Worfism into this, I should define it properly:

Worfism is when a reportedly strong character repeatedly gets his or her ass handed them by the enemy of the week to show off how threatening they are. It has to have it happening over and over again.

One true loss does not mean Signum has been worfed. She wins some, she loses some. That seems fairly even to me.

So I have to agree with Raiser here, this just sounds like blatant fanboyism.

[Kaijo]

Hell, if we want to talk dark, there's the whole Wolkenritter back story where they were forced to kill over and over again for hundreds of years. Lots of death there, and some of the soundstages even kinda address this. Plus, since the implication is that not all of their previous masters were nice guys, and they were women with nice bodies and willing slaves, it's not hard to figure out what went on.

So, we have child abuse, rape, and mass death. That's darker than anything in Force so far.

As for Signum, it wasn't a matter of skill. Cypha was just plain immune to Signum's offensive style once she reacted, so there really was no other way it could have gone. The author needed to show us exactly what kind of threat these villains were.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

As we've covered before, 'worfed' isn't the right word to use.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Yeah if people feel the need to bring up Worfism into this, I should define it properly:

Worfism is when a reportedly strong character repeatedly gets his or her ass handed them by the enemy of the week to show off how threatening they are. It has to have it happening over and over again.

Ah, sorry, then. I probably missed the rare point of agreement in this thread. ^^; But still, "nerfed" wasn't the right term in the context, either, for AFAIK it means rendering something more harmless, rather than completely removing a powerful character from picture...

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Again, this feels like thinly disguised fanboyism. No matter what the difference in equipment, if Signum was really so great it wouldn't have mattered. She just wasn't skilled enough to handle the situation.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

One true loss does not mean Signum has been worfed. She wins some, she loses some. That seems fairly even to me.

So I have to agree with Raiser here, this just sounds like blatant fanboyism.

Fine, fine, I am a fanboy, thought that is hardly any news. I also don't question the fact that Signum lost because she wasn't prepared for the fight, and now that we've clarified the definition of Worf Effect, I will also not claim that she has been worfed. I may be a fanboy, but it's not the reason why Signum lost, but the reason why Cypha won that ticks me off.

Signum lost because she wasn't prepared for a inherently unbalanced combat situation that Cypha forced upon her. Since it was hardly Signum's fault that her AEC equipment wasn't ready, and since it was hardly Cypha's achievement that her Divider was with her all along, overwhelming your opponent with superior equipment is a dishonorable behavior, which is what I refer to when I say "unfair". I would never call Zest's victory unfair, for example (if anything, it would be Signum who was unfair to a man dying of sickness). And I do not see how Signum's winning streak statistic has anything to do with it. ^^