2016-06-23, 11:36 | Link #101 | |
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Plus mass genocide of the earthlings (as the Windermerians refer to them). Also I agree with Kuromitsu in that I'm totally not okay with Var but I'm not quick to judgement until all the facts and reasonings have been laid down by the Delta creators. Last edited by Mistyclear; 2016-06-23 at 12:00. |
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2016-06-23, 11:44 | Link #102 |
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I wonder about Roid. Obviously he's dedicated to the cause but his cause is slightly(?) different from that of Gramia or Keith. He's also the one who is dedicated to the whole Glorious Protoculture Heritage thing, and who wants a "new wind" to blow across the galaxy. Is he a well-intentioned (for a certain measure of "well-intentioned") idealist making painful decisions for his eventual goal? Or is there more to him?
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2016-06-23, 11:48 | Link #103 | |||
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Maybe Windermere is simply in the wrong. Maybe they're not meant to be particularly sympathetic. Macross has had antagonists that weren't particularly sympathetic, in my view. The impression I get from you and other Windermere defenders is that you have this intense need for Delta's antagonists to be sympathetic, as though the show's quality would drop tremendously if they're not sympathetic. A show's antagonists don't necessarily need to be sympathetic in order for that show to be a good show. Quote:
And in this respect, Windermere characters are not being treated any more harshly than any other character is. For example, Mirage has taken a fair degree of criticism for not having done a whole lot so far, and for not having many impressive moments so far. There's hope that she'll get better and get a big scene later on, but until/unless she does, viewer impressions of her will be based on what she's already shown. And if Mirage gets better later on, then maybe I'll adjust my take on her then. But keep in mind that there really is such a thing as "too little, too late". Initial impressions of characters will tend to firm over time if viewers see little reason to change from their initial impression. Quote:
Var might not have yet been used as a WMD in this show, but it certainly has the same destructive potential as many WMDs. In any event, I don't see the big deal in Var being considered a WMD, since I get the impression we all agree that the weapon that caused Windermere's scar is also a WMD. So it's not like we're being one-sided in which weapons we call "WMDs".
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2016-06-23, 12:04 | Link #104 | |||
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You know what, I don't feel like arguing the point. It doesn't matter. Let's say ep1 was their very first weapon test, and that all the other Var incidents, for which Walkure was founded, were some kind of unfortunate coincidence. It doesn't change a thing.
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See, it's like this: they can, and have, used the Var to slaughter people wholesale. Maybe not on a WMD scale, but they have killed a lot of people, including a lot of civilians. Mostly to show they could, and would. They have used the ruins (and Heinz) to mindrape many planets at the same time. That's where my "billions" comes in. Put the two together, and you get what we've seen in the last few episodes: they use the threat of the Var, the threat to use the conquered planet's own protectors against its population, to hold those planets beneath their heels. To argue that the ruins aren't part of a WMD is like saying H-bombs aren't WMDs because they've never been used to kill a lot of people. Now, I don't automatically object to WMDs, but you can't deny that the Ragnan ruins are part of a weapon system pointed not just at Ragna, but at their whole corner of space, and that that weapon can kill them all with relative ease. Getting rid of it is therefore the logical move. Quote:
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2016-06-23, 12:26 | Link #105 |
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That is a good, and darkly amusing, point. It's fun to imagine that Macross Delta is a popular TV show on Star Trek Earth, created to reinforce the Prime Directive. I don't know if I've ever seen a TV show that justifies Star Trek's Prime Directive to the degree that Delta does.
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2016-06-23, 12:42 | Link #106 | |
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The Prime Directive is the ultimate Libertarian Ideal for better or worse; if you can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps, we will let you die in a ditch. The result is that there are as many planets saved by it as are died by it. The only positive is that it gives the Federation the moral justification to not help people. I guess it could be worse; the Bird Humans of Macross Zero went one step further, and decided that if Earthlings obtained Space Travel while still waging war then they are better off exterminated. That's rather harsh, because I don't think ANY sentient races in Macross had managed to eradicate warfare. Maybe the Bird Human aliens just hate war that much.
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2016-06-23, 12:52 | Link #107 | |
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The point of the Prime Directive isn't a Libertarian Ideal. The point is that a sentient species at a certain technological level may well get overwhelmed by the cultural/technological shock of meeting a much more highly advanced alien race (and making use of their tech). That it could upset their natural development/evolution, or potentially pose a risk to other alien races. An analogy that could be used is that it's like handing a highly complex and potentially lethal piece of equipment to a young kid, who has no knowledge of how or why it works. There's clearly a big risk being taken here. Star Trek's Prime Directive essentially argues that such risks just aren't worth it. Perhaps NUNs should have made the same decision when it comes to Windermere.
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2016-06-23, 13:01 | Link #108 | ||
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That being said, the creators have noted that finding out that their short life span is not the norm caused an existential crisis among the Windermereans. Put that together with some actually legitimate grievances against outsiders, and you have a fertile breeding ground for toxic ideologies like "we are the true heirs to the protoculture." (It probably doesn't help that those who make that claim can point to Sigur Valens to back it up.) Quote:
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2016-06-23, 13:14 | Link #109 | |
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Spoiler for Very cool comics!:
You're free to feel however you do about Windermere, Darth. But the same goes for the rest of us.
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2016-06-23, 13:21 | Link #110 | |
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Earth in Star Trek was an edge case; remember that Earth was just about to become a part of the statistic, and only a single man's research saved humanity from dying out. Humanity SHOULD have gone extinct; we were not able to work together and society was collapsing. But one mad scientist ended up creating the warp drive on his own, and then the Vulcans saved humanity with their technology after that. How many other Earths just like our own, in our position, perhaps even more deserving of help, disappeared into the dust? To assume that all the hundreds of races were unworthy of existing, is rather questionable since Star Trek Earth barely passed and really had no right to judge others. Earth in Star Trek was saved by the action of one man, humanity itself had flunked its test. In contrast, we have the Tenchi Muyo universe; in that world, Earth is actually a nature reserve. The human race was a former colony of the great Jurai Empire, and the planet had been politically shielded from alien invasions because Jurai protected us. But THEIR version of the Prime Directive is that they deliberately kept 90% of the human population in the dark about the fact that there is a massive city on the dark side of the moon, that the telephone system is hooked up to the galactic network and has its own area code, and that the 10% who know about the aliens are basically the ones running the planet. The fact that the 10% who know about aliens have a lifespan more than 10 times that of the ignorant 90%, makes it seem like an abuse. In Tenchi Muyo Earth is left as a primitive society pure because it is a Reservation, a place that is left untouched because it is nice and quaint. With a lack of decent medicines or FTL travel or supersoldier serum or anything else, that the rest of the galaxy took for granted. Yes, uplifting a primitive race has risks. But I would argue that it is morally irresponsible to assume a primitive race is guilty until proven innocent. A primitive race isn't doing anything wrong for being primitive, and it is rude to assume they were less worthy of having access to technology that could improve their lives.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2016-06-23 at 13:32. |
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2016-06-23, 13:36 | Link #111 | |
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With questions of this nature, of course I do. It would be ridiculously imprudent to ignore such issues.
In any event, it's not about any Libertarian Ideal. It's about the legitimate concerns of what unpredictable effects may arise from giving a people technology hundreds or even thousands of years more advanced than its own. The desire to help the less technologically advanced is admirable, but there's also good reason to be very cautious about such things. I can see the rationale for making exceptions with certain species that appear benevolent and peaceful, but the Prime Directive is the sort of rule that when you start making exceptions, the rule is likely to become completely unraveled. And then you may well end up with a Windermere on your hands... Now, I'm not firmly in favor of the Prime Directive, as I do get where you're coming from here. But I definitely see a good argument for the Prime Directive. I like the simplicity and consistency of it, and I like much of the rationale behind it. It errs on the side of caution, which maybe is the right way to go once you reach a certain level of technological advancement. I don't doubt I've been biased somewhat by reading/watching so many sci-fi nightmare scenarios play out in fiction (a good recent example being The Avengers: Age of Ultron movie). Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2016-06-23 at 13:49. |
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2016-06-23, 14:09 | Link #113 | |
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Do you have a moral obligation to help everyone unconditionally? No. But just because you don't have to help everyone, is not a reason to stop other people from helping if they wished. There is no law stating that you are forbidden to give a starving man food, or a thirsty man water. No one is being forced to help others here, it is the ban of helping at all until the helpless is worthy of being rescued that I question. Imagine if a poor person could only receive charitable aid and eat in soup kitchens if he has a high school level education? That's the bizarre argument of the Prime Directive. The idea that there is some sort of minimum standard in order to earn help, and that if you don't get to that standard you don't deserve to live.
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2016-06-23, 14:51 | Link #114 | |
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I like the Dr Doom connection. There's a guy who felt disrespected, not necessarily for good reasons, and reacted rather violently. |
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2016-06-23, 15:45 | Link #115 | |
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The counter to it are sound forces like Walküre. For me it's just like pumping extra adrenaline into someone with the flaw that they go enrage when not played with the correct music.
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2016-06-23, 15:51 | Link #116 | |
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2016-06-23, 19:25 | Link #117 | ||
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While we are discussion of the merits and demerits of uplifts in Macross lets get some context first. The Zentradi were the first alien uplift Terrans did. While the majority got satisfied with civilian life some did not adjust well like Quamzin's lot. Zentradi malcontent rebels has been a problem ever since. But there is an added dimension to that. Much like Zentradi on Trad city adopting Kaifun's anti-military stance some Zentradi rebels took in Anti-UN ideology . This can be seen on groups like Black Rainbow in Macross VF-X2.
The Anti-UN has been mentioned twice in Shoji Kawamori's Forbes interviews. The first one is the Kingdom of Wind isn't the Anti-UN but has similar ideals. The second one is that people related to Ant-UN developers of the Sv-51 developed Windermere's Variable Fighters. That they've hidden themselves at the edges of the galaxy. According to Seto Kaiba at MW this is not the first time as the Variable Glaug and Feios had Anti-UN help for Zentradi rebels. The whole Unequal Treaty mentioned could be a hold over from the Anti-UN. We know that Lt. Uroh spoke at least some Russian suggesting some emigrants were Russian. Some of the Anti-UN were of Russian nationality and some shelters on Russia did survive the bombardment. So much like Zentradi malcontents Gramia and the rest appropriated the Anti-UN ideology. http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...lossary18a.php Quote:
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Roid mentions they can force the NUN to recognize them as true heirs of the Protoculture and treat them as equals. This is pretty much conflict over the leadership of the galaxy and religious ideology similar to Anti-UN reasons for rebelling. Meaning they do not want the Children of the Protoculture uniting under Terran culture but their own. |
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2016-06-23, 19:30 | Link #118 | |
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(Actually, this whole set up is making me wonder if the WMD used on Windermere seven years ago was used by NUNS, with the intended target being the planet's protoculture ruins. The show is not implying that messing with those ruins is dangerous for nothing.) |
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2016-06-23, 19:44 | Link #119 | |||
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2016-06-23, 20:14 | Link #120 | |
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WRT to the Prime Directive, the approach that is most commonly pilloried is also the approach that is the most bureaucratic, whereas Captains that followed their own counsel such as Kirk or Sisko did whatever actions they felt were necessary, and of which even Captain Picard would in time come to recognize. |
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