[Manga] Naruto Chapter 539 Discussion

[james0246]

^More likely Nagato effortlessly defeats all of his opponents even while lying face down on the ground...

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Read what I said. I said they are not an end all. Just a tool.

Right. Now, read what I said. I said they are a useless tool because they aren't reliable, and gave a simple example why. I didn't suggest that you said they were "end all".

I didn't know there was a personality requirement for a tactician. Good to know.

...Read what I said again . I stated that they were good qualities not requirments.

And you'd be much better off using examples from the Kidomaru fight with Neji. The water prison thing isn't going to impress anyone. Compared to what Sakura did against Sasori, it was nothing.

The fight against Kidomaru speaks for itself, I don't have to say anything about it. As for the water prison, I did not mention it for you to compare to Sakuras fight against Sasori. If you read what I said in proper context, it was to simply cite an example of how Neji is paced and tactful. I mean, that was the main idea of the paragraph, Neji showing tact, which was in response to you saying you wouldn't call him tactful. Sakura vs. Sasori has nothing to do with how tactful Neji's is or isn't.

And that was his only moment in Shippuden. I can also cite Sakura's cunning in tricking Kiba, Lee, and Sai and turning them into the Three Stooges while she got away.

What does his amounts of "moments" in Shippuden have to do with anything? We've seen the female Mizukage fight only once in shippuden as well (among others), does that fact, in any way affect her (or the other's) abilities? Make her any weaker? The answer to both of these of course, is no. And, if Sakura drugging her friends (some of the clumsiest at that), is the only counter you're going to bother to bring up, then I really don't have much more to say about this. You disappointed me, I thought you were going to try and talk about her abilities, and backup your claim with some reasoning; something more convincing than stats from the data-book.

Baseless claim? No, it's my opinion. Just like you have one. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? But I have a hard time believing a student of Tsunade who has faced powerful Akatsuki and survived(both Chiyo and Sakura contributed) would shrivel up into a ball at the sight of...Neji. She is more than capable of fighting him. She is not outclassed as much as you would like to think.

I don't know where you got "shrivel up into a ball at the sight of Neji" from. Read what I said . I only stated that Neji would win based on their abilities and what I've seen from the manga. Its all up there.

[DeDe]

So after seeing the bromance with Itachi and Nagato, all the zombies are accounted for expect the jinchuuriki and that one Cloud guy. Any reason Kishi held back the jinchuuriki? He could unleash them on Naruto and Kirabi. That would make it Tsuande, A, Naruto, and KB vs. 6 jinchuuriki.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

Limited, when not under Kabuto's control, anyway...

The greatest revenge Nagato could have against Madara for being used, should he have full access to his Rinnegan powers while still under free range of control, would be to use Rinne Tensei to revive a bunch of Alliance shinobi, or other specific people...That would really mess up a lot of things...

Though still being under the threat of control, Madara could also use Rinne Tensei to his own pleasure, like he always wanted to...

Madara can't use Nagato, it's Kabuto's pleasure. He needs a wheelchair I guess. It's about time that Naruto defeats Itachi. He never had the chance to... plotwise.

For the first time ever someone managed to control Madara and his actions. When Kabuto fused with Orochimaru, a Kage level top notch villain joined with a Kage guard level medic. They are very very powerful and Kabuto is a twisted genius.
Madara upgraded his power various times after they made contact.

Itachi and Nagato are just referring to Madara. He has both eyes already. He doesn't need NagTo nor Itachi anymore. He posesses their powers already.
Kabuto might need them to counter Madara's new prowess.

Don't believe Madara's words, he's the liar. The big seducer. He's the snake from paradise lying to Adam and Eve. It's true that Orochimaru was the same and maybe Kabuto has seduced Madara, too, but in fact we only know that Madara should be on Sasuke's kill bill... his death note no matter how much he lied to him.

Well, what about Neji? Is he just under a genjutsu or is he betraying the alliance? Is this Neji or a copy right down to his chakra? One Zetsu so to say...

[Bonta Kun]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, what about Neji? Is he just under a genjutsu or is he betraying the alliance? Is this Neji or a copy right down to his chakra? One Zetsu so to say...

I'd go with when he was shown to fall over at the front lines that was probably when he was put under a genjutsu or the result of being put under one.
If not then we can go with clone or Neji was ambushed when on route to the camp but I hope it's the real Neji just turned bad
It should hopefully give me a decent fight in that respect.

[james0246]

So...who here thinks Itachi can now use Izanagi without consequece? With his zombie healing factor, I see no reason why he could not spam Izanagi...at least until he runs out of chakra.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Bonta Kun

I'd go with when he was shown to fall over at the front lines that was probably when he was put under a genjutsu or the result of being put under one.
If not then we can go with clone or Neji was ambushed when on route to the camp but I hope it's the real Neji just turned bad
It should hopefully give me a decent fight in that respect.

It's not really set up for a real fight though. Even if it's the actual Neji, it's not normal Neji but a f**ked up serial killer Neji. He's not going to challenge anyone to a showdown, he's going to say 'hello' then try to put a kunai through their gut. If that fails, would he continue to attack in the middle of the alliance camp? It'd attract attention for sure.

Frankly, I see psycho-Neji using the element of surprise to one-shot Sakura and nearly kill her unless Sakura turns out to be extremely perceptive, lucky or is warned somehow. If Neji gets her some place isolated and Sakura catches on quick enough, maybe they could actually have a real fight.

Originally Posted by james0246

So...who here thinks Itachi can now use Izanagi without consequece? With his zombie healing factor, I see no reason why he could not spam Izanagi...at least until he runs out of chakra.

Yeah, but with the zombies' power being watered down like I they are, it's hard to imagine Itachi becoming more dangerous than he was before.

[Xagzan]

And we don't even know if Itachi ever learned Izanagi.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by james0246

So...who here thinks Itachi can now use Izanagi without consequece? With his zombie healing factor, I see no reason why he could not spam Izanagi...at least until he runs out of chakra.

I thought Izanagi required something from both the Senju AND the Uchiha side .. Madara had Hashirama's DNA from their fight, Danzou had hokage!face on his shoulder, so they could .. original sage obviously had everything and possibly didn't need to sacrifice any eyes for it (.. maybe he did if he only ever used it once on the Juuybi before dying)


Izanagi spam for Itachi would be a little too much maybe .. he's immortal anyway (unless the power of heart, friendship & love sends him on his merry way .. or the alliance uses soul sealing jutsus)

It's about time that Naruto defeats Itachi

Dear merciful heavenly God, please NO .. both of them can do something much better with their time

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I thought Izanagi required something from both the Senju AND the Uchiha side .. Madara had Hashirama's DNA from their fight, Danzou had hokage!face on his shoulder, so they could .. original sage obviously had everything and possibly didn't need to sacrifice any eyes for it (.. maybe he did if he only ever used it once on the Juuybi before dying)

This makes me wonder how this got to be a forbidden jutsu in the first place IF it required uchiha AND senju abilities...then again, i dont really think it does.
having a perfect harmony of uchiha and senju ability (ie. perfect izanagi used by sage of 6) as i understand it, allows you to harness a power akin to creation something out of nothing, which is different from the izanagi being demonstrated in the manga, at least by Danzo anyways. (correct me if im wrong).
I believe the izanagi danzo uses ONLY requires the sacrifice of the sharingan and his possession of shodai's cells was used only to increase his physical energy since he was a non-uchiha.

to answer the question though, itachi probably could use it but i think the rules would still apply...use the eye, lose the eye (but he can regenerate. why even use izanagi)

[Kallen4life]

I am somewhat confused about izanagi, yeah


I thought the Uchiha part imagines something and the senju part makes it real or something like that


maybe you're right that it only needs a sharingan for sacrifice

[Cael]

Originally Posted by james0246

So...who here thinks Itachi can now use Izanagi without consequece? With his zombie healing factor, I see no reason why he could not spam Izanagi...at least until he runs out of chakra.

Nagato maybe, but unlikely. I see Itachi spamming Susanoo and the other MS jutsu's, so Naruto has an idea about what to expect from Sasuke.

[Xagzan]

Someone needs to tell Nagato what Madara did to Konan. Maybe that'd make him mad enough to break the hold on his spirit like Sasori did.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I thought Izanagi required something from both the Senju AND the Uchiha side .. Madara had Hashirama's DNA from their fight, Danzou had hokage!face on his shoulder, so they could .. original sage obviously had everything and possibly didn't need to sacrifice any eyes for it (.. maybe he did if he only ever used it once on the Juuybi before dying)

No, Izanagi is a Sharingan forbidden technique, but the Senjuu blood is required to extend and control it (especially if you are using multiple eyes ), but the eye still dies after use. Somehow the Uzumaki are thrown into the mix to get a perfect Izanagi...

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

So...who here thinks Itachi can now use Izanagi without consequece? With his zombie healing factor, I see no reason why he could not spam Izanagi...at least until he runs out of chakra.

Thought it needed Senju chakra and Sharingan eyes to do so…
Thought it had been mentioned earlier…

Originally Posted by james0246

No, Izanagi is a Sharingan forbidden technique, but the Senjuu blood is required to extend and control it (especially if you are using multiple eyes ), but the eye still dies after use. Somehow the Uzumaki are thrown into the mix to get a perfect Izanagi...

This will make Sasuke give his already perfect eyes to Naruto, I bet! And these eyes will make the Kyuubi bend to Naruto's will and he will be the ultimate Kyuubi Jinchuuriki Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan user vs. Uchiha Madara fake Jyuubi Jinchuuriki Sharingan-Rin'negan user…

[Kafriel]

IIRC Madara said that the eyes that cast Izanagi are cursed never to open again...so even if they can heal, there's no point if they can't open, amirite? :P
Also no, I don't think anyone will ever spam Izanagi because it would be too broken to use, effectively creating an immortal who only needs so much chakra as to activate it once. Not that we ever got any numbers on those...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

This will make Sasuke give his already perfect eyes to Naruto, I bet! And these eyes will make the Kyuubi bend to Naruto's will and he will be the ultimate Kyuubi Jinchuuriki Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan user vs. Uchiha Madara fake Jyuubi Jinchuuriki Sharingan-Rin'negan user…

Actually, Sharingan + Uzumaki gives you a Rinnigan. It's when you add Senju that you then get a perfect Izanagi.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

IIRC Madara said that the eyes that cast Izanagi are cursed never to open again...so even if they can heal, there's no point if they can't open, amirite? :P
Also no, I don't think anyone will ever spam Izanagi because it would be too broken to use, effectively creating an immortal who only needs so much chakra as to activate it once. Not that we ever got any numbers on those...

Apparently the Rikudou Sennin could spam Izanagi. That being said, you are probably correct that an unaltered Sharingan is actually cursed when it uses Izanagi, possibly similar to why Nagato can not use his legs (or at least why I think he can't use his legs.)

[MidnightViper88]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Madara can't use Nagato, it's Kabuto's pleasure. He needs a wheelchair I guess. It's about time that Naruto defeats Itachi. He never had the chance to... plotwise.

For the first time ever someone managed to control Madara and his actions. When Kabuto fused with Orochimaru, a Kage level top notch villain joined with a Kage guard level medic. They are very very powerful and Kabuto is a twisted genius.
Madara upgraded his power various times after they made contact.

Itachi and Nagato are just referring to Madara. He has both eyes already. He doesn't need NagTo nor Itachi anymore. He posesses their powers already.
Kabuto might need them to counter Madara's new prowess.

Don't believe Madara's words, he's the liar. The big seducer. He's the snake from paradise lying to Adam and Eve. It's true that Orochimaru was the same and maybe Kabuto has seduced Madara, too, but in fact we only know that Madara should be on Sasuke's kill bill... his death note no matter how much he lied to him.

You know, I keep going "Herp Derp" and sometimes blatantly forgetting Madara has both Sharingan and Rinnegan powers, making the need for either Itachi or Nagato moot for Madara...But on the other hand, it's also an internal cold war for now between Madara and Kabuto over who's actually "using" the other; Madara obviously wants to use Kabuto to advance his own plans, but Kabuto also is probably keen on overtaking Madara for power too, or else he wouldn't have even bothered with blackmailing Madara with that mysterious John Doe zombie, or pushing his control over Edo Tensei too far by suggesting ways to revive Jiraiya or Shisui...

It's like a game of chess, only both players have their own boards...

Originally Posted by james0246

No, Izanagi is a Sharingan forbidden technique, but the Senjuu blood is required to extend and control it (especially if you are using multiple eyes ), but the eye still dies after use. Somehow the Uzumaki are thrown into the mix to get a perfect Izanagi...

Izanagi is a forbidden jutsu within the Uchiha clan because the Sharingan that Izanagi is cast from becomes blind after the effects wear off...Izanagi doesn't necessarily require a genetic connection with the Senju clan to use it, as an Uchiha (Or a well-versed Sharingan user) could use it stand-alone with just their Sharingan, but because Izanagi is a technique directly derived from something the Sage created, it requires the genetic traits of both Uchiha and Senju (The respective descendants of the older and younger sons of the Sage himself) to be used at it's fullest capabilities...

The only thing that allowed Danzo to hold Izanagi at such unusually high periods of time for a non-Uchiha Sharingan user is because of the experimentation Orochimaru did to Danzo, on top of the pure quantitative supply of Sharingan Danzo had implanted in his arm...

At the same time, Danzo didn't have much control over the Hashirama cells implanted in his body...Madara apparently has much more control with whatever Hashirama cells he has implanted in his own body...Danzo could only get about ~10 minutes worth of Izanagi with the 10 eyes in his right arm against Sasuke, while Madara could, at most, get the same amount of time with Izanagi using only his left eye against Konan...

So it could be broken down as an Uchiha using Izanagi at it's base capabilities, an Uchiha with Senju DNA using Izanagi at it's fullest capabilities, Izanagi's overall fullest effectiveness dependent on control over Senju DNA...

There's nothing that could keep Itachi from using Izanagi, only dependent on whether or not Itachi actually knows Izanagi...A lack of Senju genetic linkage would be moot, as well as the point of losing a Sharingan, since even at it's least effectiveness, Itachi would still be an undying zombie that wouldn't be killed, Izanagi or otherwise, and with his eye probably able to self-heal due to the regenerating effects of Edo Tensei...Nagato could probably accomplish this with ease by default, living or zombie, having the power of the Rinnegan, dependent only by Nagato's knowledge of the technique (And obviously not before he died)...

The only thing I could see Izanagi being practical for in zombie Itachi would be to escape any seals that would be placed on him, to prevent him from being captured...

I also don't think anything's been said about Naruto, as an Uzumaki, being able to use Izanagi...Although I think it's been remotely hinted about the possibility of Naruto being able to acquire the Rinnegan, which then would probably give him access to Izanagi, if having a bit of an Uchiha's powers inside of him plus being a member of a clan that were distant relatives to the Senju clan wouldn't already give him a chance now (Come on, now, even his Kyuubi Chakra Mode hints that Naruto can have the Sage's powers too)...







Anyway, when I was falling asleep last night, a couple things came to mind about the interaction between Itachi and Nagato, and what they might have actually talked about with each other...

They apparently talked about each other's knowledge about Akatsuki, but I wonder what sort of impression Itachi would have on Nagato should he ever learn about Nagato's devastating assault on Konoha (Given how much Itachi sacrificed for the sake of his village; Mooted by Rinne Tensei, but still a fact none-the-less)...I wonder if any sort of resentment for being used within the Akatsuki would be placed on a higher priority than loyalties or actions taken during the time of their living...Itachi would probably still be able to forgive this, if he would know that Nagato acted under orders of Madara, another case of someone being used to Madara's advantage...

I don't know, I'm just wondering what else they know about what transpired in the world of the living after each of their respective deaths...

[Im_A_MoP]

Someone should give tsunade a sharingan.......... lol and omg itachi <3

[solidguy]

Neji rape face > Sai rape face