2012-10-24, 03:15 | Link #101 |
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Spoiler for SAO Comparison, alluding to the larger issue:
P.S. I'm putting this behind spoiler tags because I don't want people who have not watched SAO to be spoiled, but by the same token I don't want this to just become an SAO thread. I do think it's a useful illustration of a problem that authors can sometimes find themselves in when trying/intending to write strong characters (female).
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-24 at 03:33. |
2012-10-24, 09:52 | Link #102 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Regarding a solution... hmm..
how about this.. instead of trying "fix" things, how about playing said flaw as a strength? why not go all the way? why not make Asuna an enchanted talking sword? And I suppose this can apply to every other characters like that as well. Your character isn't its own person? Why bother making it a person? Why not make it a talking sword, or an android, or a sentient space ship? Good solution, I'd say..
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2012-10-24, 12:29 | Link #104 | |
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One thing that has been a bit interesting about this particular case is that I've actually seen many female viewers defend the characterization in the show and say that the accusations in this regard are overblown (whether they find the writing of the show to be particularly good or not). This is one of the reasons why I think it's likely more a case of a failure to fully realize an intention rather than a deliberate effort to "objectify" the (non-protagonist) characters. (And, as an aside, I have also noticed that some of the people making this complaint most loudly (not you) would be totally fine with the story if the protagonist were female and everything else essentially the same -- a large part of what they don't like is that the overpowered protagonist is male. So I think another aspect of this is more about annoyance about certain gender-based clichés and stereotypes. And or those people -- again, not you -- I think their concerns would largely have been abated simply by having the current situation be reversed, since it would subvert a disliked trope.)
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2012-10-24, 12:49 | Link #105 | |
Did nothing wrong
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2012-10-24, 13:39 | Link #106 | |
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The solution itself isn't really all that difficult: just write women as full-fledged people with their own ambitions, desires and foibles. Real people don't tend to be solely adjutants of other people, so the result should be far more enabling. Ellen Ripley is a good example. At the beginning of Aliens, she's isolated in a world where her former skills are rendered largely useless, so shes' forced to do menial work to make ends meet. All of a sudden, she's offered a chance to change all this provided she performs a dangerous task. There's all sorts of depth to this kind of portrayal, and it greatly elevates her character. Something similar can easily apply to specific example of Asuna. Many of the obstacles brought up involve her directly, so simply make her more of a locus for the action. Explore how these various events affect her, and give her the power to effect change.
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2012-10-24, 14:38 | Link #107 | |
Augumented Paranoia
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2012-10-24, 15:01 | Link #108 | |
The GAP Man
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2012-10-24, 15:23 | Link #109 | ||
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And incidentally, I would also point out again that I don't think the real issue here in this specific case actually has much to do with gender. I don't think any of the other characters in the story, gender-notwithstanding, are treated any differently. You could probably argue that it's a story with only one character, and a whole lot of supporting characters. And that's why I have a bit of a problem construing it as a truly sexist portrayal. Edit: Now that I think about this a bit more, I think part of the problem is also the age of the characters portrayed. If we were talking about adult characters in their 20s/30s/40s, then it's a lot easier to portray them as full of independent, ambitious, and distinct: they can have jobs, they can have past relationships, they can have a whole mess of scars from the past, and so on. There are all sorts of natural circumstances emphasizing their independence that are easy to portray without much explanation. But here we're talking about teenagers, and more specifically in this case we're talking about a teenage girl's first love. Do we expect more maturity, independence and ambition than we should expect from characters their age? Spoiler for Accel World comparison:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-24 at 15:53. |
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2012-10-24, 15:51 | Link #110 | |
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So while I had obviously known that there's plenty of examples of strong well developed female characters with goals of their own in anime throughout the years I've rarely seen it done well with a character that is also obviously designed with sex appeal in mind up until very recently where there's quite a few examples and now honestly I'm kind of intrigued to see where we go from here. It's actually a major reason I made this topic cause I wanted to see what other peoples thoughts were on the matter. I'm glad it's proven to be a pretty popular one at that with lots of great ideas and opinions being presented. |
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2012-10-24, 16:57 | Link #111 | |||||
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I don't really care whether Sword Art Online should be considered sexist, but it does skirt pretty close. And so do a great many of the shows of its nature. Quote:
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2012-10-24, 18:14 | Link #113 | ||
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2012-10-24, 18:29 | Link #114 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nintensalem
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Take look on this, which one you rather choose?
A. 16-years old girl who wields katana or guns and ready to kick some ass in order to save her loved ones(not necessarily love interests). B. 16-years old girl who cry and hate themselves just because they can't do anything to her loved ones(usually loved interests). While A is less realistic and rare outside action shows made for men but I prefer A over B even though B-type girl are more likely to exists in our world than A. Yes it's true girl A only exists to fulfill male fantasies but at least she can stand own her own, which is a good thing. The girl B in other hand while less exploitive but I think it degrades the image of women more than A. |
2012-10-24, 18:46 | Link #115 | |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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There's nothing wrong with falling in love, or being loyal.. or being dedicated to a man they love.
The problem is if that is all they are.. I'm going to rephrase what I said earlier. Asuna being a component to Kirito is not the problem. Asuna MERELY being a component to Kirito and nothing else is the problem. Hence, why I brought up the Bechdel test. The point is to show that girls have more on their minds than just men. Quote:
It's acceptable for an android to not have any aspirations and lives of their own, because well.. they are androids.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-24 at 19:21. Reason: please do not double-post |
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2012-10-24, 18:57 | Link #116 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I don't think Asuna can be labelled as an "object", just because she does not have that much character in your opinion. |
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2012-10-24, 19:39 | Link #117 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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I think you present a false dichotomy. How about:
C) 16-year-old girl who uses her smarts to figure out how to save her loved ones and her leadership skills to mobilize the people and resources she needs to do so. The female protagonist of Summer Wars comes close to this, though she does have to rely on the boy's hacking skills, too. Kou Shurrei in Saiunkoku Monogatari is an even better example since she mobilizes everyone herself rather than relying on an heroic romantic interest. Meganekko characters, while usually not the leads, often play "smart girl" roles in action stories, like Murakami Ginko does in Kurenai. There is no reason why they cannot be category (C) leads instead. Look at Rin in Mnemosyne and Yomiko Readman in Read or Die for examples. One of my favorite "action girl" characters is Nina Fortner of Monster. She is remarkably brave throughout the story and continues to press forward despite the horrible things her investigations uncover. She's smart and beautiful yet only appears as a sexual object in the "Be My Baby" episode when she explicitly chooses to exploit her sexuality to further her ends. While that is a lovely dress, I'm not sure anything can top Julia's gown in Blood+: I smile every time I look at David's face in this scene. Julia tries so hard, too.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2012-10-24 at 19:55. |
2012-10-24, 20:07 | Link #118 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
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Portrayals of women like Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley are progressist, Nano and Fate are not. Edit: ask yourself that question: how many fans are going to stay fans if any of the two girls are paired with a man, and why ships with Chrono and Yuuno are sunk and why the both boys fades in the background. Yuuno DOESN'T even appear in the lastest spinoff for heck's sake. So answer honestly. Why?
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Last edited by Sheba; 2012-10-24 at 20:18. |
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2012-10-24, 21:40 | Link #119 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The same reason Arf is no longer an active character?
If you don't know what to do with a character, you either kill them off, have them retire, or let them fade into obscurity. I get the feeling the author just wants Nanoha to freaking retire and open a cakeshop somewhere in Midchilda. But he's afraid to do that. It's as you said, they seem to have trouble moving past Nanoha, and by extension, the old cast. (Why do we even need Hayate?) It's like Dragon's ball Goku and Gohan again. Goku will never be replaced. So then, why should Nanoha retire? Well, it's not just because she has passed the typical age of a magical girl. Xd In regards to this thread, I think Nanoha's problem is the opposite of what I said earlier. She's the opposite of not having her own life. She has friends. She has a career. She has students who have become adult professionals themselves. And now she's a mother. She has a goddamn fulfilling life. She's a complete product, and thus she has very little room left for growth. ..
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Last edited by Key Board; 2012-10-24 at 22:02. |
2012-10-24, 23:58 | Link #120 | ||||
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In the case of Sword Art Online, it's not too difficult to see places where that character-driven storytelling could have been inserted. The consequence would have been a lot less "heroic main character saves the day" as a result, but it would have made for better characterization. Quote:
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character development, fanservice, gender roles, sexism, trends |
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