For 40+, who else is nearly done?

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

It baffles me why adults cannot or should not enjoy the same things that kids do.

GeGeGe no Kitarou (2018) proves that point nearly every week.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

It baffles me why adults cannot or should not enjoy the same things that kids do.

We've been conditioned to think this.

I've always found it so hypocritical that adults are allowed to, even encouraged to like sports, but liking things such as video games, comics, etc is looked down on.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Endscape

We've been conditioned to think this.

I've always found it so hypocritical that adults are allowed to, even encouraged to like sports, but liking things such as video games, comics, etc is looked down on.

In Japan, there’s a very palpable difference between manga and other medium in this respect. It would be fair to say that there’s little social stigma attached to reading manga - it’s intended to be consumed by those in all age groups and social strata, and is. Gaming and especially anime are different, though even there as long as an adult isn’t what’s commonly dismissed as an “otaku” (basically, keeps their consumption on a discrete and individual enjoyment rather than social level) there’s not nearly as much of a shame factor as there is in the U.S..

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In Japan, there’s a very palpable difference between manga and other medium in this respect. It would be fair to say that there’s little social stigma attached to reading manga - it’s intended to be consumed by those in all age groups and social strata, and is. Gaming and especially anime are different, though even there as long as an adult isn’t what’s commonly dismissed as an “otaku” (basically, keeps their consumption on a discrete and individual enjoyment rather than social level) there’s not nearly as much of a shame factor as there is in the U.S..

I've always found it odd they make such a stark distinction, when a lot of anime are manga adaptations (well, not so much these days). And it's not like this is new, although I do wonder when it started.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I've always found it odd they make such a stark distinction, when a lot of anime are manga adaptations (well, not so much these days). And it's not like this is new, although I do wonder when it started.

Well, you live in the country that out of all in the West probably has the least social stigma attached to comics or animation. The comics culture in France is probably the only one in the world that can sort of compare to manga culture historically speaking.

As to why this divide exists in Japan, I imagine there are a number of reasons for it. Manga is considered both a literary and native medium, for starters. It's far more diverse than anime, which allows seemingly limitless titles directed at every demographic group. And it's never had an otaku subculture around it like either the old or new-school otaku subculture with anime.

Simply put, I think the general distaste among "respectable" Japanese towards those they dismiss as otaku has made anime in general a less socially acceptable hobby. I don't think this applies to mainstream stuff like Miyazaki, Hosoda or (now) Shinkai, or to anime associated with revered manga like Kitarou and such, though.

[kari-no-sugata II]

My general impression is that in Japan (and other nearby countries) there's a starker difference between something being "acceptable" or not. ie it's more binary. Manga is very very widely available. All bookshops will carry them. Ditto for things like corner shops. Basically, you can't avoid it. On the other hand, buying anime or anime related products generally (but not always) means going out of your way to a specialist store that carries it.

However, that's not to say that all anime is regarded as niche. Anime that runs on prime time TV and major films can be considered mainstream - ie no social stigma to have watched them. However, late night anime in particular seems to have a social stigma attached - simply admitting to watching it is like coming out as an otaku, it seems.

[dragon1412]

frankly, i'd say availability and perception, Anime and manga has been around for quite long and many grow up with it, take doraemon, you'd actually be hard press to find anyone who is actually not aware of it or don't watch it in Japan

The whole issues in other countries in my eyes, is that in our time, our parents or grandparents generally grow up without it and they think it's for kid, nowadays it's passed down from one generation to the next as stereotype and that create the current mindset, sports is view favorable is because it was popular in that era and move itself with the mindset we have currently

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

My general impression is that in Japan (and other nearby countries) there's a starker difference between something being "acceptable" or not. ie it's more binary. Manga is very very widely available. All bookshops will carry them. Ditto for things like corner shops. Basically, you can't avoid it. On the other hand, buying anime or anime related products generally (but not always) means going out of your way to a specialist store that carries it.

However, that's not to say that all anime is regarded as niche. Anime that runs on prime time TV and major films can be considered mainstream - ie no social stigma to have watched them. However, late night anime in particular seems to have a social stigma attached - simply admitting to watching it is like coming out as an otaku, it seems.

I think there’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s quite as tidy as time slot being the absolute determining factor. Something like Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu was a late-night series but also widely recognized as being quite literary and respectable.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In Japan, there’s a very palpable difference between manga and other medium in this respect. It would be fair to say that there’s little social stigma attached to reading manga - it’s intended to be consumed by those in all age groups and social strata, and is. Gaming and especially anime are different, though even there as long as an adult isn’t what’s commonly dismissed as an “otaku” (basically, keeps their consumption on a discrete and individual enjoyment rather than social level) there’s not nearly as much of a shame factor as there is in the U.S..

I think I remember reading once that people like Tsutomu Miyazaki are the reason why being an otaku is looked down on in Japan.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think there’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s quite as tidy as time slot being the absolute determining factor. Something like Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu was a late-night series but also widely recognized as being quite literary and respectable.

Was it to the point that being an open fan of this show was seen as respectable by the majority, the way being a Game of Thrones fan is, for example?

[Guardian Enzo]

Well, that's not a great comparison because GoT is a massive international phenomenon and an anime like Rakugo is a niche affair. Part of it is that there are limited ways one might express their appreciation for a show like that - no merchandising tie-ins or doujin fairs or cafes. In a sense I think it's as much that being a fan of such a series is anonymous as that it's respectable. But if one were to discuss it around the coffee machine at the office, they wouldn't be mocked for it.

As to how much Miyazaki (and the Akhabara massacre) are responsible for the ostracization of otaku is hard to say. They certainly didn't help but I tend to think their part in it is a bit overblown.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by 0cean

You're doing a thing were you compare two decades that you cherry-pick from with a season... As long as you still find an anime you enjoy at least once every two years, nothing has changed.

I must say I'm quite bemused as to why you singled out my post. It seems that you think that I've cherry-picked anime from specific periods and made unfair comparisons. If that's the case, then you've misunderstood my point.

Essentially, I was making the case that I have changed as a person. And because my interests have changed, I no longer pursue the hobby like I used to. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy anime any more. It just means that the medium is no longer as important to me as it once was.

So, in that sense, I am "done" with anime. There are many factors for this. For one thing, fads have changed, and that's not something you can outright deny, any more than you can deny that superhero movies are one of the current trends in Hollywood (which I am not particularly fond of, either).

The other factor is that I now know more about anime and, as a result, the novelty is gone. An anime would have to be significantly different in some way for me to be excited about it. And, yes, you're right. There are always one or two series a year that would achieve this. But that hardly compares to the rate at which I was consuming anime that I personally enjoyed, about 10 years ago.

So does that count as cherry-picking? I don't think so at all. Rather, it's just me, stating my subjective experience, for what it is. I was a different person, 10 years ago, and anime was different to me, 10 years ago as well. And it was that confluence of subjective factors that made anime an important hobby for me, 10 years ago. But all of that has changed, and I'm essentially "done" with the medium, for now.

This is a very natural part of growing up, and no one stays static. Musicians and artists grow bored, and they look for newer and more exciting ways to express themselves. Similarly, audiences will also change. They'll move on to other things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But with change comes differences of opinions, and different ways of seeing the world. And that's why critical discussion is important, because it's through robust discussion that we discover what we truly mean, and what we're truly looking for.

This of course will take effort, but that's what makes it worthwhile.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by 0cean

I personally find the types of anime with a huge budget to be a little bit soulless myself. Just think back to Kemono Friends, which proved that you can capture that soul even on basically a zero budget. Works like Kimi no Na wa on the other hand look very, very pretty and do little else. If that's the type of works we get by pumping money into the industry, I'd rather not do that.

Subjective. Plenty of people actually think Kimi no Na Wa was full of "soul." And BTW, the money helps only in terms of the visuals and production. It wouldn't have affected the plotline at all which is where the "soul" lies for many. So no, throwing money at things isn't the point here. You just need to wait for that one writer who makes something that appeals to you....it's always been this way since forever.

The stories generally follow distinct trends every time period and right now it's made worse by the flood of every random person trying to cash in with copy-paste formats so of course separating what you want from background noise has gotten much harder. The same problem is unfortunately killing the VN industry now with how writers spend less time on polishing stories and instead pander to trends to try to counter falling demand. This issue isn't going to change BTW.....Internet and mass communication + consumer's laziness etc etc

[0cean]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

There are always one or two series a year that would achieve this. But that hardly compares to the rate at which I was consuming anime that I personally enjoyed, about 10 years ago.

So does that count as cherry-picking? I don't think so at all.

It is cherry-picking, because ten years ago you could only consume so much anime you enjoyed, since you were able to pick from all anime, instead of just a season of anime, which was reflected in your selection. That's the point I was making. You basically pit a season or a year of anime against decades worth of anime and lament that there are not enough interesting shows to pick from anymore. It's alright to have changed enough to lose interest in anime, but the core of anime hasn't changed all that much, is what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

money helps only in terms of the visuals and production. It wouldn't have affected the plotline at all which is where the "soul" lies for many.

My experience with Ghibli contradicts this statement. They started out as a small studio that passionately made anime, but after Mononoke-hime I haven't seen a single movie from them that I get an anime vibe from. Now they make pretty movies with mass appeal.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

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[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by 0cean

You basically pit a season or a year of anime against decades worth of anime and lament that there are not enough interesting shows to pick from anymore. It's alright to have changed enough to lose interest in anime, but the core of anime hasn't changed all that much, is what I'm saying.

I went through that burst of watching shows when I first started with anime. But after about six months to a year I began watching seasonal shows pretty much exclusively. (My sense is that is also at least somewhat true for TRL, but I'll let him speak for himself here.)

So my perceptions come from watching four seasons of anime a year for thirteen years. It may be true that the "core of anime" hasn't changed much, but the diversity of offerings has varied a great deal over the period that I have been following anime. If I look over my scores at MAL I have many more shows in my list from 2007-2008 than 2009. 2011 was a pretty dry year as well. I've watched many more shows in each of the past three years than I did in 2009-2011. Production committees played their cards close to their vests after the recession; they've loosened up some now.

[Eisdrache]

I don't really have much to add to the age/anime discussion, hopefully relentlessflame won't send me to the people's court.

Originally Posted by 0cean

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As long as we disagree on the basic point that capitalism shouldn't decide whether or not someone deserves to live there is no further point to this discussion as we will find no common ground at all.

[Mad Pierrot]

I have been reading for a decade the shonen D.Gray-man and I don't find issues with a cast of teenagers. The only thing that bothers me is how slow the serialization is due to Hoshino's physical problems.

My parents aren't into any anime or anything but I remember that once I managed to get them into Metal Gear Solid 3 due to the cutscene in which Snake is tortured by Volgin. A friend of mine who is about the same age as me kind of dropped manga but he is still not reading Stephen King's novels (that kind of scare me to be honest).

Still, when seeing a cast of characters I prefer variety which bothered me in Final Fantasy X-2 because it only had women of about the same age or Final Fantasy XV which only had dudes. Instead I really like the story mode from Tekken 6 (despite the broken controls) because you control of a soldier named Lars who is quite older than the antagonist Jin (a young adult). Still, if the action or gameplay is good I will enjoy the story or manga or gaming.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by 0cean

...but the core of anime hasn't changed all that much, is what I'm saying.

Saying that the "core of anime" hasn't changed is about as useful as telling me that the "core of Hollywood movies" hasn't changed from the '50s till today. Or, for that matter, that the "core of being Japanese" hasn't changed from the immediate post-war era till today.

It's rather silly to think that everything is static, and that the people of one time period are completely comparable to those of another. Post-war Japan is definitely different from Reiwa Japan in all kinds of ways — from the way the Japanese relate to one another and the rest of the world, to their hopes and dreams for the future. And the defining moods and spirit of each era inevitably has an impact on the kinds of art, expression and, yes, the anime that's created.

It only takes a cursory glance to see that the very aesthetics of anime has changed, from the 80s till today, let alone those from even earlier periods. One cannot simply ignore such differences when comparing anime from the '80s, with those of the 2010s.

If nothing else, fads have changed. And along with it, the kinds of topical discussion one could have about fads have also changed. Taking note of such differences is not so much about cherry-picking as it is about comparative analysis.

What I suspect you're trying to say is that anime in broad strokes — such as the kinds of genre one could expect to find in the medium — hasn't changed much. And yes, to that extent, I can agree. Giant-mecha cartoons are still produced today, as they were in the 1980s. The same could be said of high-school romances and the now ubiquitous isekai adventures.

But when you generalise anime to such extent, you are effectively ignoring the differences, even within genres, from one time period to the next. All I can say is that, if you're intent on taking this view, then there really isn't much to discuss. To me, it's just sophistry, because while you appear to make an intelligent point about the so-called "core of anime", in truth, I highly doubt you would be able to come up with an objective defintion of what that "core" is.

It'll still come down to your subjective preferences of what you think defines anime, and when such choices are involved, it'll be hard to claim that you yourself have not "cherry-picked" facts to suit your argument.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by 0cean

My experience with Ghibli contradicts this statement. They started out as a small studio that passionately made anime, but after Mononoke-hime I haven't seen a single movie from them that I get an anime vibe from. Now they make pretty movies with mass appeal.




[/TLDR]

Was that because of the dollars Ghibli pours in.....or because Ghibli now has a different target audience? (And I don't disagree BTW....I never touched any Ghibli stuff after Mononoke either )

With Shinkai's studio the plot and direction are largely a one-man show by Shinkai himself anyway so I think that is also a major difference in that I don't see him radically changing his thematic approach as a result of cash. It already brings home the bacon after all. Kimi no Na Wa is a bit different but even then you can still clearly see the similarities with 5cm/sec

And in the end, if the piece of art has managed to elicit a response from its audience then it has done its job, being more than just "pretty pictures". Mass appeal is still appeal. It's just really a question of whether does it work for you personally or not (Ghibli works generally don't have any purchase with me....I'm fine with that. I just watch other things). Themes undergo seasonal changes over time so either you find a writer who writes the themes that strike home for you (and they are always there...just a question of how difficult to find and not necessarily in anime format) or just lighten up your judgemental expectations and enjoy everything else for what they are

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

On the other hand, buying anime or anime related products generally (but not always) means going out of your way to a specialist store that carries it.

Anime itself is actually pretty easy to find in Japan. Any shop that sells blurays and DVDs will have it, ie just about any major Sofmap outlet should have them although everyone seems to just stream them online these days

[0cean]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Saying that the "core of anime" hasn't changed is about as useful as telling me that the "core of Hollywood movies" hasn't changed from the '50s till today.

The core of Hollywood absolutely has changed.

Anime hasn't changed at it's core, because anime is facing inwards. It was mentioned in this thread before and is sometimes described as incestuous, since anime don't look at and reflect reality, but they look at and reflect other anime. This trend started around 1981. You can pick up a bunch of anime from the 1980s and pretty much find the same tropes you see nowadays. There might be some slight variation, but not much. Sure, character design may have changed, but character design isn't the core of anime.

The core of anime isn't one thing, but a lose aggregation of different tropes, like you see in the picture I've linked. Also, things that are hard to put into words. Like this. Or this image featuring anime from the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Was that because of the dollars Ghibli pours in.....or because Ghibli now has a different target audience? (And I don't disagree BTW....I never touched any Ghibli stuff after Mononoke either )

The more money you put in, the more money you need to get out. Eventually a core following of otaku won't be enough to sustain you, so you need to expand into the mainstream. Once you have a foothold there, your core audience loses relevance.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

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As long as we disagree on the basic point that capitalism shouldn't decide whether or not someone deserves to live there is no further point to this discussion as we will find no common ground at all.

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[Haak]

Originally Posted by endarion88

i also seems to watch less and less anime at every season

my problems is..most anime nowday are adaptations, and i just cant find interest in watching those adaptations that i know, are just glorified prologues, that cover more or less the first 3 volumes of a manga or LN

and after that if i want to know how the story actualy ENDS i have to HOPE someone actualy translate said novel or manga

so now...i mostly watch ORIGINAL animes only

And even those don't always get an ending...

Yeah, I'm honestly just getting so sick of this popular production model in anime where they only give a show one cour (maybe two if we're lucky) and then it just never gets finished. When something as basic as an actually fucking ending to a story is something that I have to be thankful for, that's when I have to seriously question whether seasonal anime is worth it anymore.

And even if they do get continuations, they end up being months or even years down the line when all momentum is already lost. And most of the time, the continuation doesn't resolve anything and you'd have to be even luckier to get a continuation past that. It's so depressing.

[EDIT]

Wait, why did you delete your post?...