About Shinn and Kira...

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Grunts pretty much could learn too, you know. Kira in Strike would also be pwned by grunts in zakus and goufs if Lacus was not there and did not give him the new Freedom. Whilst Shinn was never losing to grunts in Impulse which, except for part shifting, was pretty much on the original-Strike-level in terms of powerfulness.

Kira in Strike has never been actually defeated by grunts though, and he was only given Freedom because Strike was destroyed, not because he couldn't handle the grunts. It's rather irrelevant.

Moreover, it's not like Shinn didn't have problems with grunts(the crab like mobile suit).
Not to mention Shinn has so much more backup than Kira had back then.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Neku

Kira in Strike has never been actually defeated by grunts though, and he was only given Freedom because Strike was destroyed, not because he couldn't handle the grunts. It's rather irrelevant.

Erm, But I was talking about the moment Kira took Strike Rouge and rushed to space to save Lacus from attacking goufs and zakus. Kira had help in Waltfeldt, but still had his Strike trashed. He almost got utterly destroyed the moment he reached the entrance to the spaceship. But oh my god, Lacus actually had this super duper mecha in store! God, that was so cheap... the Strike Freedom episode.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Erm, But I was talking about the moment Kira took Strike Rouge and rushed to space to save Lacus from attacking goufs and zakus. Kira had help in Waltfeldt, but still had his Strike trashed. He almost got utterly destroyed the moment he reached the entrance to the spaceship. But oh my god, Lacus actually had this super duper mecha in store! God, that was so cheap... the Strike Freedom episode.

For the record, Kira knew there'd be a new mobile suit on board, considering Waltfeld told him as much: "Go pick up your new machine."

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

For the record, Kira knew there'd be a new mobile suit on board, considering Waltfeld told him as much: "Go pick up your new machine."

Yeah. And I suppose "he didn't care" about him being hit bu grunts. This way or the other, it's just as it was with Shinn vs Kira fight. "He did not go all out" is just a cheap excuse for him being trashed around.

[NoOneKnowS]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Erm, But I was talking about the moment Kira took Strike Rouge and rushed to space to save Lacus from attacking goufs and zakus. Kira had help in Waltfeldt, but still had his Strike trashed. He almost got utterly destroyed the moment he reached the entrance to the spaceship. But oh my god, Lacus actually had this super duper mecha in store! God, that was so cheap... the Strike Freedom episode.

Kira in a Strike in GS DESTINY? lol; Strike would be like way outdated already. And IIRC, even the Impulse was at Freedoms level and the only diff. is of course the specs and Freedom being nuclear powered. So if were comparing Strike vs. Impulse then Impulse it the better suit of the two. I'd be pretty stupid for the ZAFTS to create a suit only comparable to Strike in terms of power having already creating Freedom, Justice and Providence back at Seed. Thats why Kira's Strike rouge got owned by gruntz since like all suits at Destiny have better suits.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Kira in a Strike in GS DESTINY? lol; Strike would be like way outdated already. And IIRC, even the Impulse was at Freedoms level and the only diff. is of course the specs and Freedom being nuclear powered. So if were comparing Strike vs. Impulse then Impulse it the better suit of the two. I'd be pretty stupid for the ZAFTS to create a suit only comparable to Strike in terms of power having already creating Freedom, Justice and Providence back at Seed. Thats why Kira's Strike rouge got owned by gruntz since like all suits at Destiny have better suits.

In two years, I don't think the rift was that big. I think Strike is comparable to Impulse in terms of power. The only viable proof to that is the EA vs. ZAFT game in which one could see that Feedom is way more powerful than Strike or Impulse (which are basically same levels). I know it is not that strong a proof, but better a weak one than none at all. Like, show me that Strike is less powerful than Impulse. If it had the ability to switch packs, it'd also stand up to Freedom so I don't really see relevance in the technology progression argument.

Shinn did better against grunts than Kira.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Yeah. And I suppose "he didn't care" about him being hit bu grunts. This way or the other, it's just as it was with Shinn vs Kira fight. "He did not go all out" is just a cheap excuse for him being trashed around.

What are you talking about? Of course he did go all out (at least, in this case). And the two times Kira was hit during the entire time he was in Strike (Rouge) was when he blocked a shot to the Eternal and when he was getting ready to enter the Eternal. Neither of which was a favorable position to be, whether or not he cared.

If it had the ability to switch packs...

But it doesn't (at least, not automatically) and that's the point(, not to mention that packs are not the only thing that Impulse could switch and that Impulse can actually fly in Earth's atmosphere). So I'm not saying Shinn doesn't have skills, but he also had advantages that Kira never had in battle.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by monstert

What are you talking about? Of course he did go all out (at least, in this case). And the two times Kira was hit during the entire time he was in Strike (Rouge) was when he blocked a shot to the Eternal and when he was getting ready to enter the Eternal. Neither of which was a favorable position to be, whether or not he cared.

Shinn never gave in to grunts, even when he was desperate. AND in this case, Kira was in space, so the Aile pack worked.

Originally Posted by monstert

But it doesn't (at least, not automatically) and that's the point(, not to mention that packs are not the only thing that Impulse could switch and that Impulse can actually fly in Earth's atmosphere). So I'm not saying Shinn doesn't have skills, but he also had advantages that Kira never had in battle.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that all those people who measure the character's skill by the degree of grunt-dealing (like saying that certain Extended where less skilled than the first druggies from the first season because they were defeated by gruntz) should consider Kira to be weaker than Shinn in this case, as Asuka never never got his mecha seriously damaged by grunts. More than that, he never got his mecha seriously damaged AT ALL except for the moments he lost energy or Kira/Athrun where beating the sh*t out of him (of course they had to win).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn never gave in to grunts, even when he was desperate. AND in this case, Kira was in space, so the Aile pack worked.

Kira did not gave in to grunts either, what he gave in to is the fact that his mobile suit can do nothing much when it has lost both of its arms.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that all those people who measure the character's skill by the degree of grunt-dealing (like saying that certain Extended where less skilled than the first druggies from the first season because they were defeated by gruntz) should consider Kira to be weaker than Shinn in this case, as Asuka never never got his mecha seriously damaged by grunts. More than that, he never got his mecha seriously damaged AT ALL except for the moments he lost energy or Kira/Athrun where beating the sh*t out of him (of course they had to win).

The term "seriously damaged" is relative to the mobile suit. Saying Shinn has the better mobile suit would be much more accurate than any comparison of relative skills between two pilots with different experiences against grunts and supports in battle.

[kaito-kid]

Shinn never gave in to grunts, even when he was desperate. AND in this case, Kira was in space, so the Aile pack worked.

You think those guys in epi 23 were grunts? They were ZAFT red coats (which means they are elites). They even recognized the DRAGOON system and Freedom, which means they even fought and survived the Battle at Jachin due. But they looked like shit because of the recycled animation...Blame it on Fu*kuda.

So I think Kira did well in a outdated MS against a bunch of 'grunts'.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Erm, But I was talking about the moment Kira took Strike Rouge and rushed to space to save Lacus from attacking goufs and zakus.

Really? I'm sorry. When you said Strike, I didn't think of Strike Rouge. Just Strike.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Kira had help in Waltfeldt, but still had his Strike trashed. He almost got utterly destroyed the moment he reached the entrance to the spaceship. But oh my god, Lacus actually had this super duper mecha in store! God, that was so cheap... the Strike Freedom episode.

Correction.
The first thing Kira did as soon as he appeared was disarming the Zaku aiming at Eternal, and another two before commencing a conversation with Lacus. After that he shot down another 3 Zakus. Next, the scene showed a Zaku aiming at Eternal's entrance of which Kira rushed to shield its attack. It was only then that Andrew helped by using Kira's gun to attack that Zaku.

Got his Strike trashed? Yeah, but definitely not because he couldn't evade that attack.
Helped by Andrew in the process? Yes, but only after both of Strike's arms were destroyed; when Strike was basically rendered useless.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn never gave in to grunts, even when he was desperate. AND in this case, Kira was in space, so the Aile pack worked.

So you're saying that Kira should actually linger around a little more and wait for someone to shoot him down to show that he's not giving in.. even when he's desperate?

Of course Shinn never had to. He just had to sound Meyrin.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that all those people who measure the character's skill by the degree of grunt-dealing (like saying that certain Extended where less skilled than the first druggies from the first season because they were defeated by gruntz) should consider Kira to be weaker than Shinn in this case, as Asuka never never got his mecha seriously damaged by grunts. More than that, he never got his mecha seriously damaged AT ALL except for the moments he lost energy or Kira/Athrun where beating the sh*t out of him (of course they had to win).

So?
Has Shinn ever defended Minerva? ..and by defending, I mean blocking attacks from grunts with his mobile suit.

He was never under the pressure of having to defend Minerva. The only pressure he ever had was destroying what's in front of him. From piloting Impulse to Destiny, Shinn's job was always to charge in in assault, and that's what he always does, too. The responsibility of Minerva's safety was most often left for Lunamaria and Rey back then.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Neku

Correction.
The first thing Kira did as soon as he appeared was disarming the Zaku aiming at Eternal, and another two before commencing a conversation with Lacus. After that he shot down another 3 Zakus. Next, the scene showed a Zaku aiming at Eternal's entrance of which Kira rushed to shield its attack. It was only then that Andrew helped by using Kira's gun to attack that Zaku.

Got his Strike trashed? Yeah, but definitely not because he couldn't evade that attack.
Helped by Andrew in the process? Yes, but only after both of Strike's arms were destroyed; when Strike was basically rendered useless.



So you're saying that Kira should actually linger around a little more and wait for someone to shoot him down to show that he's not giving in.. even when he's desperate?

Of course Shinn never had to. He just had to sound Meyrin.



So?
Has Shinn ever defended Minerva? ..and by defending, I mean blocking attacks from grunts with his mobile suit.

He was never under the pressure of having to defend Minerva. The only pressure he ever had was destroying what's in front of him. From piloting Impulse to Destiny, Shinn's job was always to charge in in assault, and that's what he always does, too. The responsibility of Minerva's safety was most often left for Lunamaria and Rey back then.

Correct. And even if Shinn had trouble with Impulse, well there are always the seemingly infinite amount of Silhouettes for him to use. As long as his cockpit is not damaged, he is fine. . .

So, Kira in Strike Rouge sucks when compared to Shinn in Impulse. Dude, if he could have replaced his hands when he fought those grunts attacking Eternal, he would have. The Strike would have been replenished and he could have fought longer. It's just that the Strike basically sucks when compared to the CE 73 Grunt suits and Kira already knew that he had Strike Freedom to use.

What are you suggesting? Kira doesn't give up with the armless Strike and charges forward? With what? Biting his knife and hack and slash like that guy from One Piece? I think even if you combined the skills of Amuro, Judau, Kamille, Uso, Seabook, Garrod, Athrun, and Shinn, the pilot would have still lost.

And I think that even if Strike Freedom was not there, he would have taken Andrew Waltfeld's mobile suit instead and keep fighting. God knows he has no problem adapting to a new mobile suit.

[Sir Dearka]

Shinn never shielded Minerva because he never had to. For most of the time, ther battleship did well as you said with such aces as Luna or Rey defending it.

Asuka is essentially a more "flashy" fighter. Never said that he was more powerful or talented than Kira. The argument about grunts was just my reply to the guy that started to analyze skills through the grunt-deal factor. To me, Shinn was merely a better character than Kira in Destiny. With Kira failing utterly to gain sympathy in my eyes this time. I just wanted him dead by the end, so cheaply his character was carried out. Of course they also had to destroy Shinn's character, too, but even with his defeat he seemed to me a much more interesting and cooler char than the cyborg yamato was.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn never shielded Minerva because he never had to. For most of the time, ther battleship did well as you said with such aces as Luna or Rey defending it.

..which is why you cannot compare Kira with Shinn in this case.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Never said that he was more powerful or talented than Kira.

I believe we never suggested that you said that either.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

The argument about grunts was just my reply to the guy that started to analyze skills through the grunt-deal factor.

Exactly. We were discussing about that.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Neku

..which is why you cannot compare Kira with Shinn in this case.

In case of the exact way of dealing with enemies, no, I cannot. But comparing and evaluating the perfomances in general, yes, I can.

Originally Posted by Neku

I believe we never suggested that you said that either

Just mentioned to avoid the false directions in discussion.

Originally Posted by Neku

Exactly. We were discussing about that.

So, judging from the performance of Shinn and Kira against grunts, Shinn just comes out plain better in my eyes. More memoreble for sure, as I already said.

[NoOneKnowS]

Nah; Kira fought his hardest battles at the beginning of Seed all throughout until he got his Freedom(MS). Kira's job back then was to just protect the Archangel until they reach HQ. He was fighting 4 of the best Zaft redcoats. The best Commander(watfeld); and that other commander while they were at sea. Come to think of it. Kira was never fighting gruntz at that time. Of course there are some nameless mobile suits here and there getting slashed by Kira but at most he was always fighting named enemies in Strike. Those nameless no brain grunts that Shinn loves to destroy never really came into the picture up until Kira was flying using his Freedom. (thats midway through Seed)>

[Dark Shikra]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

In case of the exact way of dealing with enemies, no, I cannot. But comparing and evaluating the perfomances in general, yes, I can.

The way you evaluate is weird.
How to compare when Kira is always fighting people like Athrun/Yzak/Dearka/Nicol in SEED and Shinn only shoot down those Zaku in Destiny???? Those people Shinn defeat in Destiny are like the side unimportant characters in Destiny. Kira and Shinn are so different! Kira showed a lot of fighting styles in SEED until he got Freedom, and he can finally "relax". Shinn from piloting Impulse to Destiny always destroy those side characters only. The difference I find is in Destiny he manage to finish off that big Gundam Stellar was piloting. But then it seems like nothing because Lunamaria and Rey can finish those off too.

How Shinn impresses you, I don't know. But in my eyes, he's just a lousy pilot compared to Kira. I know he destroyed Freedom. But it's so cheap. He got Rey to help him. and his stupid sword can suddenly go through Freedom when the top has no beam. Everytime I watch that scene I feel so cheated. Coz that way to destroy Freedom is just so cheap. I wish Shinn defeat Freedom with Destiny, and Kira fight like he was in SEED. Then maybe Shinn is not that lousy.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Nah; Kira fought his hardest battles at the beginning of Seed all throughout until he got his Freedom(MS). Kira's job back then was to just protect the Archangel until they reach HQ. He was fighting 4 of the best Zaft redcoats. The best Commander(watfeld); and that other commander while they were at sea. Come to think of it. Kira was never fighting gruntz at that time. Of course there are some nameless mobile suits here and there getting slashed by Kira but at most he was always fighting named enemies in Strike. Those nameless no brain grunts that Shinn loves to destroy never really came into the picture up until Kira was flying using his Freedom.

Yeah. Kira always fought named enemies, spending most of the rest of his screentime crying to the pillow. Shinn pretty much faced as many named enemies, including opur merry band AND he killed many grunts on the way.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

The way you evaluate is weird.
How to compare when Kira is always fighting people like Athrun/Yzak/Dearka/Nicol in SEED and Shinn only shoot down those Zaku in Destiny???? Those people Shinn defeat in Destiny are like the side unimportant characters in Destiny. Kira and Shinn are so different! Kira showed a lot of fighting styles in SEED until he got Freedom, and he can finally "relax". Shinn from piloting Impulse to Destiny always destroy those side characters only. The difference I find is in Destiny he manage to finish off that big Gundam Stellar was piloting. But then it seems like nothing because Lunamaria and Rey can finish those off too.

How Shinn impresses you, I don't know. But in my eyes, he's just a lousy pilot compared to Kira. I know he destroyed Freedom. But it's so cheap. He got Rey to help him. and his stupid sword can suddenly go through Freedom when the top has no beam. Everytime I watch that scene I feel so cheated. Coz that way to destroy Freedom is just so cheap. I wish Shinn defeat Freedom with Destiny, and Kira fight like he was in SEED. Then maybe Shinn is not that lousy.

LOL, you seem to conveniently ommit the fact that right from the beginning Shinn fought the three druggies. Then he killed Auel, and then Sting in Destroy. And then he beat Yamato in Impulse. If you feel cheated, go to Kira because of his "WTF-I-was-suppposed-to-overwhelm-him" he lost the fight. That's one cheap excuse of his defenders. Kira in the first season was great, too, but less memorable in performance as a pilot than Shinn, I think. He had less of those "wow, that's nicely done" moments than Asuka IMO.

What was really cheap was Kira owning everyone in Strike Freedom. Strike Freedom's design is cheap in comparison to Freedoms. And Destiny cyborg Kira is cheap in comparison to first SEED Kira. It's just my opinion and you may look at it differently.

In the end the only character Shinn really losed to was Athrun. They had to make up in this lousy way the fact that young Zala actually sucked in his new role throughout almost the whole series. "Hey, so what that I've learnt so many things about friendship and justice in the first season. Look, those are my friends. Let me join ZAFT again abd face them in combat!" ROTFL

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Kira always fought named enemies, spending most of the rest of his screentime crying to the pillow...And Destiny cyborg Kira is cheap in comparison to first SEED Kira.

What do those things have to do with anything? It's the same thing with Shinn and his phone, those are part of who they are, so stop being so shallow. And the term "cyborg Kira" doesn't even make any sense.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by monstert

What do those things have to do with anything? It's the same thing with Shinn and his phone, those are part of who they are, so stop being so shallow. And the term "cyborg Kira" doesn't even make any sense.

Well, sorry for prefering Shinn's character over Kira's. Especially Destiny Kira's. I call Yamato "cyborg" because he seemed to be one. A combat machine. But they somehow corrected it in Special Edition. Still, it did not wipe out my bad impression of his character from the actual second series.