Athrun Zala vs. Char Aznable

[tragicsmile]

You folks do realize that technology is treated rather differently in C.E. and U.C., no? For example, the rather ridiculous agility of C.E. mecha in both the atmosphere and in space(granted that U.C. mecha have no business being useful in the atmosphere either); the prevalence of beam weaponry in Destiny as compared to U.C., leading to the beamspam and dragoonspam that C.E. characters are so fond of; finally the fact that U.C. doesn't really have anything like "phase shift armor" or whatever? Due to those fundamental differences, I don't really think a Sazabi vs. I.J. vs. whatever argument is the most sound argument to make.

In my opinion however, I prefer the way the U.C. mechs move and fight. It's just a wee bit more believable to me.

[SNT1]

why not? This debate is actually fun, it brings up the advantages and disadvantages of compared MSes and exploited :P

[tragicsmile]

Well, it just seemed like an exercise in futility to me. Whatever floats your boat~

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

so when you said:

"This is because a beam shield is supposed to remove the need for a normal shield, thus offering more mobility due to less mass and lighter weight, but the I-J has a normal shield anyway, with two different weapons in it too, which weigh it down more"

You are not implying I-J is slow because its heavier? hmmmm....

Uhhh, no, that says nothing about I-J being slow. It says plenty about I-J being slower than if it didn't have a solid shield, though...

Originally Posted by SNT1

Did Char's gun ever go through a beam shield then?

Did I say that? No. Did I say he ever had a beam shield to shoot through? No. But I did say that the kind of beam cannon the Sazabi has has been proven to punch through beam shields. Heck, standard beam cannons from CCA battleships have been proven to punch through beam shields. (see the F-91 movie)

Originally Posted by SNT1

Since beam shields are what, 30 years more advanced than CCA era, ten beam shield could most likely block beam shots from a 30 year older weapon. Of course, im assuming F91 beam = GSD beam shields since thats what you assumed.

The very fact that beam shields exist a mere 2 years after the development of mobile suits in CE, suggests quite strongly that the beam shields of CE aren't as good as the ones in UC, since UC took its time and developed beam shields over the span of 50 years in comparison to CE's 2 years.

What do you mean "ten beam shield"? I-J has one beam shield...Anyway, since the mobile suits of F-91 are smaller than those of CCA, it's very reasonable to assume that the technology of beam cannons has advanced in the size of a cannon. As in, the beam cannons utilize more advanced technology in order to make them smaller, but in exchange for being smaller, the power of the cannon isn't much/any greater than suits from CCA.

[SNT1]

Did I say that? No. Did I say he ever have a beam shield to shoot through? No. But I did say that the kind of beam cannon the Sazabi has been proven to punch through beam shileds. (see the F-91 movie)

So are you saying Sazabi's cannon can punch through a beam shield 30 years advanced? You said:


Okay, you really need to read people's posts better and stop putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say the beam shield failed in GSD? No, but then again he didn't go against any beam spray cannons in GSD, did he? The beam shield would fail against a more concentrated shot from the Sazabis beam spray cannon. This has been proven in F-91.

right here, you indirectly assumed that GSD beam shield = F91 beam shield, cause you said they both fail when something like a saz beam cannon hits it.

So unless Saz CAN punch through a beam shield that is 30 years more advanced then I drop the argument...

The very fact that beam shields exist a mere 2 years after the development of mobile suits in CE, suggests quite strongly that the beam shields of CE aren't as good as the ones in UC, since UC took its time and developed beam shields over the span of 50 years in comparison to CE's 2 years.

CE is not UC. Not CE's fault they figured out beam shields faster than they did in UC. Main character went from strike -> strike freedom in a span of 2 years, and wasnt akatsuki built during the first SEED series? yet AK is comparable to Nu, even often called a hack? CE just progressed through technology faster.

What do you mean "ten beam shield"? I-J has one beam shield..

then**... typo

.Anyway, since the mobile suits of F-91 are smaller than those of CCA, it's very reasonable to assume that the technology of beam cannons has advanced in the size of a cannon. As in, the beam cannons utilize more advanced technology in order to make them smaller, but in exchange for being smaller, the power of the cannon isn't much/any greater than suits from CCA.

but thats still just an assumption. If you BELIEVE that Sazabi can puncture an F91 shield then I drop the argument

[Ichimaru]

whoever says IJ cant keep up with the sazabi is bs, IJ kept up and also dogdge destiny WOL in a fight.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

whoever says IJ cant keep up with the sazabi is bs, IJ kept up and also dogdge destiny WOL in a fight.

I finally finished watching CCA a few minutes ago. And I don't think IJ would have trouble keeping up with Sazabi in terms of both maneuverability and speed. The only problem I can see IJ having trouble with are the funnels. But if IJ can finish them off, maybe using METEOR, then Athrun in IJ would have a greater chance of winning against Char in Sazabi.

[Schneizel]

Thank god Char is winning...

[Ranko]

Beam weapons by the time CCA are so powerful that MS's must be quick and not use heavy armour to protect them with only a minor amount of armour to protect a few vital areas. In SEED they still use heavy armour to portect the mecha they also don't have Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactors.

Every mech in UC from Gundam on is equiped with a Fusion system, and that means that they have a good 3 times the output of and of the Fission based Mecha in CE. Keeping in mind the key advantage of the Freedom/Justice types is their Fission powerplants when most all their foes are battery powered. Were in UC everyone and their dog has a Fussion plant

So i'd have to say Char as he simply has more EXP and is on a completely diffrent level than Athrun, having been in a good 4-6 diffrent WARS.

[tragicsmile]

Do they even have the Minovsky particles in C.E. to explain why they don't just use long-range missiles and be done with it?

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by Ranko

Beam weapons by the time CCA are so powerful that MS's must be quick and not use heavy armour to protect them with only a minor amount of armour to protect a few vital areas. In SEED they still use heavy armour to portect the mecha they also don't have Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactors.

Every mech in UC from Gundam on is equiped with a Fusion system, and that means that they have a good 3 times the output of and of the Fission based Mecha in CE. Keeping in mind the key advantage of the Freedom/Justice types is their Fission powerplants when most all their foes are battery powered. Were in UC everyone and their dog has a Fussion plant

So i'd have to say Char as he simply has more EXP and is on a completely diffrent level than Athrun, having been in a good 4-6 diffrent WARS.

Good point Ranko. That is one of many reason why the grunts in the CE are crap and the name characters have a easier time taking them down.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

So are you saying Sazabi's cannon can punch through a beam shield 30 years advanced? You said:


Okay, you really need to read people's posts better and stop putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say the beam shield failed in GSD? No, but then again he didn't go against any beam spray cannons in GSD, did he? The beam shield would fail against a more concentrated shot from the Sazabis beam spray cannon. This has been proven in F-91.

right here, you indirectly assumed that GSD beam shield = F91 beam shield, cause you said they both fail when something like a saz beam cannon hits it.

So unless Saz CAN punch through a beam shield that is 30 years more advanced then I drop the argument...

....errr, I really doubt that GSD beam shield is better than F-91 beam shields, that would be Fukuda god-moding if it were true, and it wouldn't apply in this debate. So yes, I'm saying GSD beam shield is equal to or less than F-91 beam shield. It took UC 50 50 years to make the beam shield, and CE 2 years. That alone is stupid.

Originally Posted by SNT1

CE is not UC. Not CE's fault they figured out beam shields faster than they did in UC. Main character went from strike -> strike freedom in a span of 2 years, and wasnt akatsuki built during the first SEED series? yet AK is comparable to Nu, even often called a hack? CE just progressed through technology faster.

Actually, it's pretty danged stupid that they have such advanaced technology so freaking fast. But I never said anybody was to blame for anything. It is stupid, though.

Originally Posted by SNT1

but thats still just an assumption. If you BELIEVE that Sazabi can puncture an F91 shield then I drop the argument

I do believe so, since it's extremely doubtul that what took CE 2 years can be superior to what UC took 50 years to develop, and a UC beam shield in F-91 can be breached by several shots from a battleship beam cannon or a heavy beam cannon from a mobile suit.

Of course, to be fair, the Destiny did block a heavy beam cannon shot from the Destroy with its bam shield in episode 38. But, this everyone agrees that the Destroy's got Fukuda-nerfed into grunts in that episode so they would lose to ZAFT, so taking out the god-mods and plot-devices, CE beam shields can't be stronger than UC beam shields.

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

Do they even have the Minovsky particles in C.E. to explain why they don't just use long-range missiles and be done with it?

No not really, they just write it off as heavy radar jamming.

[NeonZ]

Originally Posted by Ranko

Beam weapons by the time CCA are so powerful that MS's must be quick and not use heavy armour to protect them with only a minor amount of armour to protect a few vital areas. In SEED they still use heavy armour to portect the mecha they also don't have Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactors.

Every mech in UC from Gundam on is equiped with a Fusion system, and that means that they have a good 3 times the output of and of the Fission based Mecha in CE. Keeping in mind the key advantage of the Freedom/Justice types is their Fission powerplants when most all their foes are battery powered. Were in UC everyone and their dog has a Fussion plant

That's what should happen.

However, SEED has crazy technological jumps with each new generation of MS... Sazabi's reactor has a output of 3.960kw... The original Justice has a reactor with output of 8.826kw(Of course, much of that power is wasted powering up the Phase Shift)...

I'd also like to note that, in CCA, they haven't really dropped armor. The Sazabi, is as heavy as a SEED Gundam. There are efforts to drop the armor, like the Zeta, Nu and most Fed grunts, but it's not nearly as significant as what would happen later on, with the F91 series.

[SNT1]

well, I guess I cant't argue anything at this point when the pro-chars believe CE technology is a fukuda god-moded plot shield now couldnt I?

Every mech in UC from Gundam on is equiped with a Fusion system, and that means that they have a good 3 times the output of and of the Fission based Mecha in CE. Keeping in mind the key advantage of the Freedom/Justice types is their Fission powerplants when most all their foes are battery powered. Were in UC everyone and their dog has a Fussion plant

thats like arguing Wing Zero is 10 times faster than IJ and Saz, since its 10 times lighter :-P I try to base and judge performance by what I see on the show...

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by SNT1

well, I guess I cant't argue anything at this point when the pro-chars believe CE technology is a fukuda god-moded plot shield now couldnt I?

It pretty much is when you have advancements in technology with little to no explanation on their advanced speed. Heck, having another war only two years after a past one is just plain ridiculous in itself also.

thats like arguing Wing Zero is 10 times faster than IJ and Saz, since its 10 times lighter :-P I try to base and judge performance by what I see on the show...

Not really. The person does make a point that the energy source for Sazabi would be superior especially when it remains that every MS in UC has it while in CE only such a few amoutn of MS have a nuclear fission power source at all.

[monster]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

It pretty much is when you have advancements in technology with little to no explanation on their advanced speed. Heck, having another war only two years after a past one is just plain ridiculous in itself also.

Ridiculous or not, that is what is shown. Why would you not take into account everything that Athrun has while you take into account everything that Char has? Heck, you can say Athrun in a DINN can beat the Wing boys if you don't take into account their gundanium armors.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by monstert

Ridiculous or not, that is what is shown. Why would you not take into account everything that Athrun has while you take into account everything that Char has? Heck, you can say Athrun in a DINN can beat the Wing boys if you don't take into account their gundanium armors.

I have taken into account what Athrun has done which pretty much still in the end amounts to him being a predictable, most of the time indecisive, and straightforward individual. His level of tactical thinking isn't much to talk about and that you still have the situation of him only seeming to be useful when it comes to using a Gundam, especially one that has a nuclear power source. So how exactly have not taken into account what Athrun has? Since anyone that actually does would remember the fact that you still have the situation in which you have illogical occurences that defy even basic logic.

I of course don't actually hate Athrun. He at least is one of the few semibearable characters that I can stand but it still remains that his combat ability like so much of the others throughout the bulk of the show only gives off trying to come off cool rather than actually thought out.

[SNT1]

I have taken into account what Athrun has done which pretty much still in the end amounts to him being a predictable, most of the time indecisive, and straightforward individual.

I believe the conditions on the matchup was that Athrun had a made up mind and determination, along with a SEED mode

His level of tactical thinking isn't much to talk about and that you still have the situation of him only seeming to be useful when it comes to using a Gundam, especially one that has a nuclear power source.

so, we need tactics to take Shinn down now? He can play Shinn on his own game and win, so why not?

Ridiculous or not, that is what is shown. Why would you not take into account everything that Athrun has while you take into account everything that Char has? Heck, you can say Athrun in a DINN can beat the Wing boys if you don't take into account their gundanium armors.

I was just about to say that if CE technology progressed too fast compared to UC, thats too bad. Why is it stupid? I sense CE hatred rather than a real reason as to why its stupid...

It pretty much is when you have advancements in technology with little to no explanation on their advanced speed.

again, too bad. I mean, how did tallgeese become such a superior MS in early wing, despite being 20 years older in design? How did RX-78 go from uber advanced leet to pretty gimped in 1 year?

Iunno, in CE maybe they have coordinators with h4x skillz like Kira and learn much faster than the naturals of UC.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by SNT1

I believe the conditions on the matchup was that Athrun had a made up mind and determination, along with a SEED mode

A SEED mode that still doesn't equate to meaning an increase in overall tactical ability.

so, we need tactics to take Shinn down now? He can play Shinn on his own game and win, so why not?

On Shin's own game how? Cause I don't remember Athrun really doing anything tactical up to the level of Shinn and Rey planning how to bring down Freedom. Much less how odd it is that Shinn and Rey don't make usage of the process that brought success at all when faced with two enemy MS of the same or higher level ability to that of Freedom.

I was just about to say that if CE technology progressed too fast compared to UC, thats too bad. Why is it stupid? I sense CE hatred rather than a real reason as to why its stupid...

It's stupid in the fact that you have a progession of technology that still has no real explanation behind it. We have beam shields and other things that just simply come from out of nowhere.

again, too bad. I mean, how did tallgeese become such a superior MS in early wing, despite being 20 years older in design? How did RX-78 go from uber advanced leet to pretty gimped in 1 year?

Iunno, in CE maybe they have coordinators with h4x skillz like Kira and learn much faster than the naturals of UC.

The thing with the Tallgese was actually a matter of it being the original design that all MS are based on within GW. And what exactly do you mean by gimped? Cause it remains that what we have with the RX-78 was simply a matter of it needing to be upgraded for Amuro's newfound newtype reflexes and that the RX-78 was also explained to be responsible for the sudden increase in MS development by the Zeon as a response to its existence. Still things that had explanation behind their circumstances while the beam shields in CE just came out of nowhere with no explanation nor any reactions in terms of how strangely new the weaponry is when introduced to the battlefield.

And the last time I checked there weren't many ultimate coordinators to speak of in CE.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

so, we need tactics to take Shinn down now? He can play Shinn on his own game and win, so why not?

Yes we should, but thanks to Fukuda plot-devicing goodness Athrun never had to. Thus we still have yet to see Athrun use any real MS tactics and skills. Sure Strike vs Aegis looked cool, but if you want to break it down, it just amounted to Kira and Athrun whacking at each other.

Originally Posted by SNT1

I was just about to say that if CE technology progressed too fast compared to UC, thats too bad. Why is it stupid? I sense CE hatred rather than a real reason as to why its stupid...

Dude, we have plenty of reason for why it's stupid. We shouldn't have to describe why it's stupid because it should be so obvious. It took ZAFT most of the first war to develop beam weapons for their MS, and that was because they got the beam weapon technology from the Gundams they stole from the EA. Than two years later, they's already got something as advanced as beam shields? Come on, does this really require any thinking ability to realize why it's so stupid?

Originally Posted by SNT1

again, too bad. I mean, how did tallgeese become such a superior MS in early wing, despite being 20 years older in design? How did RX-78 go from uber advanced leet to pretty gimped in 1 year?

....errr, none of the above even begins to compare to the ridiculousness of developing such advanced technology in a mere 2 years in CE when it took 50 years in UC...

Originally Posted by SNT1

Iunno, in CE maybe they have coordinators with h4x skillz like Kira and learn much faster than the naturals of UC.

Err, the EA developed beam shields before ZAFT (Zamzazar)...which would somehow make Naturals, normal human beings, many times smarter than both Coordinators and normal humans of UC?... *barf*