One Piece - Chapter 579 (manga)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Coby's not so much of a coward as an idiot. The rules of war makes it clear that losses while tragic are necessary, and if you can prevent more loses by quickly defeating an enemy than you must push on.

There's necessary losses and then there's needless sacrifices. This is the latter. Imagine if another warlord besides Shanks had shown up with decidedly less noble intentions. The Marines would get trounced. They're throwing away lives to win a battle, when doing so will lose them the war.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Oda really comes off as naive, and not understanding warfare in this chapter. Though I am suprised at the number of people who also don't understand warfare as well. I mean am I the only one whose studied history? As I already mentioned the Civil War shows us that war favors the bold. Compare MCclellan's campaign with Grant's campaigns.

Fortune favors the bold, not the stupid. This mindless dedication to exterminating the enemy is not good warfare, it's just violence.

[paradox13]

What are you talking about? How is killing a retreating enemy with low morale immoral?

THIS IS WAR NOT A TEAPARTY!

If you don't want to kill people why the hell would you become a marine?

By destroying the enemy know, you can end the war and prevent anymore casualities, can you imagine how many lives could have been saved if the Union Generals where as bold as the confederate Generals. If Mcclellan had pushed Lee's army after Antiem than the war would have been over at least two years earlier.

Sigh, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.


What Coby is saying is that, since the battle is already won, what is the point of pursuing the retreating pirates? The cost of doing so is too high. And that is just common sense isn't it? It isn't even about morality; sacrificing your soldiers to kill a few more enemies, despite having accomplished your objectives (aside from BB but he is being dealt with by Sengoku and Garp) is just stupid as cornered enemies fight harder then anyone. A military strategist has to know when to retreat and tend to your wounds, when to pursue and when to strike.

Also concerning morality: Defeating an enemy is important, but the marines represent the world. Morality should be number 1 priority to them; heck, the kanji on the back of their coats even denote 'justice'. How the fuck is summary execution of pirates without trial 'just'? It is all very hypocritical.

As I already mentioned the Civil War shows us that war favors the bold. Compare MCclellan's campaign with Grant's campaigns.

You're pretty stupid, and frankly from your posts, you come off as a bit of an extremist.

I can argue history with you if you want to, but do you really want to do that? You keep using that single example to illustrate your point. How about Napoleon's invasion of Russia? Yes Napoleon's Grande Army won a few major battles, but he did not know when to retreat. A pursuit of the Russians all the way to Moscow was to be the beginning of the end for Napoleon. One of his only, albeit major, tactical blunders would cost him his throne, and ultimately, France's status as a superpower.

I don't know why you are discounting morality from all this. Do you really believe that 'all is fair in love and war'?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Sigh, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.


What Coby is saying is that, since the battle is already won, what is the point of pursuing the retreating pirates? The cost of doing so is too high. And that is just common sense isn't it? It isn't even about morality; sacrificing your soldiers to kill a few more enemies, despite having accomplished your objectives (aside from BB but he is being dealt with by Sengoku and Garp) is just stupid as cornered enemies fight harder then anyone. A military strategist has to know when to retreat and tend to your wounds, when to pursue and when to strike.

Also concerning morality: Defeating an enemy is important, but the marines represent the world. Morality should be number 1 priority to them; heck, the kanji on the back of their coats even denote 'justice'. How the fuck is summary execution of pirates without trial 'just'? It is all very hypocritical.



You're pretty stupid, and frankly from your posts, you come off as a bit of an extremist.

I can argue history with you if you want to, but do you really want to do that? You keep using that single example to illustrate your point. How about Napoleon's invasion of Russia? Yes Napoleon's Grande Army won a few major battles, but he did not know when to retreat. A pursuit of the Russians all the way to Moscow was to be the beginning of the end for Napoleon. One of his only, albeit major, tactical blunders would cost him his throne, and ultimately, France's status as a superpower.

I don't know why you are discounting morality from all this. Do you really believe that 'all is fair in love and war'?

warfare can't afford morality.

in war everything is fair.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the marnies lost big chunk of grunts, easily replaceable. the main force of admirals and vice admirals are still intact.

Replaceable in time.

But now, grunts are falling just as they destroy grunt WB pirates, and other pirates are still going to Marineford. Can the Marines hold out as waves and waves of pirates go against them? The admirals aren't also immortals. They are strong but they still can be exhausted.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The rules of war makes it clear that losses while tragic are necessary, and if you can prevent more loses by quickly defeating an enemy than you must push on.

Which they can't prevent more loses, since other pirates are now going to Marineford to take part in this war. If it's against WB pirates, they have a chance. But Blackbeard, and now Shanks is also here; there is possibility that another set of pirates (can be an emperor) are on the way to take advantage of this.

[paradox13]

warfare can't afford morality.

in war everything is fair.

Then why were the Geneva Conventions drafted up? What are war crimes and crimes against humanity? What is the meaning of justice if the actions of the 'just' are the same as those of the 'injust'?

Besides, I think there is a line that separates 'warfare' (for example, the Battle of Trebia) and massacre (the Battle of Omdurman). Fighting with your all is fair; killing helpless enemies after victory is assured is not and is paramount to cold blooded murder.

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Coby's not so much of a coward as an idiot.

Then why did you call him a coward...?
I think I'll make a ordered retreat from the argument here...since it seems you are unfaltering in your opinion (which you are welcome to).

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Sigh, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.


What Coby is saying is that, since the battle is already won, what is the point of pursuing the retreating pirates? The cost of doing so is too high. And that is just common sense isn't it? It isn't even about morality; sacrificing your soldiers to kill a few more enemies, despite having accomplished your objectives (aside from BB but he is being dealt with by Sengoku and Garp) is just stupid as cornered enemies fight harder then anyone. A military strategist has to know when to retreat and tend to your wounds, when to pursue and when to strike.

Also concerning morality: Defeating an enemy is important, but the marines represent the world. Morality should be number 1 priority to them; heck, the kanji on the back of their coats even denote 'justice'. How the fuck is summary execution of pirates without trial 'just'? It is all very hypocritical.



You're pretty stupid, and frankly from your posts, you come off as a bit of an extremist.

I can argue history with you if you want to, but do you really want to do that? You keep using that single example to illustrate your point. How about Napoleon's invasion of Russia? Yes Napoleon's Grande Army won a few major battles, but he did not know when to retreat. A pursuit of the Russians all the way to Moscow was to be the beginning of the end for Napoleon. One of his only, albeit major, tactical blunders would cost him his throne, and ultimately, France's status as a superpower.

I don't know why you are discounting morality from all this. Do you really believe that 'all is fair in love and war'?

Armies with low morale that are trying to escape make easy pickings, and I have already mentioned that the Marines need to give them an out so they can escape, and not fight to the death.

While a military should have some morality, it's also important that somethimes you need to do something horrible. The atomic bombs saved millions of lives, and probably tens of millions of lives as it was clear that Japan's leadership was to dangerous to allow. It was also a clear attack on two civilian targets that killed hundreds of thousangs of people. If the United States had decided to do the morale thing and invade then millions would have died on both sides with the losses on the Japanese side being catastrophic.

What the hell does Napolean have to do with this chapter?

Is some massive Winter coming in? Are the marines ill equiped for the winter? Is the Russian army going to show up? With the knowledge they had at the time (they didn't know Shanks had stopped fighting Kaidou) they where perfectly fine.

I am not saying they should take on Shanks and the Whitebeard Pirates, frankly if Shanks attacks them I see no way the Marines can survive.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Then why were the Geneva Conventions drafted up? What are war crimes and crimes against humanity? What is the meaning of justice if the actions of the 'just' are the same as those of the 'injust'?

the geneva conventions were drafted by a bunch of ideological and naive fools. Since its ratification i seriously doubt any country has paid anything more then lip service to it.

[paradox13]

While a military should have some morality, it's also important that somethimes you need to do something horrible. The atomic bombs saved millions of lives, and probably tens of millions of lives as it was clear that Japan's leadership was to dangerous to allow. It was also a clear attack on two civilian targets that killed hundreds of thousangs of people. If the United States had decided to do the morale thing and invade then millions would have died on both sides with the losses on the Japanese side being catastrophic.

You argue that dropping the atomic bombs was the moral thing to do. Your point of view is reasonable enough, but its not as clear cut as that. In fact, there is still a lot of controversy over the whole issue, with many people arguing that it was unjustified and that Japan would have surrendered anyway.

Besides, the horror of dropping the atomic bomb was so great that nuclear weapons have not been used since Nagasaki.

Again, warfare is not the same as massacre. I hope you realize the distinction.

the geneva conventions were drafted by a bunch of ideological and naive fools. Since its ratification i seriously doubt any country has paid anything more then lip service to it.

And if people paid more then just lip service to it, I think we would all agree that the world would be a much better place.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by paradox13

And if people paid more then just lip service to it, I think we would all agree that the world would be a much better place.

when hell freezes over.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Armies with low morale that are trying to escape make easy pickings, and I have already mentioned that the Marines need to give them an out so they can escape, and not fight to the death.

But the Marines aren't doing that. They're backing an enemy into a corner for no reason save the lust for battle and insane need to eliminate "evil". This isn't a war anymore. It's a bar brawl on an epic scale.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

While a military should have some morality, it's also important that somethimes you need to do something horrible. The atomic bombs saved millions of lives, and probably tens of millions of lives as it was clear that Japan's leadership was to dangerous to allow. It was also a clear attack on two civilian targets that killed hundreds of thousangs of people. If the United States had decided to do the morale thing and invade then millions would have died on both sides with the losses on the Japanese side being catastrophic.

This hardly compares to the situation with the Marines and pirates. Japan would never have given up otherwise. The Whitebeard pirates are already trying to escape. They're attacking a retreating force at significant cost to their own troops, and it will bite them.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

What the hell does Napolean have to do with this chapter?

Is some massive Winter coming in? Are the marines ill equiped for the winter? Is the Russian army going to show up? With the knowledge they had at the time (they didn't know Shanks had stopped fighting Kaidou) they where perfectly fine.

The point is that they don't know when to stop. They're burning up likely thousands of troops trying to kill the stragglers, and as demonstrated with Shanks people can and will take advantage of that. Just as an real-world army would not pursue a retreating enemy no matter the cost, the Marines here are too stupid to realize they're bleeding men at an alarming rate.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I am not saying they should take on Shanks and the Whitebeard Pirates, frankly if Shanks attacks them I see no way the Marines can survive.

Which is pretty much the point. In their aggressive pursuit of "evil", they've put themselves in an unwinnable situation.

[Prestige]

This war might result victory for the Marines but the cost is...terrible, almost unbearable. Entire Marineford is pretty much leveled to ground and marines have lost entire fleets of battle-ships, when Blackbeard quaked island and sea in this chapter there is atleast 10 battleships sinking and falling.

Coby,Smoker,Hina and other 'true' marines are seeing madness of all this but when they try to help the injured they are just shot down by superior officers who are hellbent of pursuing their 'Absolute Justice', even if it will cost the lifes of every single marine at Marineford.

I really wonder what will happen with marines after this, I am not sure can Akainu and vice-admirals and Garp,Smoker and Coby work together after this incident.

Shanks came to put an end to this madness but will Akainu stop? Will Blackbeard stop? He is feeling supreme and everyone is his enemys so he will keep rampaging.

Well Luffy finally out of this war, just barely alive. With Law gone there went last minor chance for 'resurrecting Ace' but we all knew that he died for good. I think we will see 1-3 chapters of this arc, all major charecters are now dead or injured and only real issues are rampaging Blackbeard and bloodlusted marines, can they be stopped and how?

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But the Marines aren't doing that. They're backing an enemy into a corner for no reason save the lust for battle and insane need to eliminate "evil". This isn't a war anymore. It's a bar brawl on an epic scale.

This hardly compares to the situation with the Marines and pirates. Japan would never have given up otherwise. The Whitebeard pirates are already trying to escape. They're attacking a retreating force at significant cost to their own troops, and it will bite them.

The point is that they don't know when to stop. They're burning up likely thousands of troops trying to kill the stragglers, and as demonstrated with Shanks people can and will take advantage of that. Just as an real-world army would not pursue a retreating enemy no matter the cost, the Marines here are too stupid to realize they're bleeding men at an alarming rate.

Which is pretty much the point. In their aggressive pursuit of "evil", they've put themselves in an unwinnable situation.

This was a bar brawl from the start, at no point in time did anyone actually try to use formations or any military strategy. As for losses, frankly the normal marines have shown themselves to be complete failiures. As long as the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals are fine than the biggest lost was the fortress.

Destroying one of the Emperors would have been a massive PR boost with tens of thousands of new recruits, with possibly 100 thounsands of new recruits. With the death of the Whitbeard Pirates than people might see hope that the chaos will end.

[Prestige]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

This was a bar brawl from the start, at no point in time did anyone actually try to use formations or any military strategy. As for losses, frankly the normal marines have shown themselves to be complete failiures. As long as the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals are fine than the biggest lost was the fortress.

Marines had a strategy, it was a brilliant one with using Siege walls, aokiji freezing the bay offering pirates a a ground and trapping ships at same time, then walls arise and marines and Akainu would be able to massacre trapped pirates with impunity.

But it failed because unpredictable assault of Oars and him actually leaving a small hole to the siege wall.

It was very clever strategy and Akainu even throwing mistrust with pirates with his plot but it failed because Oars insane rush could not be predicted.

Destroying one of the Emperors would have been a massive PR boost with tens of thousands of new recruits, with possibly 100 thounsands of new recruits. With the death of the Whitbeard Pirates than people might see hope that the chaos will end.

Just like public execution of Pirate King 20 years ago was a PR boost? It supposed to demonstrate WG's power over pirates but instead it backfired and created a Grand Age of Piracy instead.

Whitebeard's death was supposed to kept hidden from public but marines brutal tactics were shown to world and Whitebeard yelling 'One Piece EXCISTS' send yet another message to the world and inspiring entire new generation of pirates.

Marineford, the center of Justice has been destroyed and most of the pirates will be able to escape. They got Ace killed and Blackbeard killed Whitebeard but I would not consider this a great PR victory for marines, not anymore.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

This was a bar brawl from the start, at no point in time did anyone actually try to use formations or any military strategy. As for losses, frankly the normal marines have shown themselves to be complete failiures. As long as the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals are fine than the biggest lost was the fortress.

Both Sengoku and Whitebeard do use a bear minimum of strategy in dealing with each other. As for the losses, it would not be ok for just a few Admirals and Vice-Admirals to be running around. They can't patrol the entire ocean.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Destroying one of the Emperors would have been a massive PR boost with tens of thousands of new recruits, with possibly 100 thounsands of new recruits. With the death of the Whitbeard Pirates than people might see hope that the chaos will end.

What good are new recruits against an existing and experienced pirate force that could (and in a way is) bearing down on them right now? Sacrificing trained soldiers just because you might make that number back in recruits is idiotic.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Both Sengoku and Whitebeard do use a bear minimum of strategy in dealing with each other. As for the losses, it would not be ok for just a few Admirals and Vice-Admirals to be running around. They can't patrol the entire ocean.

What good are new recruits against an existing and experienced pirate force that could (and in a way is) bearing down on them right now? Sacrificing trained soldiers just because you might make that number back in recruits is idiotic.

Which is kind of a problem if your the head of the military of your world. I think Oda is actually deconstructing Authority Equals Asskicking where puting your best fighters on top instead of your best Admirals causes you army to be poorly trained.

Let's be blunt, the losses suffered from the Marines where a bunch of no name fighters that had no chance to stop the Emperors or any powerful pirates. I doubt they could defeat Arlong.

Personally I feel that the World Goverment is screwed anyway.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Which is kind of a problem if your the head of the military of your world. I think Oda is actually deconstructing Authority Equals Asskicking where puting your best fighters on top instead of your best Admirals causes you army to be poorly trained.

Let's be blunt, the losses suffered from the Marines where a bunch of no name fighters that had no chance to stop the Emperors or any powerful pirates. I doubt they could defeat Arlong.

Probably not, but it would better to have these (still living) people out on ships blasting pirates than it is for them to be massacred in a single battle they can't even really contribute to.

[paradox13]

bunch of no name fighters

John Giant?

Vice Admiral Komir?

[james0246]

LOL, why is everyone so serious. This is One Piece, not War and Peace ...God that was a bad joke...

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by paradox13

John Giant?

Vice Admiral Komir?

John Giant lost in one hit.

Komir? I didn't even know who you are talking about so I had t look it up.

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Komir

Yes, the lost of a true cofee lover will be sorely missed. Who will drink the cofee now?