The 2009 Re-Launch of Haruhi Suzumiya (General Discussion)

[Stormwhite]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The minute Kyon finally confesses to Haruhi, I'd bet money that she'd immediately become submissive and deredere around him like 70% of the time.

Kyon will never confess to Haruhi, except maybe to save the world. If either of them is going to confess, it'll be Haruhi.

And if you think about it, who would be more FUN to be with? Haruhi, Yuki or Mikuru? You can't tell me that you'd find hanging out with Yuki and Mikuru more fun :P

[Akka]

Yuki is a geek. She can understand what is a ménage à trois with a computer. And she doesn't induce the urge to slam her head against a wall every five minutes.
She definitely gets my vote against Haruhi.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Triple R, you can't honestly tell me you don't see the problem with behavior like this...

quigonkenny, I never said that Haruhi's behavior was flawless. Quite the contrary - I've frequently said that she does go too far sometimes. In the 2009 Episode 13 thread, I was very critical of Haruhi's actions there.

Haruhi's not perfect... but nor is Nagato, and nor is Tsuruya. Tsuruya was quite cheerfully going along with Haruhi's plan to spike Mikuru's drink, and 'drug her', as Kyon put it... and Tsuruya was right there, smiling, while Haruhi bopped Mikuru over and over on the head with her megaphone, and Kyon slowly got more and more enraged.

Nagato is admirably loyal to the people she cares about, very competent, and relaxing to be around. But on the flip side, she could be a very tough person to truly bond with, and she's certainly not very emotionally expressive. The fact that she never smiles would be very depressing to me if she was a close friend or girlfriend.

All of the characters of this anime have their pros and cons; Haruhi is not unique in that regard.

Sure she's domineering, and take charge. The people that I've had the most fun in life being around are also domineering, and take charge - it can be a positive as well as a negative. Haruhi has incredible stores of raw expressive energy, and she throws it all out. I'd personally rather have the challenge of trying to help a friend/girlfriend in learning how to effectively channel her creativity and drive and passion than in trying to get a friend/girlfriend to express herself more. It's been my experience in life that the former is much easier than the latter. You can teach refinement; it's much harder to get people to come out of their shells.

And Haruhi, I think, is open to refinement. Kyon, to his credit, came up with a very smart way to get her to end her movie while still ensuring that the division between reality and fantasy was maintained within Haruhi's own mind. He persuaded Haruhi to voice-over those advisories and reminders of "Everything in this movie is fictional, none of its based on real people, etc...".


Finally... in almost every scene that I've seen Haruhi in where she's talking to adults, she maintains incredibly good manners and respectfulness. She also tends to be eloquent and well-spoken here. That, to me, tells me she's likely to grow into a strong, confidant young woman who knows how to properly carry herself in a formalized adult world... but who will also continue to be a fun blast to be around once she's on her own time.

It's not that I don't like Haruhi. She certainly has her fine moments. But the detrimental effect of her domineering attitude isn't just my opinion.

It has a detrimental effect, sure. It also has a positive effect. It makes Haruhi's school a lot more exciting and colorful. It is a catalyst for excellent creativity and expressiveness.

EDIT: And regarding the Haruhi vs Yuki argument... Looks like that one's been settled for this year...

What's "saimoe", exactly?

In any event, perhaps Haruhi's popularity has fallen, in fairness. Arguably weak DVD sales would seem to imply that. The 3-year layoff (as far as novel-based anime content is concerned) probably hasn't helped her. Plus, Sighs is Haruhi at her worst, and that was shown very recently.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nagato is admirably loyal to the people she cares about, very competent, and relaxing to be around. But on the flip side, she could be a very tough person to truly bond with, and she's certainly not very emotionally expressive. The fact that she never smiles would be very depressing to me if she was a close friend or girlfriend.

The solution to that one is simple: Explain how being expressive helps those around her understand what she's thinking. The only reason it hasn't happened in the series is because Haruhi generally ignores her, Mikuru's afraid of her, Koizumi never talks with her, Tsuruya probably finds it hilarious, and Kyon seems to like things the way they are. Anyone else doesn't know her well enough to notice.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

The solution to that one is simple: Explain how being expressive helps those around her understand what she's thinking. The only reason it hasn't happened in the series is because Haruhi generally ignores her, Mikuru's afraid of her, Koizumi never talks with her, Tsuruya probably finds it hilarious, and Kyon seems to like things the way they are. Anyone else doesn't know her well enough to notice.

I don't know. You could be right; it's a very clever thought on your part, at least. However, I'm not sure if Nagato has it in her to smile. From Asakura's example, she must know that smiling a lot can be appealing to other people. Perhaps Nagato wants to draw as little attention as possible, and hence purposely never smiles (since smiling a lot helped Asakura).

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Asakura's purpose was to get people to like her, and thus, she has knowledge of how to go about it. Nagato's purpose was observation, so that sort of information could potentially prove to be detrimental.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Asakura's purpose was to get people to like her, and thus, she has knowledge of how to go about it. Nagato's purpose was observation, so that sort of information could potentially prove to be detrimental.

Now that's a fascinating thought. Nagato being purposely kept in the dark when it comes to making herself seem visually appealing. It would help to explain why she wears her student uniform so much...

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What's "saimoe", exactly?

Saimoe's just a popularity contest between female anime characters. Dunno what 'sai' means, though 'moe' is obvious. It's one of the biggest events in the anime community with each round getting thousands or tens of thousands of votes, though I haven't ever really paid it any attention. I'm guessing it's a fun little event, though. I should've been around for the 2005 tournament, Nanoha Takamachi won that one. The Haruhi franchise hasn't ever done all that well, strangely enough; Yuki finished the 2006 Saimoe in sixth place, but that's the only time Haruhi's ever placed in the top eight. I'm guessing that anti-votes have something to do with that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Saimoe's just a popularity contest between female anime characters. Dunno what 'sai' means, though 'moe' is obvious. It's one of the biggest events in the anime community with each round getting thousands or tens of thousands of votes, though I haven't ever really paid it any attention. I'm guessing it's a fun little event, though. I should've been around for the 2005 tournament, Nanoha Takamachi won that one. The Haruhi franchise hasn't ever done all that well, strangely enough; Yuki finished the 2006 Saimoe in sixth place, but that's the only time Haruhi's ever placed in the top eight. I'm guessing that anti-votes have something to do with that.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.

I agree on the "anti-votes" factor. That very real possibility makes it less valuable as a measure of popularity, imo. A lot of people could be voting for Nagato simply to stop Haruhi from winning; people who don't particularly care much about Nagato either way. Often, the most popular characters also have a lot of people who can't stand them (partly because they're popular).

What I prefer about the method of the 2007 magazine results that I linked to is that you can't "vote against" characters there; you can only "vote for". Hence, this is a truer measure of popularity in my view.

Also, I find it interesting that the Haruhi franchise doesn't do well in the Saimoe contests. Considering how well the 2006 Haruhi DVDs did, this is another reason for me to be skeptical of how reflective the Saimoe contests are of true popularity.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now that's a fascinating thought. Nagato being purposely kept in the dark when it comes to making herself seem visually appealing. It would help to explain why she wears her student uniform so much...

In-story, yes. I suspect the uniform thing is largely an Eva reference, as with pretty much everything else about Nagato's appearance.

[Ithekro]

Well Haruhi properly has only been in one Saimow contest...in 2006. They were not able to participate in other years since it is for shows airs between July (X year) and June (X year + 1). Haruhi ended in June 2006 so it was in the 2006 Saimoe (which runs from July to late October/early November). This year the Haruhi-chan show was up for Saimoe 2009, and didn't do all that well, getting hit by split votes and anti-voting again...Haruhi vs. Yuki vs. Eruru.

However in both 2006 and 2009, Yuki beat Haruhi. In 2006 Yuki then beat Mikuru (in a vert weird match from my understanding since in Japan one votes my using a code and them typed text of a character and their series on 2ch. In that match just about every character in Haruhi was voted for, even though Yuki and Mikuru were the only actual contestants. Haruhi herself got I think 27 "legal" votes, and even the Cave Cricket got one "legal" vote)


Haruhi's record against Nagato Yuki in moe contests that I am aware of.

Saimoe 2006:
Third Round: 991-1112 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Korean Best 2006: (Third Place)
Quarterfinals: 617-605 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Korean Super Best 06-07: (Second Place)
Semifinals: 1161-1146 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2008 Regular Season: (3rd Seed)
Topaz 8: 219-395 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2008 Championship: (9th Place)
Winner Round 1: 562-593 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2009 Regular Season: (2nd Seed)
Diamond 9: 1752-1415 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2009 Championship: (in progress)
Winer Round 1: 1119-1429 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Saimoe 2009: (in progress)
Third Round: 149 (Haruhi)-397 (Yuki)-534 to Eruru (Utawarerumono)
(Series listed as Suzumiya Haruhi-chan no Yūutsu)

Korean Best Moe 2009: (in progress)
Round of 16: 1058-1698 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

So, with one exception for both, Haruhi only manages to barely take the lead when she comes out ahead, while Nagato completely trounces her when she wins?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well Haruhi properly has only been in one Saimow contest...in 2006. They were not able to participate in other years since it is for shows airs between July (X year) and June (X year + 1). Haruhi ended in June 2006 so it was in the 2006 Saimoe (which runs from July to late October/early November). This year the Haruhi-chan show was up for Saimoe 2009, and didn't do all that well, getting hit by split votes and anti-voting again...Haruhi vs. Yuki vs. Eruru.

However in both 2006 and 2009, Yuki beat Haruhi. In 2006 Yuki then beat Mikuru (in a vert weird match from my understanding since in Japan one votes my using a code and them typed text of a character and their series on 2ch. In that match just about every character in Haruhi was voted for, even though Yuki and Mikuru were the only actual contestants. Haruhi herself got I think 27 "legal" votes, and even the Cave Cricket got one "legal" vote)


Haruhi's record against Nagato Yuki in moe contests that I am aware of.

Saimoe 2006:
Third Round: 991-1112 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Korean Best 2006: (Third Place)
Quarterfinals: 617-605 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Korean Super Best 06-07: (Second Place)
Semifinals: 1161-1146 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2008 Regular Season: (3rd Seed)
Topaz 8: 219-395 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2008 Championship: (9th Place)
Winner Round 1: 562-593 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2009 Regular Season: (2nd Seed)
Diamond 9: 1752-1415 over Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

ISML 2009 Championship: (in progress)
Winer Round 1: 1119-1429 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Saimoe 2009: (in progress)
Third Round: 149 (Haruhi)-397 (Yuki)-534 to Eruru (Utawarerumono)
(Series listed as Suzumiya Haruhi-chan no Yūutsu)

Korean Best Moe 2009: (in progress)
Round of 16: 1058-1698 to Nagato Yuki (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu)

Well, the highest vote total that either character ever received (out of what you listed here) is Haruhi, with 1752. And that was this year, so... Looks like over 600 of Haruhi's voters decided to "stay home" for the Championship match against Nagato, while Nagato picked up 14 voters. Why those 600+ voters "stayed home"... who knows? Perhaps they were simply lacking internet access for some reason (?).

Really hard to think that Haruhi could lose over 600 supporters in the course of a few months.

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

So, with one exception for both, Haruhi only manages to barely take the lead when she comes out ahead, while Nagato completely trounces her when she wins?

1752 to 1415 is a definitive win, Kogetsu. It's hardly a "barely take the lead" win. Or... if you're going to take away the most definitive win for each, most of the contests are close; not just the ones that Haruhi wins.


But, again, I still find these contests quite dubious as true measures of popularity. I wouldn't care if my 10 favorite characters were in the top 10 spots; I'd still say that.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Nagato's wins:
991-1112, difference of 121.
219-395, difference of 176.
562-593, difference of 31. (the exception)
1119-1429, difference of 310
149-397, difference of 248.
1058-1698, difference of 640.

Haruhi's wins:
617-605, difference of 12.
1161-1146, difference of 15.
1752-1415, difference of 337. (the exception)

My statement is valid.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Nagato's wins:
991-1112, difference of 121.
219-395, difference of 176.
562-593, difference of 31. (the exception)
1119-1429, difference of 310
149-397, difference of 248.
1058-1698, difference of 640.

Haruhi's wins:
617-605, difference of 12.
1161-1146, difference of 15.
1752-1415, difference of 337. (the exception)

My statement is valid.

991-1112 is not a "complete trouncing". Nor is 1119-1429. It's definitive, but it's hardly a "complete trouncing", imo.

It's fair to say that Nagato's wins tend to be a bit more definitive than Haruhi's. That's as far as I would go, however.

[Kyanme]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

The solution to that one is simple: Explain how being expressive helps those around her understand what she's thinking. The only reason it hasn't happened in the series is because Haruhi generally ignores her, Mikuru's afraid of her, Koizumi never talks with her, Tsuruya probably finds it hilarious, and Kyon seems to like things the way they are. Anyone else doesn't know her well enough to notice.

Dunno if it means anything, but during Mysterique Sign, at least during the anime since the written story bored me... but anyways, Koizumi turns to Yuki and asks, "Isn't that right, Miss Nagato?"

Yuki stares ahead (which is away from him) for a second, then slowly turns and walks into the condo. Itsuki makes a slightly disappointed look and then follows her.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like in that scene in particular, he was trying to get her to speak up and join the conversation for once, and she ignored him. /shrug

[OkamiNoKaze]

The finals for this Saimoe thing, are double elimination, could see Haruhi make a comeback

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kyanme

Dunno if it means anything, but during Mysterique Sign, at least during the anime since the written story bored me... but anyways, Koizumi turns to Yuki and asks, "Isn't that right, Miss Nagato?"

Yuki stares ahead (which is away from him) for a second, then slowly turns and walks into the condo. Itsuki makes a slightly disappointed look and then follows her.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like in that scene in particular, he was trying to get her to speak up and join the conversation for once, and she ignored him. /shrug

Koizumi has also made remarks that suggest he's jealous of Kyon for his ability to actually interact with Nagato.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

In the case of Mysterique Sign, it's more that he figured out she set everything up by that point.

[Ithekro]

I'd point out something for the Diamond 9 match in 2009. This match happened during the Sigh arc in the anime. During the entire competition until the Diamond rounds (August), Yuki had lost a total of five matches. That is out of 54 matches. In the Diamond rounds she lost five matches out of nine. This is in a round robin setup of 64 contestants. Those involved with the contest are not sure why Yuki suddenly slipped after doing extremely well before that point. Some suspect it was Endless Eight fallout. Others expect tactical voting (not for Haruhi, but for other characters as the winner of the Diamond Rounds was a Rozen Maiden: Shinku who beat both Haruhi and Yuki back to back...Haruhi first, then Yuki).

In the Diamond Rounds, Yuki lost to:
Fuuko (Clannad) by 16 votes,
Suigintou (Rozen Maidens) by 188 votes,
Nagi (Hayate the Combat Butler) by 27 votes,
Shinku (Rozen Maidens) by 116 votes,
Haruhi (Suzumiya Haruhi no Yūutsu) by 337 votes.


Previous to this Yuki had lost to the following:
Suiseiseki (Rozen Maidens) by 107 votes,
Shana (Shakugan no Shana) by 588 votes,
Fate (Mahō Shōjo Lyrical Nanoha) by 305 votes,
Kotomi (Clannad) by 53 votes,
Kyou (Clannad) by 78 votes.

Most of these loses were during the last match of any partular period so there was a title on the line. Yuki won one of the titles. (Haruhi won none 2009, but won two in 2008)

A note on Haruhi is this same tournament. She lost only four times (well five now with her double elimination loss to Yuki), She lost to Taiga (Toradora), Tomoyo (Clannad), Shana (Shakugan no Shana), and Shinku (Rozen Maidens), going 44 straight wins until losing to Tomoyo. This was about the same time the Endless Eight started getting to the voters.