AnimeSuki Forums

sento · 2009-03-26, 13:05

I still not get you. HF is clearly the route more Nasu-like in the game, when he puts all his typical Kinoko-Philosophy, linking thematically with Fate/hollow ataraxia with the "worth/meaning" of a life, impossible dreams, eternal life (link with Tsukihime), evolution of the species (link with Notes), importance of your everyday feelings (linking with Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox)... and a long etc... filled with a lot of references as well.

You can say that it's not of your taste, or that as the game says, there are more answers, but you can't say that it's "so unlike Nasu's" because that's not really true.

Well, it's your opinion, ok then. I only stated what the game says.

Tyabann · 2009-03-26, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

TO ME, F/SN ended with the UBW ending

And there's your entire problem. You're trying to justify this belief, and I really don't think it's working.

ShinMasaki · 2009-03-27, 00:05

Either way, whether I'm trying to justify the belief or not, you cannot convince me otherwise, as it is my belief. I am not saying that you guys are wrong in your belief that HF is the ending to F/SN, I'm just giving all these points as to why you wont be able to convince me.

We've already covered that the game offers a question and leaves an answer. Whether you see the answer as being final or not is up to you to decide, that is most likely why it was worded as such.

This topic we are on is simply an argument of opinions, opinions that parties on both sides feel strongly about. We aren't going to come to a resolution to this anytime soon, or ever, unless Nasu himself states otherwise one way or another.

You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate, but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.

Nasulosophy is present in all of his writings regardless of ending. I will agree that HF connects to a lot of his other works, but it is not limited to just HF. UBW you have conflict with your self (Tsuki), ideals vs reality (KnK-A Study in Murder Part 2), belief vs conviction (Notes), and others as well. Of course, you can make the same argument about the Fate storyline with different points of coinciding Nasulosophy. If anything though, inner struggle is perhaps the most universal point of Nasulosophy that I see in his writings. Shiki/Shiki (Tsuki/KnK), Emiya/Archer (F/SN), The Angel/Type-Venus (Notes), Shiki[dream]/Shiki[reality] (Kagetsu Tohya).

Keroko · 2009-03-27, 05:07

.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?

mAc Chaos · 2009-03-27, 06:51

Is HF the one that ends with Kotomine and Shirou beating the stuffings out of each other fist-to-fist? That was pretty cool.

ShinMasaki · 2009-03-27, 13:14

That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.

Tyabann · 2009-03-27, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate

But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?

F/SN is like a linear VN disguised as a route-based VN.

Since you have to play the routes in order, you get this sense of linearity and continuity even though there isn't any.

Probably the best explanation of the plot I've ever heard is the following:

F/SN as a whole represents Shirou's journey into adulthood. In Fate, he is a child, clinging to his ideal no matter what. In UBW, he is like a teenager, trying to have both his ideal and reality. And finally, in HF, he becomes an adult, forsaking his ideal for what really matters in reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.

Finally, something we agree on.

ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.

eiyuu99 · 2009-03-27, 14:05

A person can fervently believe in a lie, regardless how illogical it may be.
Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.

Existence of The Second Magic already suggests Possibilities.

Tyabann · 2009-03-27, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by eiyuu99

Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.

All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.

mAc Chaos · 2009-03-27, 16:40

Yeah, Kotomine is awesome... my friend said he's a BORING character. I don't know how you can think that.

ShinMasaki · 2009-03-27, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.

I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.

Spoiler for saber's motorcycle:

That is the best image of that I can find, I'll upload a better image later from my Type-Moon Ace issue.

Tyabann · 2009-03-27, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.

I had that image as my wallpaper for a while.

So badass.

Supposedly Berserker fights Gilgamesh while in an F-16 or something too.

Deadwings · 2009-03-28, 22:35

Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...

Archer · 2009-03-28, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadwings

Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...

Zouken only carries out his plan when he discovers he could use Shirou (HF). All of the other routes he waits for the next war. Unfortunately for him, the Greater Holy Grail is dismantled shortly afterward the ends of the first two routes.

Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.

ShinMasaki · 2009-03-29, 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadwings

Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...

In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.

Oh, and in addition...

Spoiler for Saber+ motorcycle = win:

...got that better image that I was saying I'd do.

sento · 2009-03-29, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadwings

Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...

The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.

Deadwings · 2009-03-29, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sento

The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.

Thanks for the answers!

Now I can rest in peace (?).
BTW, my favourite route is UBW, I can't get enough of servants battles! I'm now rewatching tha anime and it feels so poor compared to the sensation of the VN

But I must say that I liked HF too. Contrary to Fate and UBW, HF was for more like a heavy drama and not the epic action/love story that were fate and UBW imho. So, evaluating it from a drama point of wiev, I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it

The last thing. Rin FTW!

sento · 2009-03-29, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadwings

I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it

The last thing. Rin FTW!

Use the Realta Nua CGs patch and you will solve that in some way.

ShinMasaki · 2009-03-29, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadwings

Rin FTW!

Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.

aldw · 2009-03-29, 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.

With either F/SN or Tsukihime there's no purely singular 'True Ending', otherwise by that logic Kohaku's route would be the 'true ending' there (and Kohaku is one of Nasu's personal favorites). Nasu himself only spoke about probabilities when asked about all this, and certainly not with the absolute declaratives like George Lucas concerning Star Wars. The hardcore experts on Beast's Lair or Mirror Moon can confirm those points.

F/HA doesn't contradict F/SN if one looks at certain elements of the plot, particularly the space/time accident Rin caused during an experiment at Illya's castle, so a convergence of sorts can be considered from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.

Yep, yep, Azaka and especially Rin are great in my book, Akiha's just a bit too tsun-tsun for my comfort.

2009-03-26, 13:05	Link #1181
sento Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	I still not get you. HF is clearly the route more Nasu-like in the game, when he puts all his typical Kinoko-Philosophy, linking thematically with Fate/hollow ataraxia with the "worth/meaning" of a life, impossible dreams, eternal life (link with Tsukihime), evolution of the species (link with Notes), importance of your everyday feelings (linking with Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox)... and a long etc... filled with a lot of references as well. You can say that it's not of your taste, or that as the game says, there are more answers, but you can't say that it's "so unlike Nasu's" because that's not really true. Well, it's your opinion, ok then. I only stated what the game says.

2009-03-27, 00:05	Link #1183
ShinMasaki バルサミコス Join Date: Oct 2008	Either way, whether I'm trying to justify the belief or not, you cannot convince me otherwise, as it is my belief. I am not saying that you guys are wrong in your belief that HF is the ending to F/SN, I'm just giving all these points as to why you wont be able to convince me. We've already covered that the game offers a question and leaves an answer. Whether you see the answer as being final or not is up to you to decide, that is most likely why it was worded as such. This topic we are on is simply an argument of opinions, opinions that parties on both sides feel strongly about. We aren't going to come to a resolution to this anytime soon, or ever, unless Nasu himself states otherwise one way or another. You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate, but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes. Nasulosophy is present in all of his writings regardless of ending. I will agree that HF connects to a lot of his other works, but it is not limited to just HF. UBW you have conflict with your self (Tsuki), ideals vs reality (KnK-A Study in Murder Part 2), belief vs conviction (Notes), and others as well. Of course, you can make the same argument about the Fate storyline with different points of coinciding Nasulosophy. If anything though, inner struggle is perhaps the most universal point of Nasulosophy that I see in his writings. Shiki/Shiki (Tsuki/KnK), Emiya/Archer (F/SN), The Angel/Type-Venus (Notes), Shiki[dream]/Shiki[reality] (Kagetsu Tohya).

2009-03-27, 05:07	Link #1184
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?

2009-03-27, 06:51	Link #1185
mAc Chaos King of Heroes Join Date: Feb 2009 Age: 38	Is HF the one that ends with Kotomine and Shirou beating the stuffings out of each other fist-to-fist? That was pretty cool.

2009-03-27, 13:14	Link #1186
ShinMasaki バルサミコス Join Date: Oct 2008	That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.

2009-03-27, 14:05	Link #1188
eiyuu99 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	A person can fervently believe in a lie, regardless how illogical it may be. Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence. Existence of The Second Magic already suggests Possibilities.

2009-03-27, 16:40	Link #1190
mAc Chaos King of Heroes Join Date: Feb 2009 Age: 38	Yeah, Kotomine is awesome... my friend said he's a BORING character. I don't know how you can think that.

2009-03-28, 22:35	Link #1193
Deadwings Heaven's Nightmare Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Why should you care? Age: 35	Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything? And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...